When Dr says "men" above I see him primarily referring to leadership of the ministry. I don't see him teaching here about denominational churchgoers outside the ministry.
Do you have any documentation to back up your conjecture about to whom he referred?
1 hour ago, Mike said:
The accuracy of the Word cannot be read from the KJV. The accuracy of the Word cannot be conjured up from stale memories, or learned from verbal traditions like sitting through the film class a lot of times.
I know, that's your story and you're sticking to it. But it has nothing to do with anything on the topic of this thread.
"You have to honestly come to the place that you're willing to keep asking yourself, 'Where did I learn what I believe? How did I get to the place where I believe what I believe today?' For the most part, men believe what they have received from tradition and not from directly reading it in the Word of God."
Btw, Mike, Victor Wierwille MAY have thought or considered that he even asked HIMSELF that/those question(s) EVERY single damn day of his ministry. But evidence recorded in Undertow by Charlene L Edge strongly suggests to me that if he did ask himself those questions, he deceived himself into believing contrary to the reality of his practices.
Was he lying? I can't say. However, I've learned enough about emotional and psychological defense mechanisms (tactics) to lead me to believe he could not bring himself to honestly answer those questions in the way he wanted "his Way Corps(e)" to answer them.
Your theory? Really? As if it's not, instead, what you've come to believe as a result of what someone has taught you?
Your "theory" would suggest you did actual academic research on neurobiology, psychology, social psychology and related disciplines.
If you've read other people's research, bravo. But that wouldn't make any of it "your theory." It COULD make it something you've come to believe through having read the works of actual academicians. I do that kind of thing. But I don't self-aggrandize and call any of it "my theory" or even "my hypothesis."
Just this morning my newsfeed gave me an article that hits this nail on the head about beliefs and self-testing of beliefs and bias. I think this author is politically neutral, but not sure. If this needs to be removed for being too political, I would understand.
I'll just leave a link. It is a MOST interesting article, and the author has lots of other interesting goodies to look at elsewhere.
“Why Smart People Believe Stupid Things” by Gurwinder
Many don’t have an opinion until they’re asked for it, at which point they cobble together a viewpoint from whim and half-remembered hearsay, before deciding that this two-minute-old makeshift opinion will be their new hill to die on.
Solution: Discard all the opinions you thought of instinctively. Resist the reflex to offer impromptu answers, and become comfortable with saying “I don’t yet have enough information.”
That MIGHT be the essence of what Victor Wierwille was trying to suppress when he beckoned PFLAP students to only read PFLAP collaterals.
I'm thinking of you, Mike.
I realize you don't limit your reading to PFLAP materials these days. I also realize you are curious about other things. But ARE you genuinely curious about the veracity of PFLAP and the associated collaterals?
Many don’t have an opinion until they’re asked for it, at which point they cobble together a viewpoint from whim and half-remembered hearsay, before deciding that this two-minute-old makeshift opinion will be their new hill to die on.
If you look at MY theory's Chapter One, I describe the same phenomenon here in the way SOME people define free will.
I actually did informal polls where I asked strangers about free will. Some admitted to making it up on the spot.
I know I also did this in my earlier years looking at free will.
(I define my theory as the 5 chapters that I wrote.)
Btw, Mike, Victor Wierwille MAY have thought or considered that he even asked HIMSELF that/those question(s) EVERY single damn day of his ministry. But evidence recorded in Undertow by Charlene L Edge strongly suggests to me that if he did ask himself those questions, he deceived himself into believing contrary to the reality of his practices.
VPW explains in a couple of places that what he believed God was teaching him to teach to others was superior to what the scholarly world had found with 5-senses methods and discovered manuscripts.
When he became convinced that God was teaching him something, no one could talk him out of it. Once he taught it to us he had finished clearing it with God.
His behavior in honoring his communication with God on this baffled ALL OF US, including me. I have reported on this how I heard Research Dept people complaining about VPW's odd attitudes toward research. This was in 1978, possibly before Charlene noticed the anomalies here.
I've also reported here on the 3 SNS tapes where VPW indicated he respected some manuscripts that were NOT YET FOUND over the existing manuscripts. I often pulled my hair out over that in the 1980s.
It wasn't until I actually FIRST took the 1942 promise seriously in 1998 that all of these odd attitudes of VPW here started to fit perfectly for me.
That MIGHT be the essence of what Victor Wierwille was trying to suppress when he beckoned PFLAP students to only read PFLAP collaterals. ...I'm thinking of you, Mike.
Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?
Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?
Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?
“I'vealso reported here on the 3 SNS tapes where VPW indicated he respected some manuscripts that were NOT YET FOUND over the itexisting manuscripts. I often pulled my hair out over that in the 1980s.”
"It wasn't until I actually FIRST took the 1942 promise seriously in 1998 that all of these odd attitudes of VPW here started to fit perfectly for me."
When I was in what must have been about the second grade or so, I heard something about how diamonds were made. Of course, the explanation was tailored for the understanding of a wide eyed 7 year old boy, filled with wonder of all things scientific. Something about coal and heat and pressure. It sounded like magic. So, along with the kid who lived two houses down the street and was every bit as intrigued as me, I descended deliberately down the stairs that led to the coal cellar and scooped up a handful of what I was sure were potential diamonds. We found some old burlap scraps and tied them up into a makeshift parcel, as tight as we could so they would be tightly squeezed. We took some old twine and hung that parcel from the sunny side of the big maple tree that stood guard over my house. And we waited. And waited. And waited. We desperately wanted those old lumps of coal to somehow become shiny gems. Well, after what seemed like an eternity to a couple of 7 year old boys, curiosity got the best of us and we opened the parcel. Imagine our disappointment in finding nothing had changed.
And so, my friends, the 1942 promise, along with PFAL, is a bit like the contents of that parcel we so tightly wrapped and placed where the heat of the sun could work its magic. Go ahead. Open it up. Look at it closely. Look at it from different angles. Look at it up close and from across the room. Nothing will change. It's still just a couple of lumps of coal, unable to transform into much of anything of real value.
edit: If the parcel fits, you must...uhmm...something.
When he became convinced that God was teaching him something, no one could talk him out of it. Once he taught it to us he had finished clearing it with God.
Oh really!? That is SOOOOOOOOO much crap.
Sure, he became convinced. That's proof? No, it isn't. I believe you know that.
Where were the theologians/scholars with whom he obtained concurrence after presenting his research?
Oh? He didn't, you say?
More evidence of the cultic nature of his personal ministry and the subculture he built around it.
If he was the ONLY one who was able to put it together, that should be evidence enough to warn people of the lack of godly authority for his schtick.
Nevertheless, you seemingly have again succeeded in commandeering a thread and making it about you.
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waysider
When I was in what must have been about the second grade or so, I heard something about how diamonds were made. Of course, the explanation was tailored for the understanding of a wide eyed 7 year old
waysider
I fixed that for you.
Nathan_Jr
Bravo! This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usag
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Rocky
Do you have any documentation to back up your conjecture about to whom he referred?
I know, that's your story and you're sticking to it. But it has nothing to do with anything on the topic of this thread.
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Rocky
Btw, Mike, Victor Wierwille MAY have thought or considered that he even asked HIMSELF that/those question(s) EVERY single damn day of his ministry. But evidence recorded in Undertow by Charlene L Edge strongly suggests to me that if he did ask himself those questions, he deceived himself into believing contrary to the reality of his practices.
Was he lying? I can't say. However, I've learned enough about emotional and psychological defense mechanisms (tactics) to lead me to believe he could not bring himself to honestly answer those questions in the way he wanted "his Way Corps(e)" to answer them.
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Rocky
Your theory? Really? As if it's not, instead, what you've come to believe as a result of what someone has taught you?
Your "theory" would suggest you did actual academic research on neurobiology, psychology, social psychology and related disciplines.
If you've read other people's research, bravo. But that wouldn't make any of it "your theory." It COULD make it something you've come to believe through having read the works of actual academicians. I do that kind of thing. But I don't self-aggrandize and call any of it "my theory" or even "my hypothesis."
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Mike
Just this morning my newsfeed gave me an article that hits this nail on the head about beliefs and self-testing of beliefs and bias. I think this author is politically neutral, but not sure. If this needs to be removed for being too political, I would understand.
I'll just leave a link. It is a MOST interesting article, and the author has lots of other interesting goodies to look at elsewhere.
“Why Smart People Believe Stupid Things” by Gurwinder
https://gurwinder.substack.com/p/why-smart-people-hold-stupid-beliefs?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwAR3QQ1SjWBsGNI4kZbn2xL1w5O3ctG8s12nyKNDaXSz_bCPPkEmAH3LGaUg
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Raf
And the award for Best Example of Missed Irony goes to....
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Mike
...getting nervous?
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Mike
LoL. Not missed irony, but very deliberate irony.
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Nathan_Jr
Irony thinks she is hiding, but I see her.
Here is another good article by Gurwinder.
"Ten Reasons Your Beliefs Are Probably Bull$hit" https://gurwinder.substack.com/p/10-reasons-your-beliefs-are-probably
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Rocky
And speaking of missed (deliberate or not) irony,
9. Gurwinder's Theory of Bespoke ....:
Many don’t have an opinion until they’re asked for it, at which point they cobble together a viewpoint from whim and half-remembered hearsay, before deciding that this two-minute-old makeshift opinion will be their new hill to die on.
Solution: Discard all the opinions you thought of instinctively. Resist the reflex to offer impromptu answers, and become comfortable with saying “I don’t yet have enough information.”
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Rocky
That MIGHT be the essence of what Victor Wierwille was trying to suppress when he beckoned PFLAP students to only read PFLAP collaterals.
I'm thinking of you, Mike.
I realize you don't limit your reading to PFLAP materials these days. I also realize you are curious about other things. But ARE you genuinely curious about the veracity of PFLAP and the associated collaterals?
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Nathan_Jr
Curiosity leads to finding out.
A charlatan’s greatest fear is being found out for who he is.
(Rest is not literally sit. It is not a free radical.)
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Mike
If you look at MY theory's Chapter One, I describe the same phenomenon here in the way SOME people define free will.
I actually did informal polls where I asked strangers about free will. Some admitted to making it up on the spot.
I know I also did this in my earlier years looking at free will.
(I define my theory as the 5 chapters that I wrote.)
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Mike
VPW explains in a couple of places that what he believed God was teaching him to teach to others was superior to what the scholarly world had found with 5-senses methods and discovered manuscripts.
When he became convinced that God was teaching him something, no one could talk him out of it. Once he taught it to us he had finished clearing it with God.
His behavior in honoring his communication with God on this baffled ALL OF US, including me. I have reported on this how I heard Research Dept people complaining about VPW's odd attitudes toward research. This was in 1978, possibly before Charlene noticed the anomalies here.
I've also reported here on the 3 SNS tapes where VPW indicated he respected some manuscripts that were NOT YET FOUND over the existing manuscripts. I often pulled my hair out over that in the 1980s.
It wasn't until I actually FIRST took the 1942 promise seriously in 1998 that all of these odd attitudes of VPW here started to fit perfectly for me.
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Mike
What I find interesting about these articles by Gerwinder is that they apply so well to atheist and agnostic beliefs.
What do you find interesting about them?
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Mike
Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?
Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?
Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?
Or are you thinking of some thing else?
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Nathan_Jr
It sounds like you are suggesting I am an atheist or an agnostic.
I have never claimed either of those labels for myself. Not here or anywhere.
Not on a boat, not with a goat; not in a house, not with a mouse…
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Mike
I am suggesting that you have a belief system.
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Nathan_Jr
“I've also reported here on the 3 SNS tapes where VPW indicated he respected some manuscripts that were NOT YET FOUND over the itexisting manuscripts. I often pulled my hair out over that in the 1980s.”
What more could be said?
Just let it sit (rest) there like a duck.
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Nathan_Jr
A system? A belief system?
I don’t believe in beleeef (accurate spelling according to literal usage in the original).
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Nathan_Jr
Ooops!
"It wasn't until I actually FIRST took the 1942 promise seriously in 1998 that all of these odd attitudes of VPW here started to fit perfectly for me."
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waysider
When I was in what must have been about the second grade or so, I heard something about how diamonds were made. Of course, the explanation was tailored for the understanding of a wide eyed 7 year old boy, filled with wonder of all things scientific. Something about coal and heat and pressure. It sounded like magic. So, along with the kid who lived two houses down the street and was every bit as intrigued as me, I descended deliberately down the stairs that led to the coal cellar and scooped up a handful of what I was sure were potential diamonds. We found some old burlap scraps and tied them up into a makeshift parcel, as tight as we could so they would be tightly squeezed. We took some old twine and hung that parcel from the sunny side of the big maple tree that stood guard over my house. And we waited. And waited. And waited. We desperately wanted those old lumps of coal to somehow become shiny gems. Well, after what seemed like an eternity to a couple of 7 year old boys, curiosity got the best of us and we opened the parcel. Imagine our disappointment in finding nothing had changed.
And so, my friends, the 1942 promise, along with PFAL, is a bit like the contents of that parcel we so tightly wrapped and placed where the heat of the sun could work its magic. Go ahead. Open it up. Look at it closely. Look at it from different angles. Look at it up close and from across the room. Nothing will change. It's still just a couple of lumps of coal, unable to transform into much of anything of real value.
edit: If the parcel fits, you must...uhmm...something.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Rocky
Oh really!? That is SOOOOOOOOO much crap.
Sure, he became convinced. That's proof? No, it isn't. I believe you know that.
Where were the theologians/scholars with whom he obtained concurrence after presenting his research?
Oh? He didn't, you say?
More evidence of the cultic nature of his personal ministry and the subculture he built around it.
If he was the ONLY one who was able to put it together, that should be evidence enough to warn people of the lack of godly authority for his schtick.
Nevertheless, you seemingly have again succeeded in commandeering a thread and making it about you.
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