Victor seized on things he read in the Bible to highlight and accentuate what he wanted to do and to be.
WE were "called out." WE were in the world, but NOT "of the world."
He traveled around to "bless the believers" and teach the "greatness of the Word of God." But he was an alcoholic, consumed filtered Kool menthol cigarettes like a factory smokestack, and acted like he was the King to whom every young, attractive female believer BELONGED. As such, he promulgated unwritten norms according to which men and women followers would procure (often willing) sex partners.
Wierwille established substantial revenue streams by way of selling classes, books and pamphlets, and teaching that God won't even spit in your direction unless you "abundantly share" more than 10 percent of your meager earnings... believers were often expected to donate at least 15 percent.
Wierwille's private interpretation ministry established outreach programs. WOW Ambassadors made commitments of a year at a time to go in teams of about 4 at a time to a city or town to sell the foundational class and try to graft new believers onto The Way Tree.
Then there was the Way Corps leadership training program. Colloquially referred to at times by former followers as the Way Corpse.
That program was sold (or appealed to) as for committed Bible believers who wanted to be and do their best for God.
The training consisted of a year at a time in a ministry location (i.e. HQ in New Knoxville, OH; The Way College of Emporia, in Kansas a ranch in Gunnison, CO and a campus in Rome City, IN)
Much of the abusive conduct wannabe leaders endured and learned to repeat took place in the WOW Ambassador and Way Corps programs.
How about practicing some understanding of Wierwille and Martindale, after all, they are only human beings, and as pointed out in the video, deserving of forgiveness.
Many people have had to find the inner strength to forgive those who have murdered their loved ones. There are murders who have been spared the death penalty only because the victim’s survivors asked the authorities to not execute them. Only then could they move on with their lives.
How about practicing some understanding of Wierwille and Martindale, after all, they are only human beings, and as pointed out in the video, deserving of forgiveness.
Many people have had to find the inner strength to forgive those who have murdered their loved ones. There are murders who have been spared the death penalty only because the victim’s survivors asked the authorities to not execute them. Only then could they move on with their lives.
Well... thank you, you made an excellent point.
1) I didn't say they were undeserving of forgiveness. I didn't think I was implying it either.
2) Looking back on the post and comments I made above, I'm wondering how you may have come to conclude, or even infer I was equating either of them to murderers. If you'd be so kind, I would appreciate you expounding about that on this thread.
3) Considering the two decades of people writing about their experiences on GSC, let me clarify my intent as being to criticize the actions each of the two of them took as cult leaders, and criticize the cult structure and conduct related thereto. There's plenty to show and tell about the power dynamics in and of themselves.
4) Again, thank you for reading and watching the videos.
It must be my incorrect wording, but I did not mean to imply you were equating Wierwille or Martindale to murderers. I only used the anology of murderers to illustrate that survivors found it necessary to forgive the murderers for their crimes in order to move on with their lives. The anology could have been someone spreading lies about them, stealing their money, taking credit for doing something another performed, or you can fill in the blamks with your own examples.
If one believes in the bible it is apparent Jesus certainly practiced forgiveness, as he forgave those who crucified him, as they were crucifying him. It did’nt take him decades, years, weeks, or days to forgive them, but immediately. Can you image yourself being kidnapped, raped, hog tied, beaten, pistol whipped, thrown in the trunk of a car, driven to another spot, removed from the trunk, dragged to an awaiting hole in the ground, a shotgun aimed at your head, and you knowing full well you will be dead in the hole soon, and your final thought and words being, “I forgive you because you don’t know what you are doing?”
Again, if one believes in the bible, it says you can do greater works than Jesus, so the above scenario is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Wierwiile and Martindale definitely controlled and manipulated us, but nothing they did compared to murder, so us forgiving them should not be an over stretch or out of the realm of possibilities.
Wierwiile and Martindale definitely controlled and manipulated us, but nothing they did compared to murder, so us forgiving them should not be an over stretch or out of the realm of possibilities.
Forgiveness and critical analysis of the Victor Wierwille private interpretation ministry are complicated matters. Doing so requires assessment of the emotional fallout on the people who had been subject to abuse, whether it was emotional abuse or sexual abuse or anything else.
Forgiveness and critical analysis of the Victor Wierwille private interpretation ministry are complicated matters. Doing so requires assessment of the emotional fallout on the people who had been subject to abuse, whether it was emotional abuse or sexual abuse or anything else.
Nevertheless, I appreciate your feedback, STL.
The primary (and underlying) point I intended in the first posts on this thread was how Victor Wierwille and Loy C Martindale presented themselves to followers in extremely INAUTHENTIC ways. My point was not to color them unforgivable, for they were/are human. What they were NOT is honest brokers of God to followers who purchased their classes and books and who took part in their outreach and leadership training programs.
Self-deprecating humor is, or can be, a much more authentic way to CONNECT emotionally.
Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Forgiveness is never for the forgiven.
For the awakened, reality and truth are presented on the end of a club whacked upside the head. The ringing bell is violent disillusionment. Clarity is a brutal, unexpected visitor.
Though finally free and clear of the cult leader or the NPD, the awakened, for a time, may imprison themselves in a cage of resentment.
Real healing for the awakened survivor begins with letting go of the resentment, the anger.
However, the survivors of VPW and LCM and the NPD are fully justified in their anger and resentment. When I say fully justified, I mean completely, completely complete in justification.
The awakened survivor need not forget. Never, ever forget! Moving on with healing doesn’t mean ignoring the fraud, the spiritual crimes and the spiritual and physical rape.
Examining and analyzing quacks like LCM and VPW is important for many reasons, including healing, but the examining and analyzing need not imply a lack of forgiveness or inability to move on. This is important, noble work for the current and next generations.
Forgiveness is letting go of the righteously justified anger. It is for the forgiver only.
How about practicing some understanding of Wierwille and Martindale, after all, they are only human beings, and as pointed out in the video, deserving of forgiveness.
Many people have had to find the inner strength to forgive those who have murdered their loved ones. There are murders who have been spared the death penalty only because the victim’s survivors asked the authorities to not execute them. Only then could they move on with their lives.
Whenever the topic of cults and the evil actions of founders and top leaders come up, there is always this argument present.
I call this the “whitewash argument”. It masks as forgiveness, but the unintended extended consequence is that it excuses the evil behavior of the leaders and hides it due to people being imperfect.
This is the exact lie that all of the current top leaders in TWI tell themselves every day. “Well VP and Craig weren’t perfect, or Rosalie or the current clowns. I’m not perfect either. It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”
Saying that Craig and Rosalie for that matter should be serving a prison sentence rather than lavishing in their current situations has nothing to do with my emotional recovery from the cult they lead or did lead.
No I’m not immersing my head in the evil and making my whole life about revenge but that doesn’t discount the evil that happened and will continue to happen if people don’t wake up to the reality and stop accepting people lying to you.
I am long past forgiving people for their personal actions related to my life. It is really funny though how whenever I call out the truth of something it always wraps back around to some judging me for being “unforgiving”.
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
Wierwille's private interpretation ministry established outreach programs. WOW Ambassadors made commitments of a year at a time to go in teams of about 4 at a time to a city or town to sell the foundational class and try to graft new believers onto The Way Tree.
Then there was the Way Corps leadership training program. Colloquially referred to at times by former followers as the Way Corpse.
That program was sold (or appealed to) as for committed Bible believers who wanted to be and do their best for God.
The training consisted of a year at a time in a ministry location (i.e. HQ in New Knoxville, OH; The Way College of Emporia, in Kansas a ranch in Gunnison, CO and a campus in Rome City, IN)
Much of the abusive conduct wannabe leaders endured and learned to repeat took place in the WOW Ambassador and Way Corps programs.
So I look at the outreach and leadership programs of mainstream Christianity.
And I look at the outreach and leadership programs of TWI.
I see more similarities in the practicality of functioning between large cults (Mormons, JWs, Scientology) than I see similarities between TWI and any group of mainstream Christianity.
The mainstream Christian groups collaborate, share money and resources, share leadership, and are based upon collaboration with others in the body of Christ.
TWI is based upon exclusivity and complete control. Like the other major cults they feel mainstream Christianity has gone “apostate” and no longer represent the truth of Christ in our day and time. Rather than lose that complete control they are moving to a third world expansion model.
Paul warned of those who made shipwreck of “the family faith”. That is TWI. Building more Titanics to experience their maiden voyage.
This is the exact lie that all of the current top leaders in TWI tell themselves every day. “Well VP and Craig weren’t perfect, or Rosalie or the current clowns. I’m not perfect either. It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”
They must believe their way into knowing that they know that they know this.
How do they know it’s the best thing? They simply decide it is and believe it.
This is why I say there is no place for belief where Truth is concerned.
If one believes in the bible it is apparent Jesus certainly practiced forgiveness, as he forgave those who crucified him, as they were crucifying him. It did’nt take him decades, years, weeks, or days to forgive them, but immediately. Can you image yourself being kidnapped, raped, hog tied, beaten, pistol whipped, thrown in the trunk of a car, driven to another spot, removed from the trunk, dragged to an awaiting hole in the ground, a shotgun aimed at your head, and you knowing full well you will be dead in the hole soon, and your final thought and words being, “I forgive you because you don’t know what you are doing?”
Again, if one believes in the bible, it says you can do greater works than Jesus, so the above scenario is certainly within the realm of possibility.
One interesting point here is research points to a distinction in the audience Jesus was addressing.
The foot soldiers who were carrying out crucifixion orders were among those addressed directly there.
It is arguable that he was extending this to the Pharisee group that were arranging his crucifixion or the local authorities like Herod making the decisions. Many noted researchers draw the distinction in audience here not just me. Plenty to learn if you study it.
There are a lot of things within the realm of possibility. The whole “greater works” is a schtick of VPW that he hyped up in his class to try and show that mandated glossallalia was greater than what Jesus did on earth. It also is anti Christ as it puts someone or some ministry in the place of Christ between you and God reconciling people to God. Which is beyond their authority. The genuine ministry of reconciliation referred to in scripture reconciles people to God via Christ. It doesn’t reconcile people with a ministry, a leadership group, a hamster wheel to run on with the benefits going to an organization of men.
It doesn’t say “forgive VP, Craig, Rosalie, and current doofuses and come on home”.
God that “greater works” misinterpretation to pump up a man’s ego and exhort him to bondage annoys me. Jesus was simply encouraging them to carry on on the faith he started because he was soon ascending.
But noooooooooooooooooo.
We learned in Plaffy that it is Gods Will for people not only to be saved but come to an experiential knowledge of the truth. And the only way they can do that is ….. wait for it ………………………………….
more Plaffy!
See it is a a self solving problem!
Now all that’s left is for the grifters to go shopping!
Whenever the topic of cults and the evil actions of founders and top leaders come up, there is always this argument present.
I call this the “whitewash argument”. It masks as forgiveness, but the unintended extended consequence is that it excuses the evil behavior of the leaders and hides it due to people being imperfect.
Whitewash argument? You have taken it upon yourself to read into something I never said or implied. I provided the example of your lord and savior, Jesus Christ, forgiving those who had tortured and crucified him. Then wrote out a possible scenario of a Christian being murdered, and before they died, forgaving their murderer.
I expected someone who is a Christian to say they felt the mrdered person was correct to forgive their rapist and murderer. But, the white elephant in the room, has been ignored by all. In stead you come up with a whitewash argument.
I was duped as much as anyone in TWI, being a part of it for over 20 years, but knew I should have left years before I was M & A. Why didn’t I leave? Because I didn’t have a support system outside of TWI and didn’t want to lose my rewards.
This is the exact lie that all of the current top leaders in TWI tell themselves every day. “Well VP and Craig weren’t perfect, or Rosalie or the current clowns. I’m not perfect either. It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”
Who has put forth this argument? I never said anything mounting to, “It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”
Saying that Craig and Rosalie for that matter should be serving a prison sentence rather than lavishing in their current situations has nothing to do with my emotional recovery from the cult they lead or did lead.
LCM & TWI have to some degree been held responsible; Craig was kicked out and TWI has been sued in court. Apparently neither has committed any criminal activity so no prison sentence is appropriate.
No I’m not immersing my head in the evil and making my whole life about revenge but that doesn’t discount the evil that happened and will continue to happen if people don’t wake up to the reality and stop accepting people lying to you.
I am long past forgiving people for their personal actions related to my life. It is really funny though how whenever I call out the truth of something it always wraps back around to some judging me for being “unforgiving”.
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
You had a whole graphic fictional incident that sounded like a gang kidnapping.
Then you drew a parallel to Jesus forgiving his murderers.
And hyped up greater works than Christ like the PFAL class. But these greater works according to you are measured by how immediately we forgave Craig or VP.
I have no idea if VP or Craig ever asked for my forgiveness. I’m thinking no.
It does seem like you are getting to your point though - “no prison sentence would be appropriate” - yes it was very difficult to get anything on Warren Jeffs despite overt illegal acts for decades. But Craig induced a suicide by his adultery and VP drugged and raped young women on his bus with assistance from Geer. And exposed himself to a woman who may have been underage at the time from a published book account.
But hey no punishment would be appropriate, right chief?
You had a whole graphic fictional incident that sounded like a gang kidnapping.
Then you drew a parallel to Jesus forgiving his murderers.
And hyped up greater works than Christ like the PFAL class. But these greater works according to you are measured by how immediately we forgave Craig or VP.
I have no idea if VP or Craig ever asked for my forgiveness. I’m thinking no.
It does seem like you are getting to your point though - “no prison sentence would be appropriate” - yes it was very difficult to get anything on Warren Jeffs despite overt illegal acts for decades. But Craig induced a suicide by his adultery and VP drugged and raped young women on his bus with assistance from Geer. And exposed himself to a woman who may have been underage at the time from a published book account.
But hey no punishment would be appropriate, right chief?
Chief?
My INITIAL point was not “no prison sentence would be appropriate.” It was that some people need to forgive their wrong doers to move on in lives. Then I pointed out Jesus did exactly that as he was being executed by crucifiction. Then presented a possible present day scenario of someone being executed and wondered if they could forgive their executione’s as Jesus did? If Jesus forgave then it probably would be a good idea for his followers to forgive.
As far as prosecuting LCM or VPW goes, VPW is dead, and if there is evidence LCM broke the law, bring it to a a prosecuter. Someone killing themselves because of LCM’s actions is terrible, but, I don’t believe, a crime.
One interesting point here is research points to a distinction in the audience Jesus was addressing.
The foot soldiers who were carrying out crucifixion orders were among those addressed directly there.
It is arguable that he was extending this to the Pharisee group that were arranging his crucifixion or the local authorities like Herod making the decisions. Many noted researchers draw the distinction in audience here not just me. Plenty to learn if you study it.
In your studies of this event, who do you believe may be not included in Jesus’ forgiveness?
There are a lot of things within the realm of possibility. The whole “greater works” is a schtick of VPW that he hyped up in his class to try and show that mandated glossallalia was greater than what Jesus did on earth. It also is anti Christ as it puts someone or some ministry in the place of Christ between you and God reconciling people to God. Which is beyond their authority. The genuine ministry of reconciliation referred to in scripture reconciles people to God via Christ. It doesn’t reconcile people with a ministry, a leadership group, a hamster wheel to run on with the benefits going to an organization of men.
Let’s forget about the minstry of reconciliation you refer too, but logically, we should be able to do at least the works Christ performed.
It doesn’t say “forgive VP, Craig, Rosalie, and current doofuses and come on home”.
Does any scripture you believe is about you, list your name specifically?
God that “greater works” misinterpretation to pump up a man’s ego and exhort him to bondage annoys me. Jesus was simply encouraging them to carry on on the faith he started because he was soon ascending.
The scripture says we will perform greater works than Christ, so you can be annoyed all you want insisting it is simply encouraging people to carry on their faith. If Jesus only wanted to envourage them, he would have used words encouraging them.
But noooooooooooooooooo.
We learned in Plaffy that it is Gods Will for people not only to be saved but come to an experiential knowledge of the truth. And the only way they can do that is ….. wait for it ………………………………….
more Plaffy!
See it is a a self solving problem!
Now all that’s left is for the grifters to go shopping!
In the Bible does it say if you confess your sins then God is faithful to forgive your sins? Or it doesn’t say that in your Bible?
If that is true then what is your conclusion on forgiveness? Is there recognition and / or action required on the part of the sinner or they can just keep on the exact same evil lifestyle and God and everyone else needs to forgive them because you say so?
I read Jesus words of encouragement to his followers who revered and worshipped him as just that - words of encouragement and a figure of speech regarding “greater works”.
If you believe the “greater works” is literal then maybe you could list out the things you have done in your life that are greater than what Christ did and we can all compare notes.
Or as you say list out the works you have done that are equal to Christs works since it is so logical.
To me scripture is for inspiration. So yes it is personal. But the wrong dividing of scripture produces bondage not freedom. So I take issue with the wrong dividing of scripture that leads people to bondage. Like PFAL and the law of victim blaming. Wait that’s law of believing.
The Way International is the only environment I have been in where it is never talked about sinners repenting. Repentance is a mental state recognizing past action as being sin and against Gods truth and resolving to change the behavior.
Interestingly all of the 12 step programs absolutely are centered around repentance and change. And they have shown results for millions.
Repentence is never part of TWI because those sinners never repent - they double down on “grace administration” logic and bury and whitewash sin on the part of the leaders, then hold the laymen’s feet to the fire because they are “not believing”.
That is one of the main reasons why it is a cult as opposed to genuine Christianity.
The Way International is the only environment I have been in where it is never talked about sinners repenting. Repentance is a mental state recognizing past action as being sin and against Gods truth and resolving to change the behavior.
Interestingly all of the 12 step programs absolutely are centered around repentance and change. And they have shown results for millions.
Repentence is never part of TWI because those sinners never repent - they double down on “grace administration” logic and bury and whitewash sin on the part of the leaders, then hold the laymen’s feet to the fire because they are “not believing”.
That is one of the main reasons why it is a cult as opposed to genuine Christianity.
Interesting point. I know of two ex-way people who shared that this doctrine and practice of twi you mention above led them into a gradual descent into sin that they had to deal with after leaving twi. I personally don't remember hearing much about repentance and I honestly can't remember doing much of it myself during my 12 years of involvement. What I do have vivid memories of is the "being out of fellowship" doctrine because of the fear that was attached to it like losing God's hedge of protection. This included the sin of disagreeing with vp's teachings and not following leaders' demands.
As a result, I would stop doing something that I believed caused me to be out of fellowship, but I really don't remember confessing it as sin to God our father. Being in and out of fellowship was a reality because of what I knew about the sin nature as written in Romans 7.
I realize that there is no mention of repentance in that chapter and then it's followed up with chapter 8:1 saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." That verse was taught to mean something it doesn't say at all and it in no way exonerates twi from not focusing on repentance. The epistles contain lists of actions that God calls sin and needs to be repented of according to 1 John. Even certain Christian acts are without profit to the believer if done without the love of God.
Twi is without excuse for what crap they taught and what truth they ignored or denied.
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chockfull
Whenever the topic of cults and the evil actions of founders and top leaders come up, there is always this argument present. I call this the “whitewash argument”. It masks as forgiveness, but th
Nathan_Jr
I was never in TWI. I can't relate to a direct experience with victor or loy or the corporation. I was able to discern within the first 12 minutes of PFAL that victor was complete fraud. However
Nathan_Jr
Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Forgiveness is never for the forgiven. For the awakened, reality and truth are presented on the end of a club whacked upside the head. The ringing bell is violent
Rocky
Victor seized on things he read in the Bible to highlight and accentuate what he wanted to do and to be.
WE were "called out." WE were in the world, but NOT "of the world."
He traveled around to "bless the believers" and teach the "greatness of the Word of God." But he was an alcoholic, consumed filtered Kool menthol cigarettes like a factory smokestack, and acted like he was the King to whom every young, attractive female believer BELONGED. As such, he promulgated unwritten norms according to which men and women followers would procure (often willing) sex partners.
Wierwille established substantial revenue streams by way of selling classes, books and pamphlets, and teaching that God won't even spit in your direction unless you "abundantly share" more than 10 percent of your meager earnings... believers were often expected to donate at least 15 percent.
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Rocky
Wierwille's private interpretation ministry established outreach programs. WOW Ambassadors made commitments of a year at a time to go in teams of about 4 at a time to a city or town to sell the foundational class and try to graft new believers onto The Way Tree.
Then there was the Way Corps leadership training program. Colloquially referred to at times by former followers as the Way Corpse.
That program was sold (or appealed to) as for committed Bible believers who wanted to be and do their best for God.
The training consisted of a year at a time in a ministry location (i.e. HQ in New Knoxville, OH; The Way College of Emporia, in Kansas a ranch in Gunnison, CO and a campus in Rome City, IN)
Much of the abusive conduct wannabe leaders endured and learned to repeat took place in the WOW Ambassador and Way Corps programs.
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Rocky
Here's another thing to consider. Intuitively, we know politics is as polarized as ever in today's society.
Why is that? Could it be related to something Victor W and other religious leaders pushed about us all being in the world but not of the world?
Is that why so many people are immune to exploring and considering common ground?
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Stayed Too Long
How about practicing some understanding of Wierwille and Martindale, after all, they are only human beings, and as pointed out in the video, deserving of forgiveness.
Edited by Stayed Too LongMany people have had to find the inner strength to forgive those who have murdered their loved ones. There are murders who have been spared the death penalty only because the victim’s survivors asked the authorities to not execute them. Only then could they move on with their lives.
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Rocky
Well... thank you, you made an excellent point.
1) I didn't say they were undeserving of forgiveness. I didn't think I was implying it either.
2) Looking back on the post and comments I made above, I'm wondering how you may have come to conclude, or even infer I was equating either of them to murderers. If you'd be so kind, I would appreciate you expounding about that on this thread.
3) Considering the two decades of people writing about their experiences on GSC, let me clarify my intent as being to criticize the actions each of the two of them took as cult leaders, and criticize the cult structure and conduct related thereto. There's plenty to show and tell about the power dynamics in and of themselves.
4) Again, thank you for reading and watching the videos.
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Stayed Too Long
It must be my incorrect wording, but I did not mean to imply you were equating Wierwille or Martindale to murderers. I only used the anology of murderers to illustrate that survivors found it necessary to forgive the murderers for their crimes in order to move on with their lives. The anology could have been someone spreading lies about them, stealing their money, taking credit for doing something another performed, or you can fill in the blamks with your own examples.
If one believes in the bible it is apparent Jesus certainly practiced forgiveness, as he forgave those who crucified him, as they were crucifying him. It did’nt take him decades, years, weeks, or days to forgive them, but immediately. Can you image yourself being kidnapped, raped, hog tied, beaten, pistol whipped, thrown in the trunk of a car, driven to another spot, removed from the trunk, dragged to an awaiting hole in the ground, a shotgun aimed at your head, and you knowing full well you will be dead in the hole soon, and your final thought and words being, “I forgive you because you don’t know what you are doing?”
Again, if one believes in the bible, it says you can do greater works than Jesus, so the above scenario is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Wierwiile and Martindale definitely controlled and manipulated us, but nothing they did compared to murder, so us forgiving them should not be an over stretch or out of the realm of possibilities.
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Rocky
Forgiveness and critical analysis of the Victor Wierwille private interpretation ministry are complicated matters. Doing so requires assessment of the emotional fallout on the people who had been subject to abuse, whether it was emotional abuse or sexual abuse or anything else.
Nevertheless, I appreciate your feedback, STL.
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Rocky
The primary (and underlying) point I intended in the first posts on this thread was how Victor Wierwille and Loy C Martindale presented themselves to followers in extremely INAUTHENTIC ways. My point was not to color them unforgivable, for they were/are human. What they were NOT is honest brokers of God to followers who purchased their classes and books and who took part in their outreach and leadership training programs.
Self-deprecating humor is, or can be, a much more authentic way to CONNECT emotionally.
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Nathan_Jr
Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Forgiveness is never for the forgiven.
For the awakened, reality and truth are presented on the end of a club whacked upside the head. The ringing bell is violent disillusionment. Clarity is a brutal, unexpected visitor.
Though finally free and clear of the cult leader or the NPD, the awakened, for a time, may imprison themselves in a cage of resentment.
Real healing for the awakened survivor begins with letting go of the resentment, the anger.
However, the survivors of VPW and LCM and the NPD are fully justified in their anger and resentment. When I say fully justified, I mean completely, completely complete in justification.
The awakened survivor need not forget. Never, ever forget! Moving on with healing doesn’t mean ignoring the fraud, the spiritual crimes and the spiritual and physical rape.
Examining and analyzing quacks like LCM and VPW is important for many reasons, including healing, but the examining and analyzing need not imply a lack of forgiveness or inability to move on. This is important, noble work for the current and next generations.
Forgiveness is letting go of the righteously justified anger. It is for the forgiver only.
The forgiven will certainly get his on that day.
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chockfull
Whenever the topic of cults and the evil actions of founders and top leaders come up, there is always this argument present.
I call this the “whitewash argument”. It masks as forgiveness, but the unintended extended consequence is that it excuses the evil behavior of the leaders and hides it due to people being imperfect.
This is the exact lie that all of the current top leaders in TWI tell themselves every day. “Well VP and Craig weren’t perfect, or Rosalie or the current clowns. I’m not perfect either. It’s the best thing we’ve got in an imperfect world.”
Saying that Craig and Rosalie for that matter should be serving a prison sentence rather than lavishing in their current situations has nothing to do with my emotional recovery from the cult they lead or did lead.
No I’m not immersing my head in the evil and making my whole life about revenge but that doesn’t discount the evil that happened and will continue to happen if people don’t wake up to the reality and stop accepting people lying to you.
I am long past forgiving people for their personal actions related to my life. It is really funny though how whenever I call out the truth of something it always wraps back around to some judging me for being “unforgiving”.
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
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chockfull
So I look at the outreach and leadership programs of mainstream Christianity.
And I look at the outreach and leadership programs of TWI.
I see more similarities in the practicality of functioning between large cults (Mormons, JWs, Scientology) than I see similarities between TWI and any group of mainstream Christianity.
The mainstream Christian groups collaborate, share money and resources, share leadership, and are based upon collaboration with others in the body of Christ.
TWI is based upon exclusivity and complete control. Like the other major cults they feel mainstream Christianity has gone “apostate” and no longer represent the truth of Christ in our day and time. Rather than lose that complete control they are moving to a third world expansion model.
Paul warned of those who made shipwreck of “the family faith”. That is TWI. Building more Titanics to experience their maiden voyage.
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Nathan_Jr
They must believe their way into knowing that they know that they know this.
How do they know it’s the best thing? They simply decide it is and believe it.
This is why I say there is no place for belief where Truth is concerned.
Look. Watch. Pray. Find out.
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Rocky
Completely without data or any other kind of potential rational information. In doing so, they build their own parochial mental construct.
Overall your comment is salient and well spoken (written). However, I suggest this tweak...
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chockfull
Thanks. I draw a distinction between major cults with membership rolls many times that of TWI and other cults.
They function differently.
So I will retain the original for greater clarity detail.
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chockfull
One interesting point here is research points to a distinction in the audience Jesus was addressing.
The foot soldiers who were carrying out crucifixion orders were among those addressed directly there.
It is arguable that he was extending this to the Pharisee group that were arranging his crucifixion or the local authorities like Herod making the decisions. Many noted researchers draw the distinction in audience here not just me. Plenty to learn if you study it.
There are a lot of things within the realm of possibility. The whole “greater works” is a schtick of VPW that he hyped up in his class to try and show that mandated glossallalia was greater than what Jesus did on earth. It also is anti Christ as it puts someone or some ministry in the place of Christ between you and God reconciling people to God. Which is beyond their authority. The genuine ministry of reconciliation referred to in scripture reconciles people to God via Christ. It doesn’t reconcile people with a ministry, a leadership group, a hamster wheel to run on with the benefits going to an organization of men.
It doesn’t say “forgive VP, Craig, Rosalie, and current doofuses and come on home”.
God that “greater works” misinterpretation to pump up a man’s ego and exhort him to bondage annoys me. Jesus was simply encouraging them to carry on on the faith he started because he was soon ascending.
But noooooooooooooooooo.
We learned in Plaffy that it is Gods Will for people not only to be saved but come to an experiential knowledge of the truth. And the only way they can do that is ….. wait for it ………………………………….
more Plaffy!
See it is a a self solving problem!
Now all that’s left is for the grifters to go shopping!
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Rocky
So you're saying somehow Twi is a major cult? How so? Please clarify.
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chockfull
Bigger than a tomato smaller than a moon.
I’m noting similar tactics of isolation and control. All pretty well defined within Hussein BITE model.
That model doesn’t really apply to most churches, civic groups, meetups, groups. But it does apply to the major cults.
The minor cults can be even more controlling. Heavens Gate, Davidians, white supremacists, gangs, biker clubs, etc.
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
You had a whole graphic fictional incident that sounded like a gang kidnapping.
Then you drew a parallel to Jesus forgiving his murderers.
And hyped up greater works than Christ like the PFAL class. But these greater works according to you are measured by how immediately we forgave Craig or VP.
I have no idea if VP or Craig ever asked for my forgiveness. I’m thinking no.
It does seem like you are getting to your point though - “no prison sentence would be appropriate” - yes it was very difficult to get anything on Warren Jeffs despite overt illegal acts for decades. But Craig induced a suicide by his adultery and VP drugged and raped young women on his bus with assistance from Geer. And exposed himself to a woman who may have been underage at the time from a published book account.
But hey no punishment would be appropriate, right chief?
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Stayed Too Long
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
In the Bible does it say if you confess your sins then God is faithful to forgive your sins? Or it doesn’t say that in your Bible?
If that is true then what is your conclusion on forgiveness? Is there recognition and / or action required on the part of the sinner or they can just keep on the exact same evil lifestyle and God and everyone else needs to forgive them because you say so?
I read Jesus words of encouragement to his followers who revered and worshipped him as just that - words of encouragement and a figure of speech regarding “greater works”.
If you believe the “greater works” is literal then maybe you could list out the things you have done in your life that are greater than what Christ did and we can all compare notes.
Or as you say list out the works you have done that are equal to Christs works since it is so logical.
To me scripture is for inspiration. So yes it is personal. But the wrong dividing of scripture produces bondage not freedom. So I take issue with the wrong dividing of scripture that leads people to bondage. Like PFAL and the law of victim blaming. Wait that’s law of believing.
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chockfull
The Way International is the only environment I have been in where it is never talked about sinners repenting. Repentance is a mental state recognizing past action as being sin and against Gods truth and resolving to change the behavior.
Interestingly all of the 12 step programs absolutely are centered around repentance and change. And they have shown results for millions.
Repentence is never part of TWI because those sinners never repent - they double down on “grace administration” logic and bury and whitewash sin on the part of the leaders, then hold the laymen’s feet to the fire because they are “not believing”.
That is one of the main reasons why it is a cult as opposed to genuine Christianity.
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Charity
Interesting point. I know of two ex-way people who shared that this doctrine and practice of twi you mention above led them into a gradual descent into sin that they had to deal with after leaving twi. I personally don't remember hearing much about repentance and I honestly can't remember doing much of it myself during my 12 years of involvement. What I do have vivid memories of is the "being out of fellowship" doctrine because of the fear that was attached to it like losing God's hedge of protection. This included the sin of disagreeing with vp's teachings and not following leaders' demands.
As a result, I would stop doing something that I believed caused me to be out of fellowship, but I really don't remember confessing it as sin to God our father. Being in and out of fellowship was a reality because of what I knew about the sin nature as written in Romans 7.
I realize that there is no mention of repentance in that chapter and then it's followed up with chapter 8:1 saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." That verse was taught to mean something it doesn't say at all and it in no way exonerates twi from not focusing on repentance. The epistles contain lists of actions that God calls sin and needs to be repented of according to 1 John. Even certain Christian acts are without profit to the believer if done without the love of God.
Twi is without excuse for what crap they taught and what truth they ignored or denied.
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