The logic of jumping from stopping the problem to never existing is broken, imo.
But back to the original statement that so many got blessed, why stop it?
You see it in every day life, OM. Some "upstanding citizen" is found to be a rapist or a pedophile or a thief. So many people got so much good from this person, why put him/her in jail for his/her crimes? Why stop him/her?
quote: You see it in every day life, OM. Some "upstanding citizen" is found to be a rapist or a pedophile or a thief. So many people got so much good from this person, why put him/her in jail for his/her crimes? Why stop him/her?
Coolwaters, you're comparing one person who went bad, to TWI that was still doing godly things despite the evil works (with most of it very secretive)and reaching folks with the Word who needed and appreciated it. As Zixar pointed out, TWI was comprised of lots of folks who stood faithful and made a difference, despite VPW. I wouldn't have canned the whole thing because VPW took liberties he shouldn't have. I think that's the dead wrong way to look at it.
It could very well be that canning the whole thing because of many (not just vpw or lcm) bad apples is not logical to you. You report a far better twi experience than what I ever had.
However, vpw could have and should have (imo) done exactly what he threatened to do so many, many times...take it all down and build it again.
Why? Because he knew that the problem was systemic. He knew that the very structure of twi (corporate) allowed...no, required...that there be rank and file...and that such a system would breed the problems that happened in twi.
A restructuring is not bad, OM. The Catholic church is doing it now in response to what has happened with pedophilia.
But I gotta tell you...when my brother or sister says to me that if I would have just behaved better I wouldn't have been so badly abused...well...that's not logical...especially when they prefer to deny what happened.
Once again, you have brilliantly missed the point CW is making. It wasn't just "one person who went bad." Evil infilitrated the whole organization, because of the "one person who went bad," who also happened to be the "greatest example of a man of god in our day and time," etc. ad nauseum. It's not that hard to get Oldies. And it's not as black and white as you like to make it. sigh......
I think that the vast majority of people in TWI were decent, good people. I do think that VPW and other members of leadership were corrupt and twisted everything that the other people did.
Perhaps VPW was bad from the beginning of TWI, maybe he became bad over time. I don't know, but what I do know is that he was not the only person in TWI, and that there were good things that happened in spite of him.
The best thing would not have been to have everyone shut down and drop out of TWI and that's it, but for the good people to take over TWI, or for them to start a new organization that takes the good things of TWI and leaves out the bad.
Coolwaters, you didn't mention anything about restructuring before; no I don't think that would have been bad.
BTW, I think not having the Way Corps would have been just fine. If that's part of the restructuring, I'd agree. I think the Way Corps did more harm than good. Other viewpoints may vary.
Restructuring was an option. But I still think that vpw himself should have backed out of things until he was fully repentant and proven as such.
He knew that was the best thing he could have done.
************
Mr P,
I dunno...we're seeing something like that now with the offshoots...and maybe they aren't as bad as twi was at the end...but they are repeating the same errors.
I dunno...we're seeing something like that now with the offshoots...and maybe they aren't as bad as twi was at the end...but they are repeating the same errors.
As far as I'm concerned, at least 90% of the doctrine and rules of TWI were B.S. My main point was more about how it had a lot of good people who met because of TWI and have done good things. I would have preferred to see the same people working together in another, entirely different organization. I guess ditch the covering but keep the people, minus VPW and others like him.
Husbands are the heads of their own households, but MOGs are the heads of the body. Therefore, the MOGs decisions overrule a husband's decisions. (this would apply if a husband is out there..ie abusing his wife etc)
I have never heard anyone from leadership or who was mature state that any of the actions in your opening post were OK or properly logical....and I find it hard to beleive that anyone who had a heart for God and his people would fall for such ideology if they were being proponded
Well, yeah. But it was hit-and-miss on what kind of "leadership" anyone had in an area. That responsibility lay at the feet of the BOD...which, in turn, put it squarely at the feet of vpw...imo.
Well, yeah. But it was hit-and-miss on what kind of "leadership" anyone had in an area.
I agree, and TWI was pretty nebulous on a lot of the procedures (perhaps they got revelation to avoid legal trouble. J/K) so different leaders heard the same thing and did it different ways.
I recall a branch coordinator that we had when I was growing up that was a good guy and had a "love the sinner hate the sin" attitude and tried to help people whenever he could. He was very involved with everyone's business, but from a standpoint of helping people out.
That guy was reassigned, and then someone moved in that would M&A people for the slightest thing and when he started getting involved with people, they got scared because they knew what was going on.
There was quite a bit of lattitude that leaders were given in TWI, and I think it shows in the differing experiences that we all have had. Of course, taking things such as time periods, location, etc. into consideration helps too.
"It doesn't feel right to watch people beat bruises into their children, but "the word" says that is the only way to drive the devil far from children...so shut up and let "the word" work."
I can't speak for your experience Dart, but when I went to leadership because my son's father was leaving bruises on him with the spoon I was told that sometimes that's what it takes to get a child's attention.
"It's OK to break man's law when needed (like running red lights to get to twig on time...or stealing from unbelievers to get needs met--like Paul did) because all things are lawful to believers."
I also recall a number of people in leadership positions praying to be invisible to radar and not get speeding tickets.
How about this one
"God won't even spit in your direction if you aren't giving the minimum, the tithe."
Then how the heck did people ever come to know God it the first place? I sure wasn't tithing BEFORE I got involved in TWI.
The entire concept of loving reproof was double speak straight from Orwells 1984. Since when is screaming in someone's face the loving thing to do?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I know what you mean Exie. Most of the time I try not to think about it. And I am very very thankful I got out while my kids were still very very young. And I am thankful for laws against child abuse, because it was the fear of losing the children to the state that stopped the abuse, not TWI.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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CoolWaters
I just got this used on me from another thread...
" Lots and lots of folks got blessed in TWI-1. Why should it have been stopped when so many folks benefitted?"
?????????????
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oldiesman
Ok no problem.
TWI should never have existed because of the evil acts, is that what you really believe?
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Zixar
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CoolWaters
OM,
The logic of jumping from stopping the problem to never existing is broken, imo.
But back to the original statement that so many got blessed, why stop it?
You see it in every day life, OM. Some "upstanding citizen" is found to be a rapist or a pedophile or a thief. So many people got so much good from this person, why put him/her in jail for his/her crimes? Why stop him/her?
?????????????
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CoolWaters
Zix,
Well...the logic would seem to agree...
--> 
?????????????
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, you're comparing one person who went bad, to TWI that was still doing godly things despite the evil works (with most of it very secretive)and reaching folks with the Word who needed and appreciated it. As Zixar pointed out, TWI was comprised of lots of folks who stood faithful and made a difference, despite VPW. I wouldn't have canned the whole thing because VPW took liberties he shouldn't have. I think that's the dead wrong way to look at it.
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CoolWaters
OM,
It could very well be that canning the whole thing because of many (not just vpw or lcm) bad apples is not logical to you. You report a far better twi experience than what I ever had.
However, vpw could have and should have (imo) done exactly what he threatened to do so many, many times...take it all down and build it again.
Why? Because he knew that the problem was systemic. He knew that the very structure of twi (corporate) allowed...no, required...that there be rank and file...and that such a system would breed the problems that happened in twi.
A restructuring is not bad, OM. The Catholic church is doing it now in response to what has happened with pedophilia.
But I gotta tell you...when my brother or sister says to me that if I would have just behaved better I wouldn't have been so badly abused...well...that's not logical...especially when they prefer to deny what happened.
See?
?????????????
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ex10
OM
Once again, you have brilliantly missed the point CW is making. It wasn't just "one person who went bad." Evil infilitrated the whole organization, because of the "one person who went bad," who also happened to be the "greatest example of a man of god in our day and time," etc. ad nauseum. It's not that hard to get Oldies. And it's not as black and white as you like to make it. sigh......
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CoolWaters
Here's another piece of broken logic (taken from another thread...reportedly at the bottom of a pic from twi called "The Trainer"):
"Training with love breeds loving obedience."
Um, for animals, OK. But for humans the goal is obedience?
?????????????
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Mister P-Mosh
I think that the vast majority of people in TWI were decent, good people. I do think that VPW and other members of leadership were corrupt and twisted everything that the other people did.
Perhaps VPW was bad from the beginning of TWI, maybe he became bad over time. I don't know, but what I do know is that he was not the only person in TWI, and that there were good things that happened in spite of him.
The best thing would not have been to have everyone shut down and drop out of TWI and that's it, but for the good people to take over TWI, or for them to start a new organization that takes the good things of TWI and leaves out the bad.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, you didn't mention anything about restructuring before; no I don't think that would have been bad.
BTW, I think not having the Way Corps would have been just fine. If that's part of the restructuring, I'd agree. I think the Way Corps did more harm than good. Other viewpoints may vary.
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excathedra
i think not having the guy who started the way corps would have been fine
(you know, the one who took liberties he shouldn't have)
?
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CoolWaters
Yeah, Ex10...yeah.
**********
OM,
Restructuring was an option. But I still think that vpw himself should have backed out of things until he was fully repentant and proven as such.
He knew that was the best thing he could have done.
************
Mr P,
I dunno...we're seeing something like that now with the offshoots...and maybe they aren't as bad as twi was at the end...but they are repeating the same errors.
?????????????
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Mister P-Mosh
As far as I'm concerned, at least 90% of the doctrine and rules of TWI were B.S. My main point was more about how it had a lot of good people who met because of TWI and have done good things. I would have preferred to see the same people working together in another, entirely different organization. I guess ditch the covering but keep the people, minus VPW and others like him.
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CoolWaters
OK, Mr P...gotcha now...whew! This switching back to mornings has done me in....can't even win a Scrabble game...
-->
?????????????
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Mister P-Mosh
I've had trouble communicating lately too. Work is taking it's toll on me.
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Dartanian3m
CW except perhaps for
Husbands are the heads of their own households, but MOGs are the heads of the body. Therefore, the MOGs decisions overrule a husband's decisions. (this would apply if a husband is out there..ie abusing his wife etc)
I have never heard anyone from leadership or who was mature state that any of the actions in your opening post were OK or properly logical....and I find it hard to beleive that anyone who had a heart for God and his people would fall for such ideology if they were being proponded
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CoolWaters
Mr P,
Glad I'm not the only one! LOL
*********
Dartanian,
Well, yeah. But it was hit-and-miss on what kind of "leadership" anyone had in an area. That responsibility lay at the feet of the BOD...which, in turn, put it squarely at the feet of vpw...imo.
?????????????
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Mister P-Mosh
I agree, and TWI was pretty nebulous on a lot of the procedures (perhaps they got revelation to avoid legal trouble. J/K) so different leaders heard the same thing and did it different ways.
I recall a branch coordinator that we had when I was growing up that was a good guy and had a "love the sinner hate the sin" attitude and tried to help people whenever he could. He was very involved with everyone's business, but from a standpoint of helping people out.
That guy was reassigned, and then someone moved in that would M&A people for the slightest thing and when he started getting involved with people, they got scared because they knew what was going on.
There was quite a bit of lattitude that leaders were given in TWI, and I think it shows in the differing experiences that we all have had. Of course, taking things such as time periods, location, etc. into consideration helps too.
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Abigail
"It doesn't feel right to watch people beat bruises into their children, but "the word" says that is the only way to drive the devil far from children...so shut up and let "the word" work."
I can't speak for your experience Dart, but when I went to leadership because my son's father was leaving bruises on him with the spoon I was told that sometimes that's what it takes to get a child's attention.
"It's OK to break man's law when needed (like running red lights to get to twig on time...or stealing from unbelievers to get needs met--like Paul did) because all things are lawful to believers."
I also recall a number of people in leadership positions praying to be invisible to radar and not get speeding tickets.
How about this one
"God won't even spit in your direction if you aren't giving the minimum, the tithe."
Then how the heck did people ever come to know God it the first place? I sure wasn't tithing BEFORE I got involved in TWI.
The entire concept of loving reproof was double speak straight from Orwells 1984. Since when is screaming in someone's face the loving thing to do?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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excathedra
you see, you're not responsible until you've been taught the truth..... THEN he won't spit
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
as far as the kids and bruises, i can't even go there. i might blow this place up.... like that carrie movie
?
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Abigail
Deleted by Abigail
[This message was edited by Abigail on February 05, 2004 at 7:25.]
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Abigail
I know what you mean Exie. Most of the time I try not to think about it. And I am very very thankful I got out while my kids were still very very young. And I am thankful for laws against child abuse, because it was the fear of losing the children to the state that stopped the abuse, not TWI.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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dmiller
CW hmmm --- maybe am missing something from the word
-->
When did Paul "steal from unbelievers" ?
-->
Guess I missed it. Can you give the "proverbial" chapter and verse on that one????
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