And it always drove me ape wild that the rationale for Job being completely restored was that he got more children. I thought that was never restored in that he never got his original children back. So what's the moral of the story?? Children are dispensable before God and easily replaced so that a 'believer' can consider themselves restored if granted another child? Something is wrong with that 'written picture.'
I guess one of the most freeing things I have found is to openly question those things that don't make sense to me, never made sense and actual say that without fear of lightening bolts or the ground swallowing me up.
I know the feeling, Mandii! Over on the "mastering pfal" thread, I posted that I am not looking for "the One True God, His revealed Word and His Son Jesus Christ".
It took a couple of hours of looking over my shoulder wondering if I was gonna get struck by lightening! But here I am, so I guess I didn't. LMAO!!!!
It is very freeing...once I got over that! LOL!
I love you posting your questions. Real people think about these things, ya know? And not many are willing to say, "I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't think I need to have all the answers."
I love watching you come into your own!
{{{{{{{{Mandii}}}}}}}
PS Did you see my post on the open forum about how I'm changing domains?
Hi, I just went and read it. I was going to upload the faery you made me the other day but was too lazy to go to my geocity site to get the link so will wait while you are 'net moving.'
I think you may have said something close to what I am about to say or someone did on the MoW thread, but the saying, "The One True God" and going after or following that promise/offer whatever, has gotten me into nothing but hotwater spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally. Nothing but trouble, one true god, worship the closest to god, doctrine is the most closest to the original/bible/first century church. I now hear that phrase akin to and with the same ears as I listen to an infomercial promising wealth or thiness or a younger looking face and with the same disdain that Ponce De Leon should have treated the myth of the waters of everlasting youth and Coronado should have treated the tales of the cities of Gold with.
But I guess every age has its mythical, all elusive yellow brick road promises.
Hold onto what feels right for you, toss out the rest. If something has been or is so damaging to you as to hurt you spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally...stop doing it/holding onto it!
And sometimes that leaves an empty feeling.
Look at your children. That emptiness will fill up quickly!
Look at your husband. He's wanting so much to be a part of what heals you.
Look at yourself. You are raising fine children. You are building a marriage in a time when marriages are not supposed to be built. You are touching the lives of young people who need a touch like yours. You work in an environment that would normally break a spirit so sweet and gentle as yours...but you're getting stronger, not being broken. You are stretching your arms out to many, many people with a hug most would not feel otherwise.
Be satisfied! You're doing well you good and faithful woman!
Okay, here's another one that has always bothered me and it's a little harder to admit to than the Job and Garden of Eden story.
Abraham and Issac. Abraham being told by God to go kill his son for a sacrifice. One it doesn't jive with TWI doctrine of that God never tests us and doesn't jive with James scripture of saying that God doesn't tempt...well the way we understood that in TWI.
And it doesn't jive with my understanding of that there is no shadow of changing with God, no darkness in him.
Asking someone to kill their son, their child is pretty dang dark to me and it caused me to like just try to ignore that whole section of the bible cause it just didn't fit.
I don't care if Abraham believed god would raise Issac back up from the dead. I don't care if God needed an 'arch type or proto type' to signify the coming of Christ and the sacrifice of giving his only beloved son. Abraham had more than one son, so that doesn't fit.
It is just a very weird story, killing someone in sacrifice to god at god's command. Or, in that story, was just about to until God intervened.
I know TWI or VP said that Abraham got it all backwards. No, he didn't. He did as the story goes. Jepath (sP) also sacrificed HIS daughter when she was the first thing that greeted him when he got home from the battle. By the way, WHO exactly did Jepath think would be the FIRST to greet him if NOT a human being? And she was sacrificed, she was not put in a temple for the rest of her life like VP said.
I'm sorry but if children are a blessing, and we are endued with parental inclinations and instincts that I can turn into a fire breathing dragon in defending my children, why would God have us recant that to sacrifice our children for him or to him?? Easy come, easy go? I don't think so...and I know that unless someone is deemed insane, it doesn't happen nowadays BUT then we do have bible stories being handed down as god breathed to tell us just how much we should love god that we would lay down our kids lives.
Sorry, but I am not giving my kids up for anything or anyone; at least not without one heck of a fight.
You're seeing that perhaps the bible is just what it says it is...a book.
If you read a book about tribal customs that, based upon religious beliefs, women open their lower lips and insert bones to stretch out a portion that will eventually become a "love loop" of sorts, are you gonna apply that to your life because you're going to work with that tribe as a doctor? I don't think so!
But that's exactly what people try to do with the bible...live it fundamentally.
Sigh. Is it any wonder that "christians" are so violent?
Okay, suppose we give TWI the benefit of the doubt here. (I can buy it that much of the writings of the OT, gospels, and Acts reflect what people did, not necessarily what God wanted them to do.) What God really meant, according to TWI, was for Abraham to dedicate his son to temple service. Then that makes God a pretty lousy communicator, if He can't get His Will through to Abraham in a way that Abe could understand it.
And yeah, I never understood Job losing his kids and then getting more as being a restoration. Kids aren't furniture.
Mandi The Abraham/Isaac story (vpw version) does NOT hold water. Just like his "Eloi, Eloi,lama sabachthani" teaching, it is faulty from the start, and only a "way brain" could hope to hold, and retain it.
For the past year, I have attended a Messianic Jewish "bible study" on Friday nights, and they dealt with this subject a couple of times. To them, the image of the father willing to give up his only son (and according to scripture, Isaac WAS Abraham's only son that counted), was a very real entity. Remember, God had two sons also, Adam 1, and Adam 2, but it was Adam 2 (Jesus --or as the Messianics say -- Yeshua) who counted.
They teach (and I believe them -- the Messianic viewpoint) that Abe and Zak WERE a "forerunner" of God and Christ, and these guys took the time to give scripture reference to what they said, and did not just put it forth as "doctrine".
The one thing that really impressed me, was their description of the ram that was offered instead of Isaac. Remember the ram was caught in a "thicket" there in Genesis 22. The ram was caught by his horns. Horns equal power, and thicket equals the world. And also remember, that Christ had a "crown of thorns" on his head.
So ---- looking at it from the "way-brain" dept.--- No, I would not agree either. Looking at it from the Messianic viewpoint -- I have to agree 100%. They (coming from an OT background -- and relating it to the NT) are in a much more accurate position to teach on this than vpw ever was. When they taught that thing about Christ, and the "crown of thorns", goosebumps appeared. It was so right on! A real "road to Emmaus" teaching.
I don't go there anymore tho, cause they are now teaching that Jesus was there with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the fiery furnace, and are also teaching that Jesus is the one who wrestled with Jacob. Pre-existance of Christ is NOT A VALID ENTRY in my book.
So I had to bid them farewell, but they did have one or two REALLY good teachings, and Abraham and Isaac was one of them.
For me, the Abe/Isaac situation is absurd. Of course, so is the idea of any human sacrifice...Job's family and Jesus included.
I am a mother and a grandmother. Basing a whole religion off of the need for a father to sacrifice his only "important" son...well, it's hogwash to the nth degree and I'll not buy it or eat it as chicken soup.
To go simply by the bible is to have a religion only for single men who have never been fathers. And the bible says so.
CW Fair enough. I am asking no one to believe anything, nor am I promoting human sacrifice. Just telling the story as it was told to me, from a non-way slant. What we do with it, is up to us individually.
I must have been in a really grumpy mood this morning!
dmiller, I didn't mean to come off so harsh. I'm not promoting or demoting anybody's belief system. And I didn't mean to be argumentative...but I sure did come off that way.
CW :)--> :)--> :)--> I think I have apologized here on GS, more than I have posted comments
I speak first, then see what I have written, and regret it too. :(--> No offense was taken (at this end) since I realize there are so many "beliefs" that are represented all upon one site.
But thanks I never intended to rile anyone up, especially that early in the morning! :D-->
dmiller, thank you for taking the time to explain what you thought about the passage. :-)
Cool, I knew where you were coming from also and was basically what I had thought about God telling someone to kill their child. The OT taken literally as a God breathed document, ie this is the will of God as opposed to these are the people in the OT story, of trying to find and please their God in the way they thought was right in the manner of their time...they thought God wanted all the 'ites' dead as they took over occupied land, Abraham thought God wanted him to kill his son, Jeptha thought he HAD to sacrifice his daughter, that he would be held to the vow he made...
it definitely paints a dark side to God as opposed to the NT version of neither shadow of turning, all good gifts come from the Father of lights, no tempting....no darkness at all.
I was thinking if Abraham had been told as a parable like the Prodjidal Son or Forgiving Father who was willing to sacrifice his son but then God rescued him by providing his own son as in God so loved us He gave that instead of Abraham literally walking his son to his death...well....
I know many believe that Ishmeal (sp) doesn't count, I believe I got the same impression in TWI because he was the son of the slave woman..yet that didn't stop Sarah from agreeing for Abraham to go to Hagar to raise children and it didn't stop Abraham and it didn't stop God from finding Hagar and her son in the desert when they were cast out and God made provision for them as well so they did matter.
As Christians believe that Issac was the one truly chosen and Ishamel rejected (although I don't see that) it still wasn't Abraham's ONLY begotten son, so the allegory or comparison doesn't truly fit. And some of Islam believe that it was Ishmeal who was to be sacrificed as the beloved son and Issac cast out.
This is really a thought provoking thread. Mandii...I loved your post!
I have thought since being out of twi, that maybe our expectations are too much of God.
Is it possible to believe in God, but also to believe that He set things in motion & then to coin a phrase: $h!t Happens!
The logic of the Bible does not flow. Is it possible that it is our understandings that get in the way? Even the writers of the Bible seem to indicate that.
The longer I live, the more I feel that God expects us to live our lives...without a lot of His personal intervention. I am capable. He made me that way.
Also for boken logic: If you don't tithe, God will allow misfortune to happen to you. Can anyone imagine, as a parent, allowing misfortune to happen to your child? It just doesn't fly.
Yeah...what about the father that offered to give his daughters to the crowds to *use* in order to honor his vow of hospitality ??... Think thats pretty reprehensible as well....course in that culture I guess they weren`t valued as much....
I can see old lot now....Sorry girls...but you know the rules....
Speaking of broken logic ---- I seem to remember from pfal, that the Adversary only copies, and can come up with nothing new, on his own.
Then we are taught that there were "seed boys" in the Old Testament, (born again, bona-fide, "spirit-in-them") folk from the wrong seed, LONG BEFORE GOD PUT SEED IN MAN (spiritually) so that "born again" could become a possibility.
Never made sense to me then, and it still makes no sense to me now. How could the advo have "spirit in them" before God the Father did, if the adversary only "copies"??
John 3:16 said that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and yet Jesus said that he only came to the lost sheep of Israel....which one was it?
(the last part of Mark about going into the world to preached was added by the second century and approved by the Council of Trent)
******
I'm with you, Rascal, on that one as well. Lot should have offered himself to the mob outside his door rather than sacrifice his daughters and then would have provided safety for his guests as well.
What if we viewed much of the Old Testament as a history book, with some wise saying thrown in. :)--> Not as god breathed, but as a history of the lenghts humanity will go to to worship their God, with the Hebrews as the star example. Could we then find some great examples of mistakes not to repeat? Some wisdom to guide us in the here and now, not just as individuals, but as a society?
Jewish people, especially those who are reformed and not orthodox, do not see their religion so much as being about worshipping god but about community and society. How to function together and take care of not just oneself but their community.
Is that not also, to a large degree, what Jesus tried to teach also? How to love one another?
If taken literally, the Bible doesn't work. But I think, if we look at it somewhat as a history book and also somewhat figuratively, it begins to work a little better. But we get so caught up in concrete thinking, that it must be perfect and fit like a hand in a glove, etc., that we (hehehehe) can't see the forest for the trees. The result is, as individuals and as a society, we just keep repeating the same mistakes.
You must worship as I worship and when you don't, war results. Is that God's will or is that simply what humanity does?
Did God literally tell Israel to kill the people of other nations or is that simply what Israel THOUGHT God wanted them to do? Were they overly supersticious? Did God really punish them by allowing them to become enslaved or is that just what they believed? Did God really free them when they humbled themselves or did they just finally reach a point where they beleived the could fight for freedom and win?
Just thoughts as I drink my morning coffee.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
[This message was edited by Abigail on February 16, 2004 at 6:32.]
These things...yes...these things are things to consider...and to weigh.
quote:Jewish people, especially those who are reformed and not orthodox, do not see their religion so much as being about worshipping god but about community and society. How to function together and take care of not just oneself but their community.
As has been evidenced over and over again, the "logic" and "believing" that was taught in twi did not lead to the ability to live in community with one another, much more the world. It lead to isolation, loneliness, fear and downright paranoid social behavior.
Going along in my life and getting older, I see that "evil" and "good" are defined primarily by how people treat one another. I've never heard of a person being defined as either "good" or "evil" unless that person had done something for/to someone else.
Even things are defined as "good" or "evil" based upon how they will/can be used by/for/with/upon people.
I agree with both of you to a certain extent. Even in TWI, I never assumed that a person's actions in the OT or NT were guaranteed to be God's will for my life. There were those who analyzed everything to death looking for "new insight." The worst was somehow assuming eastern culture was always SOOOO Godly. While I'm sure, for example that Abraham was a great man, it doesn't mean everything he did was perfect.
To me, that doesn't mean the OT is just a collection of wise sayings. Nor does it mean that the other end of the spectrum is true either: that EVERYTHING they did was supposed to be a lesson. I believe that whoever wrote the OT was inspired by God but was recording the actions of the people of that time.
Rascal's example is exactly what I'm talking about. That was used at a TWI class (AC or ACS) to show how highly they regarded hospitality. Nothing wrong with taking care of guests but where did God EVER say to do such a horrible thing? They went on and on about this topic and forgot about what happened to this poor girl. I don't know why the father did this. But to somehow imply that is a lesson from God, to me, is crazy. Do I believe this happened? Yes. Even by TWI's standards of "what does the Word say?", there is nothing here saying God said to do this.
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Mandii
And it always drove me ape wild that the rationale for Job being completely restored was that he got more children. I thought that was never restored in that he never got his original children back. So what's the moral of the story?? Children are dispensable before God and easily replaced so that a 'believer' can consider themselves restored if granted another child? Something is wrong with that 'written picture.'
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CoolWaters
I know the feeling, Mandii! Over on the "mastering pfal" thread, I posted that I am not looking for "the One True God, His revealed Word and His Son Jesus Christ".
It took a couple of hours of looking over my shoulder wondering if I was gonna get struck by lightening! But here I am, so I guess I didn't. LMAO!!!!
It is very freeing...once I got over that! LOL!
I love you posting your questions. Real people think about these things, ya know? And not many are willing to say, "I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't think I need to have all the answers."
I love watching you come into your own!
{{{{{{{{Mandii}}}}}}}
PS Did you see my post on the open forum about how I'm changing domains?
?????????????
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Mandii
Hi, I just went and read it. I was going to upload the faery you made me the other day but was too lazy to go to my geocity site to get the link so will wait while you are 'net moving.'
I think you may have said something close to what I am about to say or someone did on the MoW thread, but the saying, "The One True God" and going after or following that promise/offer whatever, has gotten me into nothing but hotwater spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally. Nothing but trouble, one true god, worship the closest to god, doctrine is the most closest to the original/bible/first century church. I now hear that phrase akin to and with the same ears as I listen to an infomercial promising wealth or thiness or a younger looking face and with the same disdain that Ponce De Leon should have treated the myth of the waters of everlasting youth and Coronado should have treated the tales of the cities of Gold with.
But I guess every age has its mythical, all elusive yellow brick road promises.
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CoolWaters
{{{{{Mandii}}}}}
Hold onto what feels right for you, toss out the rest. If something has been or is so damaging to you as to hurt you spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally...stop doing it/holding onto it!
And sometimes that leaves an empty feeling.
Look at your children. That emptiness will fill up quickly!
Look at your husband. He's wanting so much to be a part of what heals you.
Look at yourself. You are raising fine children. You are building a marriage in a time when marriages are not supposed to be built. You are touching the lives of young people who need a touch like yours. You work in an environment that would normally break a spirit so sweet and gentle as yours...but you're getting stronger, not being broken. You are stretching your arms out to many, many people with a hug most would not feel otherwise.
Be satisfied! You're doing well you good and faithful woman!
?????????????
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Mandii
{{{{Cool}}}} that is so sweet, thank you!
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Mandii
Okay, here's another one that has always bothered me and it's a little harder to admit to than the Job and Garden of Eden story.
Abraham and Issac. Abraham being told by God to go kill his son for a sacrifice. One it doesn't jive with TWI doctrine of that God never tests us and doesn't jive with James scripture of saying that God doesn't tempt...well the way we understood that in TWI.
And it doesn't jive with my understanding of that there is no shadow of changing with God, no darkness in him.
Asking someone to kill their son, their child is pretty dang dark to me and it caused me to like just try to ignore that whole section of the bible cause it just didn't fit.
I don't care if Abraham believed god would raise Issac back up from the dead. I don't care if God needed an 'arch type or proto type' to signify the coming of Christ and the sacrifice of giving his only beloved son. Abraham had more than one son, so that doesn't fit.
It is just a very weird story, killing someone in sacrifice to god at god's command. Or, in that story, was just about to until God intervened.
I know TWI or VP said that Abraham got it all backwards. No, he didn't. He did as the story goes. Jepath (sP) also sacrificed HIS daughter when she was the first thing that greeted him when he got home from the battle. By the way, WHO exactly did Jepath think would be the FIRST to greet him if NOT a human being? And she was sacrificed, she was not put in a temple for the rest of her life like VP said.
I'm sorry but if children are a blessing, and we are endued with parental inclinations and instincts that I can turn into a fire breathing dragon in defending my children, why would God have us recant that to sacrifice our children for him or to him?? Easy come, easy go? I don't think so...and I know that unless someone is deemed insane, it doesn't happen nowadays BUT then we do have bible stories being handed down as god breathed to tell us just how much we should love god that we would lay down our kids lives.
Sorry, but I am not giving my kids up for anything or anyone; at least not without one heck of a fight.
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CoolWaters
Mandii, Mandii, Mandii!
You're seeing that perhaps the bible is just what it says it is...a book.
If you read a book about tribal customs that, based upon religious beliefs, women open their lower lips and insert bones to stretch out a portion that will eventually become a "love loop" of sorts, are you gonna apply that to your life because you're going to work with that tribe as a doctor? I don't think so!
But that's exactly what people try to do with the bible...live it fundamentally.
Sigh. Is it any wonder that "christians" are so violent?
?????????????
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shazdancer
Okay, suppose we give TWI the benefit of the doubt here. (I can buy it that much of the writings of the OT, gospels, and Acts reflect what people did, not necessarily what God wanted them to do.) What God really meant, according to TWI, was for Abraham to dedicate his son to temple service. Then that makes God a pretty lousy communicator, if He can't get His Will through to Abraham in a way that Abe could understand it.
And yeah, I never understood Job losing his kids and then getting more as being a restoration. Kids aren't furniture.
Regards,
Shaz
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CoolWaters
Well, Shaz, it makes perfect sense if one applies broken logic...
;)-->
?????????????
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def59
One thing I have learned since being out of Twi is that I don't have to understand everything in the Bible for it to make sense for me.
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dmiller
Mandi The Abraham/Isaac story (vpw version) does NOT hold water. Just like his "Eloi, Eloi,lama sabachthani" teaching, it is faulty from the start, and only a "way brain" could hope to hold, and retain it.
For the past year, I have attended a Messianic Jewish "bible study" on Friday nights, and they dealt with this subject a couple of times. To them, the image of the father willing to give up his only son (and according to scripture, Isaac WAS Abraham's only son that counted), was a very real entity. Remember, God had two sons also, Adam 1, and Adam 2, but it was Adam 2 (Jesus --or as the Messianics say -- Yeshua) who counted.
They teach (and I believe them -- the Messianic viewpoint) that Abe and Zak WERE a "forerunner" of God and Christ, and these guys took the time to give scripture reference to what they said, and did not just put it forth as "doctrine".
The one thing that really impressed me, was their description of the ram that was offered instead of Isaac. Remember the ram was caught in a "thicket" there in Genesis 22. The ram was caught by his horns. Horns equal power, and thicket equals the world. And also remember, that Christ had a "crown of thorns" on his head.
So ---- looking at it from the "way-brain" dept.--- No, I would not agree either. Looking at it from the Messianic viewpoint -- I have to agree 100%. They (coming from an OT background -- and relating it to the NT) are in a much more accurate position to teach on this than vpw ever was. When they taught that thing about Christ, and the "crown of thorns", goosebumps appeared. It was so right on! A real "road to Emmaus" teaching.
I don't go there anymore tho, cause they are now teaching that Jesus was there with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the fiery furnace, and are also teaching that Jesus is the one who wrestled with Jacob. Pre-existance of Christ is NOT A VALID ENTRY in my book.
So I had to bid them farewell, but they did have one or two REALLY good teachings, and Abraham and Isaac was one of them.
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CoolWaters
dmiller,
For me, the Abe/Isaac situation is absurd. Of course, so is the idea of any human sacrifice...Job's family and Jesus included.
I am a mother and a grandmother. Basing a whole religion off of the need for a father to sacrifice his only "important" son...well, it's hogwash to the nth degree and I'll not buy it or eat it as chicken soup.
To go simply by the bible is to have a religion only for single men who have never been fathers. And the bible says so.
?????????????
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dmiller
CW Fair enough. I am asking no one to believe anything, nor am I promoting human sacrifice. Just telling the story as it was told to me, from a non-way slant. What we do with it, is up to us individually.
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CoolWaters
I must have been in a really grumpy mood this morning!
dmiller, I didn't mean to come off so harsh. I'm not promoting or demoting anybody's belief system. And I didn't mean to be argumentative...but I sure did come off that way.
I'm sorry.
?????????????
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dmiller
CW
:)--> 
:)--> 
:)--> I think I have apologized here on GS, more than I have posted comments 
I speak first, then see what I have written, and regret it too.
:(--> No offense was taken (at this end) since I realize there are so many "beliefs" that are represented all upon one site.
But thanks
I never intended to rile anyone up, especially that early in the morning! 
:D-->
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Mandii
dmiller, thank you for taking the time to explain what you thought about the passage. :-)
Cool, I knew where you were coming from also and was basically what I had thought about God telling someone to kill their child. The OT taken literally as a God breathed document, ie this is the will of God as opposed to these are the people in the OT story, of trying to find and please their God in the way they thought was right in the manner of their time...they thought God wanted all the 'ites' dead as they took over occupied land, Abraham thought God wanted him to kill his son, Jeptha thought he HAD to sacrifice his daughter, that he would be held to the vow he made...
it definitely paints a dark side to God as opposed to the NT version of neither shadow of turning, all good gifts come from the Father of lights, no tempting....no darkness at all.
I was thinking if Abraham had been told as a parable like the Prodjidal Son or Forgiving Father who was willing to sacrifice his son but then God rescued him by providing his own son as in God so loved us He gave that instead of Abraham literally walking his son to his death...well....
I know many believe that Ishmeal (sp) doesn't count, I believe I got the same impression in TWI because he was the son of the slave woman..yet that didn't stop Sarah from agreeing for Abraham to go to Hagar to raise children and it didn't stop Abraham and it didn't stop God from finding Hagar and her son in the desert when they were cast out and God made provision for them as well so they did matter.
As Christians believe that Issac was the one truly chosen and Ishamel rejected (although I don't see that) it still wasn't Abraham's ONLY begotten son, so the allegory or comparison doesn't truly fit. And some of Islam believe that it was Ishmeal who was to be sacrificed as the beloved son and Issac cast out.
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LuckyGirl
This is really a thought provoking thread. Mandii...I loved your post!
I have thought since being out of twi, that maybe our expectations are too much of God.
Is it possible to believe in God, but also to believe that He set things in motion & then to coin a phrase: $h!t Happens!
The logic of the Bible does not flow. Is it possible that it is our understandings that get in the way? Even the writers of the Bible seem to indicate that.
The longer I live, the more I feel that God expects us to live our lives...without a lot of His personal intervention. I am capable. He made me that way.
Also for boken logic: If you don't tithe, God will allow misfortune to happen to you. Can anyone imagine, as a parent, allowing misfortune to happen to your child? It just doesn't fly.
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rascal
Yeah...what about the father that offered to give his daughters to the crowds to *use* in order to honor his vow of hospitality ??... Think thats pretty reprehensible as well....course in that culture I guess they weren`t valued as much....
I can see old lot now....Sorry girls...but you know the rules....
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dmiller
Rascal exactly !!
--> 
--> 
-->
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dmiller
Speaking of broken logic ---- I seem to remember from pfal, that the Adversary only copies, and can come up with nothing new, on his own.
Then we are taught that there were "seed boys" in the Old Testament, (born again, bona-fide, "spirit-in-them") folk from the wrong seed, LONG BEFORE GOD PUT SEED IN MAN (spiritually) so that "born again" could become a possibility.
Never made sense to me then, and it still makes no sense to me now.
How could the advo have "spirit in them" before God the Father did, if the adversary only "copies"??
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Mandii
that is a darn good question, dmiller.
John 3:16 said that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and yet Jesus said that he only came to the lost sheep of Israel....which one was it?
(the last part of Mark about going into the world to preached was added by the second century and approved by the Council of Trent)
******
I'm with you, Rascal, on that one as well. Lot should have offered himself to the mob outside his door rather than sacrifice his daughters and then would have provided safety for his guests as well.
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Abigail
What if we viewed much of the Old Testament as a history book, with some wise saying thrown in.
:)--> Not as god breathed, but as a history of the lenghts humanity will go to to worship their God, with the Hebrews as the star example. Could we then find some great examples of mistakes not to repeat? Some wisdom to guide us in the here and now, not just as individuals, but as a society?
Jewish people, especially those who are reformed and not orthodox, do not see their religion so much as being about worshipping god but about community and society. How to function together and take care of not just oneself but their community.
Is that not also, to a large degree, what Jesus tried to teach also? How to love one another?
If taken literally, the Bible doesn't work. But I think, if we look at it somewhat as a history book and also somewhat figuratively, it begins to work a little better. But we get so caught up in concrete thinking, that it must be perfect and fit like a hand in a glove, etc., that we (hehehehe) can't see the forest for the trees. The result is, as individuals and as a society, we just keep repeating the same mistakes.
You must worship as I worship and when you don't, war results. Is that God's will or is that simply what humanity does?
Did God literally tell Israel to kill the people of other nations or is that simply what Israel THOUGHT God wanted them to do? Were they overly supersticious? Did God really punish them by allowing them to become enslaved or is that just what they believed? Did God really free them when they humbled themselves or did they just finally reach a point where they beleived the could fight for freedom and win?
Just thoughts as I drink my morning coffee.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
[This message was edited by Abigail on February 16, 2004 at 6:32.]
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CoolWaters
These things...yes...these things are things to consider...and to weigh.
As has been evidenced over and over again, the "logic" and "believing" that was taught in twi did not lead to the ability to live in community with one another, much more the world. It lead to isolation, loneliness, fear and downright paranoid social behavior.
Going along in my life and getting older, I see that "evil" and "good" are defined primarily by how people treat one another. I've never heard of a person being defined as either "good" or "evil" unless that person had done something for/to someone else.
Even things are defined as "good" or "evil" based upon how they will/can be used by/for/with/upon people.
So, thinking about these things, I see a pattern.
?????????????
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JustThinking
Mandii & CW,
I agree with both of you to a certain extent. Even in TWI, I never assumed that a person's actions in the OT or NT were guaranteed to be God's will for my life. There were those who analyzed everything to death looking for "new insight." The worst was somehow assuming eastern culture was always SOOOO Godly. While I'm sure, for example that Abraham was a great man, it doesn't mean everything he did was perfect.
To me, that doesn't mean the OT is just a collection of wise sayings. Nor does it mean that the other end of the spectrum is true either: that EVERYTHING they did was supposed to be a lesson. I believe that whoever wrote the OT was inspired by God but was recording the actions of the people of that time.
Rascal's example is exactly what I'm talking about. That was used at a TWI class (AC or ACS) to show how highly they regarded hospitality. Nothing wrong with taking care of guests but where did God EVER say to do such a horrible thing? They went on and on about this topic and forgot about what happened to this poor girl. I don't know why the father did this. But to somehow imply that is a lesson from God, to me, is crazy. Do I believe this happened? Yes. Even by TWI's standards of "what does the Word say?", there is nothing here saying God said to do this.
JT
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