I doubt if he even read Karl Barth let alone knew him. There were some people he said he hung out with in the early days - Oral Roberst, Starr Daily and some others.
They aren't who I'd call heavies. But I also heard (and don't know where I heard it) that they ostracized him. Wouldn't surprize me if it happened and if he spun it his way.
VP could be charming. Hell, he charmed us out of our money, time, and pants, didn't he?
Barth and VP were kinda similar - they both held a sort of magical belief in the letter of the "Word" as holding secrets and answers to 'life's persistent questions.'
However, Barth's brilliant, scholarly, and erudite Church Dogmatics were in service of the church. Wierwille's borrowed and tortured bibical machinations were largely in service of his wiener. They were Wiener Dogmatics.
NB: Barth was barred from preaching in churches of his own denomination for having an improper relationship with his secretary. So Barth preached in prisons.
Would that Wierwille had found such a Christian solution.
Yes, JT, you're right.. it was MORE than a compliment. Why would VPW settle for just a compliment from a famous theologian? After all, he was the MOGFODAT.
Anyone got the exact quote?
VP passed it along to us in PFAL as an epiphany with large theological implications for KB (or whoever) to the best of my recollection.
I seem to recall Wierwille reporting that the theologian said "If what you say is true, we'd have to sit here for at least two weeks to work over this And I loved that man for that."
This is with reference to tongues et al being manifestations as opposed to 'gifts.' right?
Barth later wrote that 'the church that does not yearn for the gifts of the spirit is a lazy church'* Given this quote, I guess Barth (or whoever) was not fully or lastingly convinced re: gifts vs. manifestations.
* Is there any other kind? Disciples sleep while Jesus agonizes in the garden. (mixing metaphors) They dramatically jump off the lifeguard chair in such a way that their heads hide in the sand when drowners cry for help.
This sounds like one of those things that didn't make the cut into the book, so we'dhave to depend on one of the few who have the PFAL film or video to check for us.
As I recall, he didn't mention Barth by name, but it was implied.
Actually it was Harvey Barth a distant cousin but he assured veepee (over several glasses of drambuie) that the snow on the gas pumps...whoops, that was another story wasn't it.
I once skimmed through Mrs. VP's book on her hubby. The encounters listed in there didn't exactly show a lifelong bond between VP and the other folks. More like a one-time meeting.
We do have some folks who were around HQ a long time. Could they provide insight into whether or not people like Stiles actually came to there?
Or even Billy Graham. I was told more than once that VPW and Graham knew each other in their early years but "Billy Graham sold out because he wanted a big ministry." Really, that was said at twig more than once.
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GrouchoMarxJr
When wierwille claimed to be pals with all these spiritual heavies, maybe he was referring to the people he stole from.
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My3Cents
I doubt if he even read Karl Barth let alone knew him. There were some people he said he hung out with in the early days - Oral Roberst, Starr Daily and some others.
They aren't who I'd call heavies. But I also heard (and don't know where I heard it) that they ostracized him. Wouldn't surprize me if it happened and if he spun it his way.
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WordWolf
People have posted here about how vpw's attendance at certain
weekend-long events somehow morphed into great friendships
where vpw learned so much from these people. It's probably
a lot like his claim of having taken all the Moody
correspondence course extant when he was studying, which Moody
has no record of.
He also claimed, at ROA '77 AND '79, to have reproved
Norman Vincent Peale face-to-face, where Peale claimed to
discard the Bible on a subject and prefer his 5 senses.
Anyone know if he actually MET Peale?
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Trefor Heywood
If I remember rightly he claimed that Karl Barth was a "friend and consultant" in the literature.
That's quite a claim but can it be proved or disproved?
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Juan Cruz
VPW probably talked to KB once
and Barth probably complimented him
just as he describes in PFAL.
VP could be charming. Hell, he charmed us out of our money, time, and pants, didn't he?
Barth and VP were kinda similar - they both held a sort of magical belief in the letter of the "Word" as holding secrets and answers to 'life's persistent questions.'
However, Barth's brilliant, scholarly, and erudite Church Dogmatics were in service of the church. Wierwille's borrowed and tortured bibical machinations were largely in service of his wiener. They were Wiener Dogmatics.
NB: Barth was barred from preaching in churches of his own denomination for having an improper relationship with his secretary. So Barth preached in prisons.
Would that Wierwille had found such a Christian solution.
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JustThinking
"Wiener Dogmatics!" Oooooh that's bad. Love it!
Was it Barth he mentioned in PFAL as "The greatest theologian of all Europe?" Hope I got that quote right.
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JustThinking
Juan,
Wasn't it more than a compliment? Something like "if you're right, this could change theology?" Or some other dramatic statement?
JT
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Juan Cruz
Yes, JT, you're right.. it was MORE than a compliment. Why would VPW settle for just a compliment from a famous theologian? After all, he was the MOGFODAT.
Anyone got the exact quote?
VP passed it along to us in PFAL as an epiphany with large theological implications for KB (or whoever) to the best of my recollection.
I seem to recall Wierwille reporting that the theologian said "If what you say is true, we'd have to sit here for at least two weeks to work over this And I loved that man for that."
This is with reference to tongues et al being manifestations as opposed to 'gifts.' right?
Barth later wrote that 'the church that does not yearn for the gifts of the spirit is a lazy church'* Given this quote, I guess Barth (or whoever) was not fully or lastingly convinced re: gifts vs. manifestations.
* Is there any other kind? Disciples sleep while Jesus agonizes in the garden. (mixing metaphors) They dramatically jump off the lifeguard chair in such a way that their heads hide in the sand when drowners cry for help.
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Oakspear
This sounds like one of those things that didn't make the cut into the book, so we'dhave to depend on one of the few who have the PFAL film or video to check for us.
As I recall, he didn't mention Barth by name, but it was implied.
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Trefor Heywood
No Barth wasn't mentioned by name in the class but I and others automatically assumed that he was the one whom VPW was referring to.
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Juan Cruz
Since Wierwille no tiene madre.
... we might now entertain the notion that VP met a guy who once saw Barth across a room.
And dreamed the rest.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Actually it was Harvey Barth a distant cousin but he assured veepee (over several glasses of drambuie) that the snow on the gas pumps...whoops, that was another story wasn't it.
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Trefor Heywood
Perhaps Harvey was like another Harvey - only visible to one person!
:D-->
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def59
sounds like vp was barthing up the wrong (CF+S) tree!
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JustThinking
Maybe TWI likes to cycle through people so there's no living history of what really happens?
JT
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dmiller
JT -- Yup. Probably so. If there is no "smoke", who can say there is a fire happening?
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JustThinking
I once skimmed through Mrs. VP's book on her hubby. The encounters listed in there didn't exactly show a lifelong bond between VP and the other folks. More like a one-time meeting.
We do have some folks who were around HQ a long time. Could they provide insight into whether or not people like Stiles actually came to there?
Or even Billy Graham. I was told more than once that VPW and Graham knew each other in their early years but "Billy Graham sold out because he wanted a big ministry." Really, that was said at twig more than once.
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Juan Cruz
!!! We all know what it is for which VP sold HIS soul. (It comes in Levi's.)
And he had the audacity to criticize others. What a small, small man, with a teenie-weenie heart.
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