I guess it's ok if you want to think of VPW/LCM as monsters, coupled with insulting the participants, thinking of them as nothing more than glassy-eyed, zombie-like victims who can't make a decision on their own or accept any responsibility for their own actions.
quote: The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock: his spouse, his offspring, other family members, friends, and colleagues. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals.
The less accomplished he is in reality - the more stringent his mastery and the more pervasive the brainwashing.
This says it all. (sigh) --> -->
And this was just the FIRST part of the article. The rest of the article completes the statement.
I was introduced to this kind of disorder befor I got into TWI. My father had his own little cult following and held on tight till the day he lost his marbles. (Dementia) His wife and kids were his cult.
I cycled right in TWI without missing a beat. After much therapy I can easily recognize the red flags of narcissism. VPW/LCM were the "kings" of the heep. There was and is, much more of this disorder prevalent at TWI. And I must say some ex-TWI folks have this disorder too. In order to be a TOP NOTCH cult leader you have to be narcissistic first. This has nothing to do with those of us who had a heart of gold and really wanted to serve.
My ex husband, My tc, my branch/limb leader, most of the corps in the area....I think I see a pattern here.
No wonder I've clung to my platonic relationship with CJ--for 5 years now (we've known each other for 18) just too afraid I'll be back in the hands of A Narcissist--
I think it's a legitimate concern of people who have been affected by narcissists: "What is it in me that I attract (or am attracted to) these people?"
Some people were raised in such a way that they were used to narcissistic behavior from others (as imbus said). Some were raised to deny their feelings. (And didn't TWI try to instill that in us also?) Some are narcissistic themselves, and want to claim their place in the sun by being associated with greatness.
I have also spoken to many people who took up with narcissists who are clearly giving, tender-hearted people. It is said that narcissists search out such people, who will put up with and excuse their abuses longer than most. The narcissist needs a giver to take from. But when the giver gets too close, the narcissist will reject them with a coldness that is startling.
How do we prevent hooking up with these guys/gals in the future? Learn to recognize the red flags. And have the guts to tell anyone who is trampling on your privacy, feelings, or inner self to back off.
No, I don't think of TWI followers as "zombies." I think most of us just wanted to love God and each other, and wanted answers to life. We were convinced that we had found the answers in Wierwille's message. We loved him for that. He abused many of us for that. It was hard to withdraw, because we loved.
The one recurring theme with all these anti cult articles is: you must have been a victim. You could never have been anything else.
Dictionary "narcissus" -- a beautiful youth in Greek mythology who pines away for love of his own reflection and then turned into a narcissus flower...
VP kept saying to us: it's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word...
I have to say in all honesty that if he wanted us to focus on anything, it was God's Word, not himself.
You may call that Bible Worship if you wish; I think that'd be more accurate than narcissism.
You know, oldiesman, it IS possible to have more than one facet to your personality. VPW was a complex man. Can you possibly allow for the fact that as many times as he said "The Word the Word the Word," that he could still have something of a narcissistic streak in him that was so deep that those who knew him best thought the Passing of the Patriarch was true?
Whether one person is more tolerant of a narcissist or not does not change the behavior. Also, your use of the word "victim" here could be taken two ways, IMO.
The first is the traditional meaning that you were affected by the narcissist and doesn't imply anything about your strength or desire to resist.
The second might imply that you are absolving yourself of any responsbility. (Pity me, I'm just a victim) How do you mean someone is a "victim?"
Even a strong-willed person who takes complete responsbility for themselves could be hurt by this type of person for many reasons:
1. They could affect a family member or loved one.
2. I could be deceived by a different public persona.
3. Thoughts, ideas, etc. could be learned over time but not easily recognized or discarded after the fact.
Count yourself ahead, in that Wierwille didn't need any more from you than what you supplied.
I was never approached by Wierwille for sexual favors. It just might be that I wasn't the type that he was attracted to, or that my "From Birth to the Corps" paper wasn't very traumatic, but having a tattoed, hard-drinking New Yawkuh for a spouse probably didn't hurt, either. (Mike's depiction of Wierwille as having "an abundance of brawn" notwithstanding!)
Wierwille said "it's the Word, peepul," but he loved the attention, the protocol, the MOG status. One time at Rome City, he said wistfully, "I wish I could just come and go here, without fanfare." Yet he was the first to insist on the whole "mint on the pillow" conduct. When I gently brought that up with him, one on one, respectfully, he blew me off.
I do not go around bemoaning some kind of "victim" status, neither because of Wierwille or anyone else. Once I am aware of the situation, the con, I have the freedom to do something about it. In the case of TWI, I left. I think the best revenge is a life well-lived. I did not become a greasespot by midnight.
OH YES! It's The Word, The Word, The Word! Peepul, don't you see it?
Yeah, the "Word" of Wierwille. It was his philosophy he was pitching, so the spotlight was still on him (as it should rightly have been, no? After all he was the MOGFODAT, wasn't he?)
For all his protestations otherwise, it's quite evident that the Vickster was the prime mover at WayWorld and anyone questioning the veracity of any of his tenets of faith was quickly shown the door.
The "Word" he was so adamant about promoting was his own. The praise he lavished on it (and expected others to do the same) was self-serving, self-congratulatory, self-promotion.
Yes, he could feign humility. Any huckster - even mediocre ones - can do that. But if you look past the facade, he was pitching himself, first, last, and always...
quote:Yeah, the "Word" of Wierwille. It was his philosophy he was pitching, so the spotlight was still on him (as it should rightly have been, no? After all he was the MOGFODAT, wasn't he?)
quote:The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult.
This seems to be the propaganda that the purveyors of the victim mentality mindset (not accusing you George, just making a general comment) must convince folks of, before folks believe they were conned.
It's got to be about the evil narcissistic monster who seduces. Can't be about you having a hunger for truth; and God's people working to help you find it. You finding it and thankful for the things you learned. Nah.
Dr. Wierwille wasn't at the center of TWI in my TWI world...my involvement and commitment wasn't to him... He was the teacher, yes, but he wasn't the sustenance that kept me going. I suppose it's possible some folks can make that kind of commitment to a man, and VP in particular; but that's up to the mind set of those making the decision. I think it's insulting to suggest all of us fell in that same boat.
"I WISH I WHERE THE MAN I KNOW TO BE" speaks volumes to me. I think on a fraudian sub-conscience level V.P was aware of the contol he had on people and the self proclaimed MOGOAT effect.
I know when I was in a leadership position I believed I represented the absent Christ when I walked the word. That God talked to me 24-7 and that I could do no wrong. That when things did not go my way(as i Saw it)it was a personal attact from the advisary.
I grew into a grandious...my stuff don't stink,"WOG". Arragance was over flowing and I had forgotten more Bible then most people will ever know. Sound familure?
This is A closed system type behavior modifacation that prevailed in TWI. On one side of the coin you were brow beat. On the otherside you could join the "Called of God" to His "HOUSEHOLD". God's Crack troops.I took tke Bait.
Yes, VePe was a complicated man and his complication has had residgual affects on the masses.
I do have to ask one question. What happened in his life that made him NOT the man he knew to be?
I wish I were the man I know to be = Gee, people, I'm trying to be this wonderful imaginary person so respect me for my self-proclaimed humility and desire to be Gawdly.
How pompous! I have yet to meet a person who goes around touting their (a) wonderful qualities or (b) striving for the same where either is true.
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oldiesman
Hi Shaz,
I guess it's ok if you want to think of VPW/LCM as monsters, coupled with insulting the participants, thinking of them as nothing more than glassy-eyed, zombie-like victims who can't make a decision on their own or accept any responsibility for their own actions.
Otherwise, it's great!
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JustThinking
Shaz,
No way! (oops, bad pun) You did so write this person. ;-)
OMG, that fits one or two people I know to a tee!
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vickles
wow shaz, it fits both vpw and martindale to the T!!!!
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dmiller
I went to the site, and ended up in their bookstore.
-->
Is there a special thing to click on to get the article mentoned??
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Zshot
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dmiller
OK -- I think I got it.
:)-->
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dmiller
This says it all. (sigh)
--> 
-->
And this was just the FIRST part of the article. The rest of the article completes the statement.
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imbus
I was introduced to this kind of disorder befor I got into TWI. My father had his own little cult following and held on tight till the day he lost his marbles. (Dementia) His wife and kids were his cult.
I cycled right in TWI without missing a beat. After much therapy I can easily recognize the red flags of narcissism. VPW/LCM were the "kings" of the heep. There was and is, much more of this disorder prevalent at TWI. And I must say some ex-TWI folks have this disorder too. In order to be a TOP NOTCH cult leader you have to be narcissistic first. This has nothing to do with those of us who had a heart of gold and really wanted to serve.
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templelady
My ex husband, My tc, my branch/limb leader, most of the corps in the area....I think I see a pattern here.
No wonder I've clung to my platonic relationship with CJ--for 5 years now (we've known each other for 18) just too afraid I'll be back in the hands of A Narcissist--
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shazdancer
Dear templelady,
I think it's a legitimate concern of people who have been affected by narcissists: "What is it in me that I attract (or am attracted to) these people?"
Some people were raised in such a way that they were used to narcissistic behavior from others (as imbus said). Some were raised to deny their feelings. (And didn't TWI try to instill that in us also?) Some are narcissistic themselves, and want to claim their place in the sun by being associated with greatness.
I have also spoken to many people who took up with narcissists who are clearly giving, tender-hearted people. It is said that narcissists search out such people, who will put up with and excuse their abuses longer than most. The narcissist needs a giver to take from. But when the giver gets too close, the narcissist will reject them with a coldness that is startling.
How do we prevent hooking up with these guys/gals in the future? Learn to recognize the red flags. And have the guts to tell anyone who is trampling on your privacy, feelings, or inner self to back off.
Regards,
Shaz
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shazdancer
Dear Oldies,
No, I don't think of TWI followers as "zombies." I think most of us just wanted to love God and each other, and wanted answers to life. We were convinced that we had found the answers in Wierwille's message. We loved him for that. He abused many of us for that. It was hard to withdraw, because we loved.
Regards,
Shaz
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excathedra
thank you, shaz
this article also got me thinking about Dan Shaw again, the psychoanalyst who used to be in a cult
link-
http://hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm#...se%20in%20Cults
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oldiesman
The one recurring theme with all these anti cult articles is: you must have been a victim. You could never have been anything else.
Dictionary "narcissus" -- a beautiful youth in Greek mythology who pines away for love of his own reflection and then turned into a narcissus flower...
VP kept saying to us: it's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word...
I have to say in all honesty that if he wanted us to focus on anything, it was God's Word, not himself.
You may call that Bible Worship if you wish; I think that'd be more accurate than narcissism.
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excathedra
i think some people knew a different vp than others
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oldiesman
I can't argue with that...
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Raf
You know, oldiesman, it IS possible to have more than one facet to your personality. VPW was a complex man. Can you possibly allow for the fact that as many times as he said "The Word the Word the Word," that he could still have something of a narcissistic streak in him that was so deep that those who knew him best thought the Passing of the Patriarch was true?
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oldiesman
Raf, I don't quite understand your question, but I think it's a fair conclusion that he manifested both good and evil, as the testimonies relate...
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JustThinking
OM,
Whether one person is more tolerant of a narcissist or not does not change the behavior. Also, your use of the word "victim" here could be taken two ways, IMO.
The first is the traditional meaning that you were affected by the narcissist and doesn't imply anything about your strength or desire to resist.
The second might imply that you are absolving yourself of any responsbility. (Pity me, I'm just a victim) How do you mean someone is a "victim?"
Even a strong-willed person who takes complete responsbility for themselves could be hurt by this type of person for many reasons:
1. They could affect a family member or loved one.
2. I could be deceived by a different public persona.
3. Thoughts, ideas, etc. could be learned over time but not easily recognized or discarded after the fact.
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Raf
I think narcissism was quite accurate, and not negated by his frequent allusions to The Word.
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shazdancer
Dear Oldies,
Count yourself ahead, in that Wierwille didn't need any more from you than what you supplied.
I was never approached by Wierwille for sexual favors. It just might be that I wasn't the type that he was attracted to, or that my "From Birth to the Corps" paper wasn't very traumatic, but having a tattoed, hard-drinking New Yawkuh for a spouse probably didn't hurt, either. (Mike's depiction of Wierwille as having "an abundance of brawn" notwithstanding!)
Wierwille said "it's the Word, peepul," but he loved the attention, the protocol, the MOG status. One time at Rome City, he said wistfully, "I wish I could just come and go here, without fanfare." Yet he was the first to insist on the whole "mint on the pillow" conduct. When I gently brought that up with him, one on one, respectfully, he blew me off.
I do not go around bemoaning some kind of "victim" status, neither because of Wierwille or anyone else. Once I am aware of the situation, the con, I have the freedom to do something about it. In the case of TWI, I left. I think the best revenge is a life well-lived. I did not become a greasespot by midnight.
Regards,
Shaz
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George Aar
OH YES! It's The Word, The Word, The Word! Peepul, don't you see it?
Yeah, the "Word" of Wierwille. It was his philosophy he was pitching, so the spotlight was still on him (as it should rightly have been, no? After all he was the MOGFODAT, wasn't he?)
For all his protestations otherwise, it's quite evident that the Vickster was the prime mover at WayWorld and anyone questioning the veracity of any of his tenets of faith was quickly shown the door.
The "Word" he was so adamant about promoting was his own. The praise he lavished on it (and expected others to do the same) was self-serving, self-congratulatory, self-promotion.
Yes, he could feign humility. Any huckster - even mediocre ones - can do that. But if you look past the facade, he was pitching himself, first, last, and always...
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oldiesman
This seems to be the propaganda that the purveyors of the victim mentality mindset (not accusing you George, just making a general comment) must convince folks of, before folks believe they were conned.
It's got to be about the evil narcissistic monster who seduces. Can't be about you having a hunger for truth; and God's people working to help you find it. You finding it and thankful for the things you learned. Nah.
Dr. Wierwille wasn't at the center of TWI in my TWI world...my involvement and commitment wasn't to him... He was the teacher, yes, but he wasn't the sustenance that kept me going. I suppose it's possible some folks can make that kind of commitment to a man, and VP in particular; but that's up to the mind set of those making the decision. I think it's insulting to suggest all of us fell in that same boat.
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imbus
"I WISH I WHERE THE MAN I KNOW TO BE" speaks volumes to me. I think on a fraudian sub-conscience level V.P was aware of the contol he had on people and the self proclaimed MOGOAT effect.
I know when I was in a leadership position I believed I represented the absent Christ when I walked the word. That God talked to me 24-7 and that I could do no wrong. That when things did not go my way(as i Saw it)it was a personal attact from the advisary.
I grew into a grandious...my stuff don't stink,"WOG". Arragance was over flowing and I had forgotten more Bible then most people will ever know. Sound familure?
This is A closed system type behavior modifacation that prevailed in TWI. On one side of the coin you were brow beat. On the otherside you could join the "Called of God" to His "HOUSEHOLD". God's Crack troops.I took tke Bait.
Yes, VePe was a complicated man and his complication has had residgual affects on the masses.
I do have to ask one question. What happened in his life that made him NOT the man he knew to be?
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JustThinking
I wish I were the man I know to be = Gee, people, I'm trying to be this wonderful imaginary person so respect me for my self-proclaimed humility and desire to be Gawdly.
How pompous! I have yet to meet a person who goes around touting their (a) wonderful qualities or (b) striving for the same where either is true.
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