Yes. Since the Word took the place of the absent Christ, we nitpicked it to death. We became bibliophiles (a term used in theological circles) - those who worship the Bible. We examined the tree endlessly (word studies, numerical significance, greek, hebrew, etc.) and thus were not able to see the forest.
We neglected the truths that, as Christ said "the truth is within you" or as others wrote, you have no need man teach you. We neglected the holy spirit, or comfortor which Christ sent into the world after his resurrection to teach us, guide us and comfort us.
The Bible is a guide. God and Jesus Christ are so much bigger than that, they cannot be contained in the Book. We never realized that. We became bound to the letter - no different than the pharisees or sadducees. The result, as we can clearly see in TWI II and III is bondage.
Many people can spout off scripture and verse, it does not make them spirtual nor give them a relationship with God.
I understand ex. We all have our own timetables. I never quite gave it up, but I certainly don't study for hours on end like I used to. Yet, its funny, God still seems to be able to teach me and show me truths.
As cultures, ages, centuries and times change, I believe the Bible is flexible to be applicable to each day and time. Its like McDonalds, when we were kids, it was a little drive in with two arches. As our generation grew, it grew and adapted, first you could be seated inside and eat, then the arches disappeared, then playgrounds for kids, etc.
In the same way, the church and Christianity cannot remain static and inflexible, as a little drive-in, so to speak. I think many Christians have realized God is so much bigger - as the Gospel writer said, the book cannot contain all that Jesus did. In the same respect, the Bible cannot contain all that God or his Son is. It can give us a hint, or a glimpse. I sense a movement, that God is showing this to people. Its time to move beyond the black and white, Calvinistic, fundamentalism. That man-made religous dogmatism will not work in the coming centuries.
We need to get to the Christ of love and the Spirit of Truth and following it as it inspires the inner man and not the God of war and law of the old testament - of which Christ came to deliver us from.
the way is responsible for making the bible a book of integrity for me, I will forever look at my life by what the bible speaks as a standard to me.
It is indeed the personal ideas and thoughts about what the bible may say and what some man or women thinks it means or what God told only them it means I am bolting away from .
which the way taught me to do as well, although I do not believe that was their intent heh .
I believe the Holy spirit does speak to each of of personaly and I mean to say a key word in that statement is each PERSON is able to listen to God as an individual and procede as they deem needed.
I am not keen on these words of prophecy to change peoples life myself.
no trust in why would my God tell you and not me and what is up IF i cant hear him and He needs another person to what bully me into hearing the truth for my life?
can not think that way. do not plan too either .
If I thought I should do something and I read for myself the bible clearly states I should not, I would not do it.
I get fuzzy on what I should do sometimes and that is where I have learned to live in faith for the Lord to guide me in my ignorance for living.
I do not debate the bible anymore, if I truly believe I know what the bible says on a matter and someone points blanks asks me or makes a statement to the contary (and they are friends and we are engaging in conversation) I will defend what I know as truth and declare it as truth from the bible.
I will not change my mind even if someone disagrees. But I can agree to disagree.
I do not teach the bible tho, I try to live it which is difficult enough for me.
I guess I’m one of those dreaded ‘ threw the baby out with the bath water’ types.
I was the way’s version of chapter and verse for many years, each year more miserable than the last.
After we left (5 years now) we did some exway ministry stuff, but had no great experience there, the ‘twig’ seemed very controlling. Moved onto churches, cuz I thought we should, people were nice, lots of activities for kids, but could never really settle down in one.
During our church time I began to explore other belief systems out of curiosity, and goddess spirituality/Wiccan beliefs were electrifying to me.
I studied these beliefs while still attending a church for quite a while. Tried several times to get excited about Christian/Bible beliefs but that was gone–like it evaporated, disappeared..
I finally admitted to myself that I had changed, and wanted to continue on this path, and so I have.
Chapter and verse brought much turmoil and stress to my life. I don’t miss it, gave enough of my life to it. All my happy memories of good times were pretty much spoiled by our last years IN, and by M&A.
I’m not one who gives the Way big credit for saving me or teaching me about God, or about life. It did teach me about being wary of those who have the absolute truth, the true religion.
I'm ordained to gospel ministry by God and the Presbyterian Church (USA).
I've served three fine churches,
preaching biblically every Sunday after,
many hours of preparation.
I teach an hour-long Bible class once a week, sometimes twice after preparation.
And...
I'm still recovering from TWI's poisonous effect on my love of God's Word.
I, like most of us, drank a lot of Kool-Aid!
However, this year I've made a quantum leap in my ability and motivation to 'just read' the Bible.
I'm reading:
3 pages of OT
3 pages of psalms
3 pages of NT
& 3 pages of Gospels
on about 5 out of 7 mornings
WITH PURE UNCONTAMINATED PLEASURE.
[Maybe 'TRUST' is a better word -
"peasure" is not to imply that scripture doesn't convict me]
Can you believe it? I hardly can.
(it takes me about an hour)
I should invite all the neighbors in
AND kill the fatted calf!
This pleasure's been mine now for a couple of months -
though I've been doing 3 pages a day of psalms for a year or more.
No one thing did it - just living life, I think.
Time and effort (to understand the Bible and live by it)
I also credit reading of ancient and modern Christian and Jewish writings with integrity (lately, James Kugel and Bernard of Clairvaux).
It's been worth the struggle - though I haven't experienced it as a struggle to overcome the poison -just as a struggle to be faithful and live by the Book's finest deep message - that only comes through a knowledge of the particulars (to me, at least) - a struggle that hasn't and won't abate as long as I'm on this side, I guess.
Whether you recover love for Bible reading is up to you. I can only speak for myself. I'm glad I have. Maybe TWI helped by making it such a struggle.
Re:"During our church time I began to explore other belief systems out of curiosity, and goddess spirituality/Wiccan beliefs were electrifying to me."
This Wiccan religion seems to be catching on. We have several adherents here and they seem to be as happy as frogs on lilly pads. But I have one big question for you guys.. Just WHY are you guys so loathe to dismiss all the supernatural stuff to myth and/or superstition?
It looks more and more to me that people just have to have their religions to feel like they have purpose in life. Doesn't really matter if they are Muslim, Hindu or Christian. The fact that they BELIEVE (oh Gawd, how the suicide bombers believe) makes them alright.
It's atheists that get the brunt of criticism, you know. Take on faith SOMETHING for Heaven's sake!! Otherwise you'll be branded a heathen or infidel and ripe for the vat of boiling oil. :(-->
How many people were told that "researching" meant "re-searching" the searches that had already been done, by VP? GAD that ticked me off.
Me! Me! Me!
Heck, I think we all were told that, more so as the years went by and more people were coming up with stuff that contradicted Wierwille.
Ticked me off too, especially since reserach doesn't mean "search again".
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Main Entry: 1re·search
Pronunciation: ri-'s&rch, 'rE-"
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French recerche, from recerchier to investigate thoroughly, from Old French, from re- + cerchier to search -- more at SEARCH
1 : careful or diligent search
2 : studious inquiry or examination; especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws
3 : the collecting of information about a particular subject
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dmiller
Yes -- and No. And that is my final definitive answer!!
;)-->
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Sunesis
Yes. Since the Word took the place of the absent Christ, we nitpicked it to death. We became bibliophiles (a term used in theological circles) - those who worship the Bible. We examined the tree endlessly (word studies, numerical significance, greek, hebrew, etc.) and thus were not able to see the forest.
We neglected the truths that, as Christ said "the truth is within you" or as others wrote, you have no need man teach you. We neglected the holy spirit, or comfortor which Christ sent into the world after his resurrection to teach us, guide us and comfort us.
The Bible is a guide. God and Jesus Christ are so much bigger than that, they cannot be contained in the Book. We never realized that. We became bound to the letter - no different than the pharisees or sadducees. The result, as we can clearly see in TWI II and III is bondage.
Many people can spout off scripture and verse, it does not make them spirtual nor give them a relationship with God.
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excathedra
maybe that's why the bible makes me so sick, sunesis
but god and jesus don't
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Sunesis
I understand ex. We all have our own timetables. I never quite gave it up, but I certainly don't study for hours on end like I used to. Yet, its funny, God still seems to be able to teach me and show me truths.
As cultures, ages, centuries and times change, I believe the Bible is flexible to be applicable to each day and time. Its like McDonalds, when we were kids, it was a little drive in with two arches. As our generation grew, it grew and adapted, first you could be seated inside and eat, then the arches disappeared, then playgrounds for kids, etc.
In the same way, the church and Christianity cannot remain static and inflexible, as a little drive-in, so to speak. I think many Christians have realized God is so much bigger - as the Gospel writer said, the book cannot contain all that Jesus did. In the same respect, the Bible cannot contain all that God or his Son is. It can give us a hint, or a glimpse. I sense a movement, that God is showing this to people. Its time to move beyond the black and white, Calvinistic, fundamentalism. That man-made religous dogmatism will not work in the coming centuries.
We need to get to the Christ of love and the Spirit of Truth and following it as it inspires the inner man and not the God of war and law of the old testament - of which Christ came to deliver us from.
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diazbro
So aside from the "retemories" (there is some
Wayspeak for ya) I don't recall actually studying the actual bible very much unless you
consider reading what VPW and other Way leaders
wrote about the bible as a valid substitute.
Basically when we were told to "work the word"
it usually meant that you were to use Way bookstore products as you read the bible.
And many inscribed entire way teachings into
the margins of bibles so they could have
quick and easy access to this information at
a moments notice.
Like I had several twigmates who copied the
4 crucified teaching into their bible so they
could defend the "intergrity of the word" against those reprobates who had the audacity to
suggest that it was just JC and two others who
were crucified.
also TWI loved to talk ABOUT the bible but very little was left to personal study and consideration - they always wanted you to be
reading some way book or class syllabus while
you read the bible.
do you remember that question they used to ask
"Have you ever just sat down and read the bible" ? Well sure but you can't do that for very long without someone wanting to horn in
on that time with some way teaching.
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simpleton
No, but only because my memory is so bad I couldn't remember any of it.
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mj412
YES!
and Im very glad it did .
the way is responsible for making the bible a book of integrity for me, I will forever look at my life by what the bible speaks as a standard to me.
It is indeed the personal ideas and thoughts about what the bible may say and what some man or women thinks it means or what God told only them it means I am bolting away from .
which the way taught me to do as well, although I do not believe that was their intent heh .
I believe the Holy spirit does speak to each of of personaly and I mean to say a key word in that statement is each PERSON is able to listen to God as an individual and procede as they deem needed.
I am not keen on these words of prophecy to change peoples life myself.
no trust in why would my God tell you and not me and what is up IF i cant hear him and He needs another person to what bully me into hearing the truth for my life?
can not think that way. do not plan too either .
If I thought I should do something and I read for myself the bible clearly states I should not, I would not do it.
I get fuzzy on what I should do sometimes and that is where I have learned to live in faith for the Lord to guide me in my ignorance for living.
I do not debate the bible anymore, if I truly believe I know what the bible says on a matter and someone points blanks asks me or makes a statement to the contary (and they are friends and we are engaging in conversation) I will defend what I know as truth and declare it as truth from the bible.
I will not change my mind even if someone disagrees. But I can agree to disagree.
I do not teach the bible tho, I try to live it which is difficult enough for me.
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Raf
How many people were told that "researching" meant "re-searching" the searches that had already been done, by VP? GAD that ticked me off.
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Bramble
I guess I’m one of those dreaded ‘ threw the baby out with the bath water’ types.
I was the way’s version of chapter and verse for many years, each year more miserable than the last.
After we left (5 years now) we did some exway ministry stuff, but had no great experience there, the ‘twig’ seemed very controlling. Moved onto churches, cuz I thought we should, people were nice, lots of activities for kids, but could never really settle down in one.
During our church time I began to explore other belief systems out of curiosity, and goddess spirituality/Wiccan beliefs were electrifying to me.
I studied these beliefs while still attending a church for quite a while. Tried several times to get excited about Christian/Bible beliefs but that was gone–like it evaporated, disappeared..
I finally admitted to myself that I had changed, and wanted to continue on this path, and so I have.
Chapter and verse brought much turmoil and stress to my life. I don’t miss it, gave enough of my life to it. All my happy memories of good times were pretty much spoiled by our last years IN, and by M&A.
I’m not one who gives the Way big credit for saving me or teaching me about God, or about life. It did teach me about being wary of those who have the absolute truth, the true religion.
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Plotinus
I've been out of TWI since, like 1977.
I've been to a really good seminary.
I'm ordained to gospel ministry by God and the Presbyterian Church (USA).
I've served three fine churches,
preaching biblically every Sunday after,
many hours of preparation.
I teach an hour-long Bible class once a week, sometimes twice after preparation.
And...
I'm still recovering from TWI's poisonous effect on my love of God's Word.
I, like most of us, drank a lot of Kool-Aid!
However, this year I've made a quantum leap in my ability and motivation to 'just read' the Bible.
I'm reading:
3 pages of OT
3 pages of psalms
3 pages of NT
& 3 pages of Gospels
on about 5 out of 7 mornings
WITH PURE UNCONTAMINATED PLEASURE.
[Maybe 'TRUST' is a better word -
"peasure" is not to imply that scripture doesn't convict me]
Can you believe it? I hardly can.
(it takes me about an hour)
I should invite all the neighbors in
AND kill the fatted calf!
This pleasure's been mine now for a couple of months -
though I've been doing 3 pages a day of psalms for a year or more.
No one thing did it - just living life, I think.
Time and effort (to understand the Bible and live by it)
I also credit reading of ancient and modern Christian and Jewish writings with integrity (lately, James Kugel and Bernard of Clairvaux).
It's been worth the struggle - though I haven't experienced it as a struggle to overcome the poison -just as a struggle to be faithful and live by the Book's finest deep message - that only comes through a knowledge of the particulars (to me, at least) - a struggle that hasn't and won't abate as long as I'm on this side, I guess.
Whether you recover love for Bible reading is up to you. I can only speak for myself. I'm glad I have. Maybe TWI helped by making it such a struggle.
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Sudo
Bramble,
Re:"During our church time I began to explore other belief systems out of curiosity, and goddess spirituality/Wiccan beliefs were electrifying to me."
This Wiccan religion seems to be catching on. We have several adherents here and they seem to be as happy as frogs on lilly pads. But I have one big question for you guys.. Just WHY are you guys so loathe to dismiss all the supernatural stuff to myth and/or superstition?
It looks more and more to me that people just have to have their religions to feel like they have purpose in life. Doesn't really matter if they are Muslim, Hindu or Christian. The fact that they BELIEVE (oh Gawd, how the suicide bombers believe) makes them alright.
It's atheists that get the brunt of criticism, you know. Take on faith SOMETHING for Heaven's sake!! Otherwise you'll be branded a heathen or infidel and ripe for the vat of boiling oil.
:(-->
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Bramble
Quote:
Just WHY are you guys so loathe to dismiss all the supernatural stuff to myth and/or superstition?
****
Don't know, Sudo. Do you? Seriously, you think I can answer that??
Could it just be differences in human nature? Genetic? Or attempts to bring order out of chaos? I don't know.
As for people treating you like crap cuz you're an athiest--hey that wasn't me! How rude, I say. I'm all,"Be free little butterfly!"
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Oakspear
Heck, I think we all were told that, more so as the years went by and more people were coming up with stuff that contradicted Wierwille.
Ticked me off too, especially since reserach doesn't mean "search again".
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Main Entry: 1re·search
Pronunciation: ri-'s&rch, 'rE-"
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French recerche, from recerchier to investigate thoroughly, from Old French, from re- + cerchier to search -- more at SEARCH
1 : careful or diligent search
2 : studious inquiry or examination; especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws
3 : the collecting of information about a particular subject
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WordWolf
I can top that....
How many were told this by a splinter group AFTER LEAVING TWI?
And, yes, it was obvious even then that I was being told "re-read" instead of
"re-search". No, thanks, I'd rather "sit around reading the Bible" instead.
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