The authority issue is interesting when one thinks of the issue of membership.
We were always told that TWI had no members - they kept records of grad status of various classes, but one never went through any form of joining ceremony so one was not effectively subscribing to a predefined set of rules out,ining privileges, responsibilities and structure.
One therefore made no official assent to accept any authority. If you join the LDS you must assent to accept the authority of the Prophet and the General Authorities, if you join the Catholic Church you must accept the authority of the Bishops and the Pope. Records are made and kept.
I never had to sign anything or make a public assent that I accepted the authority of VPW and yet for some years I implicitly accepted it. Anybody in a leadership position claimed it for their area and sometimes as we know, misused it.
But they had only as much authority as we were prepared to allow them. There was nothing to leave or resign from - it was a matter of disassociation - them from us (M&A) or we from them. It's different with other groupings - you have to write a letter to LDS HQ to have your name removed from membership records for example, and I am not sure if there is any arrangement at all to officially leave the Roman Catholic Church.
Garth... I'll take that one... it's from "Meet the Parents" (the movie)... the character's name was Gaylord Focker. I believe it's a euphemism for "f***ers"... so, instead of writing out a word that's banned, she uses the term... endearingly sometimes... I think... maybe...
It's a general impression... I was in 74, out 80 or 81... were there signs from the beginning? in hindsight I think the answer is yes... when you look back on his youth, his first experiences with different churches and how he "had problems", to the setting up of an organization within which he had absolute power... (took care of those 'problems didn't he? don't fix 'em, figure out a way around them)... I also think that since it was set up by him, for him, to fill his needs, no one else will be able to run it and it will wither and die... as it is doing now...
it's just an impression, but things just fit too conveniently for it to have been coincidence... IMO
well... there are many around here who were in much longer than I was... like I said, it's a general impression... that I came to in hindsight many years removed...
IMO, veepee always had trouble "following the rules"... from the days of his youth when he was a wild child, to his early pastorates where I heard he "had a few troubles"... so he sets up his own "ministry" where he makes the rules... he's in a position of total authority...
Now, he didn't change his "wild child" or "errant" ways, he just set up his own thing where he didn't have to answer to anyone else, didn't have to worry about any 'higher ups' finding out what was going on... he was THE 'higher up'...
He had a gift of getting people to buy into 'what he was selling', I believe the man could've sold ice cream to eskimos... then he discovers some really great teachings by Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger, puts 'em all together and starts selling them... all the while building his cadre of faithful followers by expecting and demanding complete devotion...
And it is all by his rules... he still hasn't changed his ways... only started building a loyal following of folks who are convinced he's "the one"... calls himself 'the teacher', allows others to believe and promote him as THE man of God... still hasn't changed his "wild child" ways... but now has followers who have bought into his 'rules'...
Then he notices the Jesus movement catching on... hooks up with Doop and Heefner (forgive me if I mispelled their names)... now he's got an "in" with all the youngsters... systematically takes their flocks and starts fleecing them...
Still hasn't changed his ways from his "wild child" days... but he doesn't have to... he answers to no one but veepee... it's all set up and running smoothly... he can do what he wants... now the empire starts expanding exponentially... he takes folks hunger for the love of God and redirects it... as he always has...
People who hungered for God's love and God's Word hunger for his words, his love and his affection... because he set himself up as, and convinced folks he was, THE MAN OF GOD. God's spokesman here on earth.
To him it was a smorgasboard beyond his wildest dreams but he still had never changed from the "wildness of his youth"...
There's more, details can be filled in here and there but maybe you can get the general idea... Gosh, I could type for a long time... it's only my impression, but it all fits together so easily... IMO
Tom very simple and true. You could put in the Dr. part and so much more but I believe from the onset it was always BAD. The one bad apple that did something to the rest.
Well put. Definatly something to concider. I was around from "76-89". I was not at the heart of the info-structure but on the edge of it with corps. So my experiance was not direct with V.P. I will say I was very well treated by leadership except when the MICRO-management jerks were in place.
I started experiancing the "rein of terror" while in the Corps. If what happened to me while I was in the corps, was indicative of who V.P was than I'm thankful the man is no longer here.
Tom your perception for some reason makes me feel sad. I guess I was hoping that there was more spirituality to this man. He was so damn conviencing and so were his teachings.
I guess I'm sad because I gave my all and I still greive.
i gave my all------was one off those hot button set of words that really ....ed me off. Veepee would go off how he gave his whole life bla bla bla and i would say to my self what the F do u think we are doing here we are giveing as much as u so shut up .
I guess in my mind, in comparison to V.Ps life of service, I didn't rate. No wonder why I pushed so hard for so long. It was my all in all and it still wasn't good enough.... Thanks for the aha! :D--> Comparing suck! :(-->
non of us measures up to him. never enough money, never enough time, never enough classes. just never enough. the sonship rights really were just for him. we were second rate citzens.
in twi eyes we just feel short. we were to strive to be better.
Let us see, from 71 to 87, 16 years or so,I moved 12 times, went wow, married a fellow cult member, spent all my vacations in a cornfield, birthed our children at home due to no money, gave up many good jobs, drank too much to forget the pain, but it couldn't have been pain cause it was God's word wasn't it? Became paranoid of those outside, feared police, government,the devil, devil spirits, and feared those above me in the cult!!! Man, I'd like to sign up again! It was John 10 10 and it was great! Please pass the kool aid!
Yup Imbus it is sobering! But there is more! Way Corps assignments, evaluations, LEAD,Lightbearers,5th corps weddings, corps week,etc and etc! But on the good side ,I've got a wonderful wife and three beautiful Christian daughters. Maybe God does work in mysterious ways!
When VP first started his "ministry", he didn't have much luck with winning people his own age to be his blindly obedient followers. VP's age group had some life experience and healthy skepticism under their belts and weren't fooled by his snake oil sales pitch.
At my age, 47, if a stranger told me to give them money so I could take a bible class that would change my whole life, I would tell them to go away. At age 20, I didn't have the life experience, the learned skepticism and good judgment I now have. At 20, I believed the stranger that offered me this "magic class" for a price. I paid my hard earned $100 and took the magic class because I thought the "salesperson" would deliver the goods they'd promised. It took time and hard won maturity, but I found out the "goods" were really a load of crap.
Yeah, OM and clones can argue that we gave this power to TWI. But most of us were kids. VP figured that out and that's why he targeted our age group rather than 30, 40 and 50 somethings. We were naive, looking for "truth". We were the "Target Market" for VP's slickly packaged and promoted "truth, love and goodness" tour. Remember, it was the cool and cute guys in Pressed Down, Shaken Together and Running Over, not Lawrence Welk Running Over.
Do I feel like a maroon for getting involved with TWI when I was 20? No. I was a good hearted young person who wanted to learn the truth. I was taken advantage of by middle aged men who knew what they were doing. Shame on them and shame on anyone who continues to defend these thieves, rapists and all around sadistic control freaks.
C'mon Mary, don't be shy...tell us what you really think. ;)-->
Yep...I think Tom Strange summed it up quite nicely. Mr. Wierwille was definitely a maverick who loved being the top banana, answerable only to himself. He certainly hit paydirt when he tapped into the Jesus hippies. A lot of folks don't realize that just before the "youth explosion" and putting the class on film...A whole bunch of older folks all walked out on Veepee because he started teaching tithing when previously he had taught against it. I guess he was already laying the groundwork to appropriate funds for his empire.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
4
6
4
7
Popular Days
May 19
23
May 23
9
May 20
8
May 21
5
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 4 posts
WordWolf 6 posts
Tom Strange 4 posts
imbus 7 posts
Popular Days
May 19 2004
23 posts
May 23 2004
9 posts
May 20 2004
8 posts
May 21 2004
5 posts
shazdancer
Dear 3Cents,
I agree with you. The next step in recovery is to ask one's self, "What is it IN ME that made believing this attractive to me?"
A tough question, but worth answering, if we're not going to get fooled-then-abused ever again.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Trefor Heywood
The authority issue is interesting when one thinks of the issue of membership.
We were always told that TWI had no members - they kept records of grad status of various classes, but one never went through any form of joining ceremony so one was not effectively subscribing to a predefined set of rules out,ining privileges, responsibilities and structure.
One therefore made no official assent to accept any authority. If you join the LDS you must assent to accept the authority of the Prophet and the General Authorities, if you join the Catholic Church you must accept the authority of the Bishops and the Pope. Records are made and kept.
I never had to sign anything or make a public assent that I accepted the authority of VPW and yet for some years I implicitly accepted it. Anybody in a leadership position claimed it for their area and sometimes as we know, misused it.
But they had only as much authority as we were prepared to allow them. There was nothing to leave or resign from - it was a matter of disassociation - them from us (M&A) or we from them. It's different with other groupings - you have to write a letter to LDS HQ to have your name removed from membership records for example, and I am not sure if there is any arrangement at all to officially leave the Roman Catholic Church.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Garth... I'll take that one... it's from "Meet the Parents" (the movie)... the character's name was Gaylord Focker. I believe it's a euphemism for "f***ers"... so, instead of writing out a word that's banned, she uses the term... endearingly sometimes... I think... maybe...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Sorry I misunderstood Wordwolf
If the questions is how much control did TWI actualy exert over us?--THey controled everything --in some cases our very lives.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
So,
When did it all start?
Was that one of the reasons the organization was originally formed, back
thru twi back to Vesper Chimes? Was it always part of the original plan?
Or did it creep in at some point? Did someone join and bring it with him as
he got to the inner circle, or was it always in the background?
Was twi originally DESIGNED to be authoritative, or was it tinkered with later
until it BECAME authoritative?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
WW, my vote goes with "in the original"... it all fits like a shoe in a glove...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Were there signs of it from the beginning, Tom, or is this
a general impression you have?
I'm hoping some of the old-timers can shed some light on
this. Possibly some who got out early, or some who stayed
too late...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
It's a general impression... I was in 74, out 80 or 81... were there signs from the beginning? in hindsight I think the answer is yes... when you look back on his youth, his first experiences with different churches and how he "had problems", to the setting up of an organization within which he had absolute power... (took care of those 'problems didn't he? don't fix 'em, figure out a way around them)... I also think that since it was set up by him, for him, to fill his needs, no one else will be able to run it and it will wither and die... as it is doing now...
it's just an impression, but things just fit too conveniently for it to have been coincidence... IMO
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
We have some newcomers, Tom, and it sounds like you were
around for a while (longer than I thought).
For the sake of the studio audience, please fill in some
of the details. Some people arrived late and missed our
earlier discussions on the GSC....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
well... there are many around here who were in much longer than I was... like I said, it's a general impression... that I came to in hindsight many years removed...
IMO, veepee always had trouble "following the rules"... from the days of his youth when he was a wild child, to his early pastorates where I heard he "had a few troubles"... so he sets up his own "ministry" where he makes the rules... he's in a position of total authority...
Now, he didn't change his "wild child" or "errant" ways, he just set up his own thing where he didn't have to answer to anyone else, didn't have to worry about any 'higher ups' finding out what was going on... he was THE 'higher up'...
He had a gift of getting people to buy into 'what he was selling', I believe the man could've sold ice cream to eskimos... then he discovers some really great teachings by Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger, puts 'em all together and starts selling them... all the while building his cadre of faithful followers by expecting and demanding complete devotion...
And it is all by his rules... he still hasn't changed his ways... only started building a loyal following of folks who are convinced he's "the one"... calls himself 'the teacher', allows others to believe and promote him as THE man of God... still hasn't changed his "wild child" ways... but now has followers who have bought into his 'rules'...
Then he notices the Jesus movement catching on... hooks up with Doop and Heefner (forgive me if I mispelled their names)... now he's got an "in" with all the youngsters... systematically takes their flocks and starts fleecing them...
Still hasn't changed his ways from his "wild child" days... but he doesn't have to... he answers to no one but veepee... it's all set up and running smoothly... he can do what he wants... now the empire starts expanding exponentially... he takes folks hunger for the love of God and redirects it... as he always has...
People who hungered for God's love and God's Word hunger for his words, his love and his affection... because he set himself up as, and convinced folks he was, THE MAN OF GOD. God's spokesman here on earth.
To him it was a smorgasboard beyond his wildest dreams but he still had never changed from the "wildness of his youth"...
There's more, details can be filled in here and there but maybe you can get the general idea... Gosh, I could type for a long time... it's only my impression, but it all fits together so easily... IMO
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Tom very simple and true. You could put in the Dr. part and so much more but I believe from the onset it was always BAD. The one bad apple that did something to the rest.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Agreed, Tom. He set up the organization that would let him do what he wanted. A 3-man BOT consisting of himself, his brother, and his best friend.
There are no members at The Way -- so you can't vote!
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
TS,
Well put. Definatly something to concider. I was around from "76-89". I was not at the heart of the info-structure but on the edge of it with corps. So my experiance was not direct with V.P. I will say I was very well treated by leadership except when the MICRO-management jerks were in place.
I started experiancing the "rein of terror" while in the Corps. If what happened to me while I was in the corps, was indicative of who V.P was than I'm thankful the man is no longer here.
Tom your perception for some reason makes me feel sad. I guess I was hoping that there was more spirituality to this man. He was so damn conviencing and so were his teachings.
I guess I'm sad because I gave my all and I still greive.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I/we gave our all ....how sad that they didn`t.
There might have been a whole lot of good accomplished had our efforts been matched ....rather than being hijacked by self serving individuals.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
i gave my all------was one off those hot button set of words that really ....ed me off. Veepee would go off how he gave his whole life bla bla bla and i would say to my self what the F do u think we are doing here we are giveing as much as u so shut up .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
Danny,
I guess in my mind, in comparison to V.Ps life of service, I didn't rate. No wonder why I pushed so hard for so long. It was my all in all and it still wasn't good enough.... Thanks for the aha!
:D--> Comparing suck! 
:(-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
imbus
non of us measures up to him. never enough money, never enough time, never enough classes. just never enough. the sonship rights really were just for him. we were second rate citzens.
in twi eyes we just feel short. we were to strive to be better.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
smitty
Let us see, from 71 to 87, 16 years or so,I moved 12 times, went wow, married a fellow cult member, spent all my vacations in a cornfield, birthed our children at home due to no money, gave up many good jobs, drank too much to forget the pain, but it couldn't have been pain cause it was God's word wasn't it? Became paranoid of those outside, feared police, government,the devil, devil spirits, and feared those above me in the cult!!! Man, I'd like to sign up again! It was John 10 10 and it was great! Please pass the kool aid!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
Smitty,
Well I guess that says it all. Boy when you look at your life factually it is rather sobering.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
smitty
Yup Imbus it is sobering! But there is more! Way Corps assignments, evaluations, LEAD,Lightbearers,5th corps weddings, corps week,etc and etc! But on the good side ,I've got a wonderful wife and three beautiful Christian daughters. Maybe God does work in mysterious ways!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mary Cate
When VP first started his "ministry", he didn't have much luck with winning people his own age to be his blindly obedient followers. VP's age group had some life experience and healthy skepticism under their belts and weren't fooled by his snake oil sales pitch.
At my age, 47, if a stranger told me to give them money so I could take a bible class that would change my whole life, I would tell them to go away. At age 20, I didn't have the life experience, the learned skepticism and good judgment I now have. At 20, I believed the stranger that offered me this "magic class" for a price. I paid my hard earned $100 and took the magic class because I thought the "salesperson" would deliver the goods they'd promised. It took time and hard won maturity, but I found out the "goods" were really a load of crap.
Yeah, OM and clones can argue that we gave this power to TWI. But most of us were kids. VP figured that out and that's why he targeted our age group rather than 30, 40 and 50 somethings. We were naive, looking for "truth". We were the "Target Market" for VP's slickly packaged and promoted "truth, love and goodness" tour. Remember, it was the cool and cute guys in Pressed Down, Shaken Together and Running Over, not Lawrence Welk Running Over.
Do I feel like a maroon for getting involved with TWI when I was 20? No. I was a good hearted young person who wanted to learn the truth. I was taken advantage of by middle aged men who knew what they were doing. Shame on them and shame on anyone who continues to defend these thieves, rapists and all around sadistic control freaks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
C'mon Mary, don't be shy...tell us what you really think.
;)-->
Yep...I think Tom Strange summed it up quite nicely. Mr. Wierwille was definitely a maverick who loved being the top banana, answerable only to himself. He certainly hit paydirt when he tapped into the Jesus hippies. A lot of folks don't realize that just before the "youth explosion" and putting the class on film...A whole bunch of older folks all walked out on Veepee because he started teaching tithing when previously he had taught against it. I guess he was already laying the groundwork to appropriate funds for his empire.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
smitty
Well said ,Mary Cate, We don't have to apologize to anyone for being young and idealistic, it beats the hell out of being old and cynical!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mary Cate
Thanks, smitty. I am just glad that I got out when I did and learned to be skeptical-now that I am old.
Uncle Hairy,
But I did tell you what I really think.
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.