(Initially posted as a private post, but I think ought to be shown here)
Maybe its me, but I keep getting this image of the good ship Wierwille sinking ala TWItanic, and Oldies and Johniam trying desperately to bail out the water using pint sized buckets saying, "But its a good ship! I *know* it is!! We had so much **fun** on this ship!", while the rest of the exTWIers have gone their different ways in their lifeboats so long ago.
Meanwhile Smikeol is blithely sitting in the captains quarters wishing vainly for all the old leaders to come back from their lifeboats and master his preciouussssssssss PFAL with him.......
quote:You've recently had this pointed out-3 different times by 3 different
posters-that this is EXACTLY what you did here.
So, you can't claim you had no idea this quote was about anything
OTHER than legal advice pertaining to the laws of the land.
Thanks Wordwolf. I removed the author's name at his request; but it still sits there, like a diamond, in all its magnificent glory. It's simple, yet deep. Brilliant.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
ANY, group or organizeation only has as much "power" and/or "authority" over a person's life is determined by how much "power" and/or "authority" that person gives them.
It is a statement of fact that, many groups and/or organizations have abused the power and/or authority given to them. Such groups are subtle in there techniques. These groups seem to prey upon people who want to "do good" for themselves and/or others.
The greater the amount of "power" and/or "authority" that an individule gives away the greater the potential the abuse could be. Hopefully, when people begin to see abuse (to themselves or others), they have the courage to take back whatever "power" and/or "authority" that they gave and leave such a group.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
"The abuser has no power over the abused except that which the abused one's actions allow."
Alas, this is indeed a true statement.
Why did the abused allow the abuses? Fear. Intimidation. Threats. Lack of knowledge and/or understanding of God's Word. Lack of confidence in God. Too much confidence in men, particularly men who claim to speak for God. Respect of persons.
TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
Repeat it to yourself. In or out, it is true.
"If you leave, God will not protect you!" They're trying to instill fear in you. So they can have power over you. TWI is not God. Leaving TWI is not leaving God. Don't let their deception work. Don't let their attempt to instill fear in you work. Reject the fear. Reject their claim of power over you. TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
"You'll be a Greasespot by midnight." First of all, that's stupid: it doesn't take nearly that long to register at this site. Play your cards right and you'll be a Greasespot by dinnertime. And that's a good thing: because here we are free from their threats and intimidation. We may have our spats, and they may run deep, but we keep coming back because we can. We can dialogue. We can learn from our disagreements. No enforced like-mindedness. No overseer telling us what we can and cannot say, what we can and cannot think. No man has power over us. TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
I know, it's easier said than done. You have family in there. Leaving TWI may put you at risk of losing a husband, a wife, a child. There's no easy answer there. But God is still God. You got in because you wanted a better relationship with Him, right? Well, here's your chance: is THIS what you think He wants for you? Is THIS where you think HE wants you to be? Maybe. Maybe for the sake of your family, He needs YOU in that place at this time. But no matter where you are, whether it's corps or a branch or a home fellowship or anywhere else, you are an ambassador for CHRIST, not for TWI. Stand up: your strength is needed, and you have none. But God does. Stand up, and in His strength, it's time to fight back. Fight for your family, fight for your integrity, fight for your faith. You may lose some friends in the process. If so, they are not true friends, and you'll find others. You may lose some family: no one wants to do that. It's hard. Too easy to talk yourself out of it. Do what you can. You've got God on your side.
When they try to control, deny them the power.
When they try to manipulate, deny them the power.
When they threaten with fear, deny them the power.
When they threaten with abuse, deny them the power.
When they threaten with litigation, deny them the power.
When they threaten with shame, deny them the power.
THEY ARE WRONG to control, to manipulate, to threaten, to litigate, to slander.
THEY ARE WRONG to covet, to distort the scripture for their selfish ends.
But they can only be effective if you allow it. Don't allow it. Deny them the power.
"Much. Social and psychological pressures steal authority from the member."
But I disagree with the word "steal." It wasn't stolen. We surrendered it. We surrendered to the pleasures they offered and the pressures they imposed, but ultimately it is we who surrendered.
Does anyone remember the saying."A suggestion is paramount to a command". I learned that in the corps. That you hop to on any given suggestion. This I did not learn from my parents or any athority but TWI. I was so good at it I anticapated what the suggestion would be,and did it. That my friend is either being overly responcible, walking by the spirit or brainwashed. Oooooppppps there is that word. I believe it was alot of all three. That is just MO
That's how they got you to surrender your authority, and your good judgment.
(In some cases, you were drugged. Nothing I write here applies to you).
You did it because you were deceived. But you did it. Now it's time to take it back.
Separate and distinct from that is the sin of the one who deceived you; particularly if the deception was intentional. But that's not the point of this thread.
How did good people get to the point in their lives where the word of a TWI leader was tantamount to a direct order from the Almighty Himself? How did good people who wanted to serve God fail to recognize sin for what it was? How did good people who wanted to be good stewards find themselves forking over more money than they could afford, in defiance of Biblical principles of sound stewardship and in the utter absence of Biblical commands governing what amount to give?
We were deceived. We surrendered our power (our error) because we were deceived (their error). We surrendered our judgment (our sin) because they distorted God's Word (their sin). We surrendered our sound minds (our mistake) because they manipulated us in God's name (their treachery).
Until one day, for whatever reason, we said "Stop."
Maybe it was because TWI threw you out and you got tired of beating against the door begging them to let you back in, and instead you decided to just say "Stop."
Maybe it was because you came to your senses and they gave you one ridiculous order too many so you decided to just say "Stop."
Maybe it's because you threw off the blinders they used to shelter your mind from the process of critical thinking, and instead you thought for yourself and decided it was time to just say "Stop."
And you started to take it back.
Power over your finances: you took it back.
Power over your judgment: you took it back.
Power over your body: you took it back.
Power over your marriage and family and relationships: you took it back.
quote:Why did the abused allow the abuses? Fear. Intimidation. Threats. Lack of knowledge and/or understanding of God's Word. Lack of confidence in God. Too much confidence in men, particularly men who claim to speak for God. Respect of persons.
And add to that list...love.
We loved God, and wanted to demonstrate our love in our actions. We loved the man of God, as the one who brought us God's Word, and wanted to show him our appreciation and respect. We who are survivors of religious abuse loved the man of God in our families, our communities, and our Biblical research organization.
This is why sexual abuse by clergymen carries as much trauma for the survivor of abuse as incest or spousal abuse do. Because the authority was surrendered to the perpetrator (if the abuse was not forced) out of love.
We loved who the perpetrator portrayed himself to be. It was only when we realized that who the perpetrator REALLY was, that we took our authority back.
Shaz...omg...THAT nails it....LOVE! Everything I did was because I was told that was how to best love/serve God...Every agonising decision boiled down to *If I didn`t comply, it was because I didn`t love God or my bretheren enough*...
Thanks Shaz....one of those blinding flash technicolor moments wgere things make sense all of a sudden.
Thanks Wordwolf. I removed the author's name at his request; but it still sits there, like a diamond, in all its magnificent glory. It's simple, yet deep. Brilliant.
_"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."_
*Finally*, Oldies, in gleeful desperation, snatches that quote that he got from Zixar (who most likely is *kicking* himself about now ;)-->), emblazes it in gold, and holds it up for all the world to see, thinking that he has finally found a solid basis of defense of his 'Father in the Word' against his negative railers and detractors.
... Unfortunately, it was only to be an illusion. ... Or should I say, delusion.
Exactly. I'm sorry I left that out. I hinted at it when I said, "respect of persons."
We loved, and they took advantage of that love.
We respected, and they took advantage of that respect.
We trusted, and they took advantage of that trust.
And in a way, a very real way, we let them. That's what kills us. That's what eats at us inside. We wish they had held guns to our heads, because at least other people would understand why we allowed these things to happen in our lives. But they didn't hold guns to our heads; they held Bibles to our hearts, and threatened to take that away from us if we didn't comply. And some people don't get the message that that threat could feel (not be, feel) just as real as a .44 aimed between the eyes.
Some of us saw through that. Others did not. We surrendered: out of love (misunderstood by us), respect (misplaced toward them) and trust (misused by them). CHRISTIAN VIEW ALERT: Some of us sinned, which is bad. Some of us were led to sin, which is worse. We were led to sin in God's name, which is far worse. God may be clear in His contempt for sin, but He is more clear in His anger for those who lead others to sin, particularly in His name. But this thread is about the authority we allowed leaders to have over us, so I won't dwell on the leaders who abused that authority. I think there's another thread for that.
I never thought that the abuse, when it came, was godly or right. But I deluded myself into thinking that TWI overall was good and godly and that the abuses were because some leader was "off the Word". Surely everything would be alright when this leader was replaced, or was reproved or whatever. I never suspected that it was top-down rot.
I allowed the abuse to continue because I had seen those who fought back summarily thrown out, and I thought that I could make changes from within if I just held on. In fact, I was able to make some minor, local changes, but it never really got better for long.
It wasn't until WayDale & Grease Spot Cafe that I realized that the abuse was systemic. It wasn't until WayDale & Grease Spot Cafe that I realized that they were able to manipulate and abuse me because I was IGNORANT. If I had no hope that it would ever get better, if I knew that it was the same everywhere, I would have left years earlier.
Once I had seen the light, and had made the decision to get out, I felt much freer.
On the afternoon that my region coordinator threw me out, I felt like a great weight was lifted from me. After he had informed me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships, he began giving me further instructions. I began to laugh. When he questioned me I told him that he had just removed himself from his position of power over me and that i thought it was funny that he was still trying to tell me what to do!
Everything I did was because I was told that was how to best love/serve God
Rascal,
With all due respect. I think you missed the point. Everything you did you did because you believed it when they told you how to...
It's a subtle but powerful distinction. It puts the responsability on you not them.
And I'm not singling you out. It was the same for me and for all of us. Whatever they told us isn't the point. The point where we gave away our power was when we chose to believe what they told us and act on it.
Hard as it is to get out of the way, it's harder to get the way out of you. You can't do that as long as you believe you did anything because of them. You have to realize you did it because you chose to respond to them in the way you did.
Some. If they give an order, you must comply or leave the organization.
I think That is the realistic answer--Did they have more control over me and MINe?? oh--yeah way way more--
BUt in a true sense --If you join an organization you are agreeing to follow their rules--when you no longer wish to follow said rtules you need to leave--
I think there is a difference in the legal question of how much control an organization can have and the psychological question of how much they actually are given
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oldiesman
"TWI HAS NO POWER OVER YOU EXCEPT THAT WHICH YOUR ACTIONS ALLOW."
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GarthP2000
(Initially posted as a private post, but I think ought to be shown here)
Maybe its me, but I keep getting this image of the good ship Wierwille sinking ala TWItanic, and Oldies and Johniam trying desperately to bail out the water using pint sized buckets saying, "But its a good ship! I *know* it is!! We had so much **fun** on this ship!", while the rest of the exTWIers have gone their different ways in their lifeboats so long ago.
Meanwhile Smikeol is blithely sitting in the captains quarters wishing vainly for all the old leaders to come back from their lifeboats and master his preciouussssssssss PFAL with him.......
.....((blub)).....((blub)).....((blub)).....((blub))
(as "Farther My God From Thee." is being played in the distant background)
(Thanks Raf, for the historical tidbit)
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WordWolf
Oldiesman, pg-1, 5/19/04, 10:45am.
Cute.
The original context of that statement was legal,
to someone who is NOT a member of the organization, in regards
to specific legal issues pertaining to the laws of the US.
If it was not a question of legal authority pertaining to the laws of
the land, the original exchange would have gone something
like this:
Organization: we claim title to all uses of this word! Surrender it!
Person: Up yours! It's in the dictionary.
Organization: We cite our authority over you!
Person: I am not a part of your group, and I am not on your property.
You have no legal authority, and I deny you have any other kind, since
I'm not a member!
Organization: You must do what we say!
Person: Bite me!
Organization: Everyone! This is a wicked, wicked man!
Person: Call me whatever names you want, I'll do the same.
Organization: *fumes and leaves*
That was what WOULD have happened if this was NOT a legal issue.
That having been said, that statement, delivered as-is,
is now fair game for discussion in the context of the CURRENT
thread and topic.
[The above was edited to adjust for an edit of the original post.]
That leaves the question of the poll.
The question was:
"How much authority can twi-or ANY religious organization-be said to
wield over its followers?"
Therefore, on-topic discussions can properly include:
twi
any religious organization
psychological issues
sociological issues
Bible issues
religious issues
self-help/recovery issues
political issues (if chosen very specifically to be germane)
consequences of refusal
conformity issues
rebellion issues
societal issues as a whole
Any other post would be legal, but completely off-topic for this
specific thread.
"How much authority can twi-or ANY religious organization-be said to
wield over its followers?"
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washingtonweather
The problem with this quote is oversimplification.
What is the source of any action....incredibly multiple and varied...
that quote is just way too superficial for me.
I don't think I give TWI any authority any more, but I would validate the idea that it is there in my subconsciousness.
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oldiesman
Thanks Wordwolf. I removed the author's name at his request; but it still sits there, like a diamond, in all its magnificent glory. It's simple, yet deep. Brilliant.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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sadie
Garth, sort of like "The Good Ship Lollipop?"
Lick'em or leave'em
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Zshot
ANY, group or organizeation only has as much "power" and/or "authority" over a person's life is determined by how much "power" and/or "authority" that person gives them.
It is a statement of fact that, many groups and/or organizations have abused the power and/or authority given to them. Such groups are subtle in there techniques. These groups seem to prey upon people who want to "do good" for themselves and/or others.
The greater the amount of "power" and/or "authority" that an individule gives away the greater the potential the abuse could be. Hopefully, when people begin to see abuse (to themselves or others), they have the courage to take back whatever "power" and/or "authority" that they gave and leave such a group.
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Raf
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
"The abuser has no power over the abused except that which the abused one's actions allow."
Alas, this is indeed a true statement.
Why did the abused allow the abuses? Fear. Intimidation. Threats. Lack of knowledge and/or understanding of God's Word. Lack of confidence in God. Too much confidence in men, particularly men who claim to speak for God. Respect of persons.
TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
Repeat it to yourself. In or out, it is true.
"If you leave, God will not protect you!" They're trying to instill fear in you. So they can have power over you. TWI is not God. Leaving TWI is not leaving God. Don't let their deception work. Don't let their attempt to instill fear in you work. Reject the fear. Reject their claim of power over you. TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
"You'll be a Greasespot by midnight." First of all, that's stupid: it doesn't take nearly that long to register at this site. Play your cards right and you'll be a Greasespot by dinnertime. And that's a good thing: because here we are free from their threats and intimidation. We may have our spats, and they may run deep, but we keep coming back because we can. We can dialogue. We can learn from our disagreements. No enforced like-mindedness. No overseer telling us what we can and cannot say, what we can and cannot think. No man has power over us. TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow.
I know, it's easier said than done. You have family in there. Leaving TWI may put you at risk of losing a husband, a wife, a child. There's no easy answer there. But God is still God. You got in because you wanted a better relationship with Him, right? Well, here's your chance: is THIS what you think He wants for you? Is THIS where you think HE wants you to be? Maybe. Maybe for the sake of your family, He needs YOU in that place at this time. But no matter where you are, whether it's corps or a branch or a home fellowship or anywhere else, you are an ambassador for CHRIST, not for TWI. Stand up: your strength is needed, and you have none. But God does. Stand up, and in His strength, it's time to fight back. Fight for your family, fight for your integrity, fight for your faith. You may lose some friends in the process. If so, they are not true friends, and you'll find others. You may lose some family: no one wants to do that. It's hard. Too easy to talk yourself out of it. Do what you can. You've got God on your side.
When they try to control, deny them the power.
When they try to manipulate, deny them the power.
When they threaten with fear, deny them the power.
When they threaten with abuse, deny them the power.
When they threaten with litigation, deny them the power.
When they threaten with shame, deny them the power.
THEY ARE WRONG to control, to manipulate, to threaten, to litigate, to slander.
THEY ARE WRONG to covet, to distort the scripture for their selfish ends.
But they can only be effective if you allow it. Don't allow it. Deny them the power.
Deny them the power.
Deny them the power.
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Raf
I voted for:
"Much. Social and psychological pressures steal authority from the member."
But I disagree with the word "steal." It wasn't stolen. We surrendered it. We surrendered to the pleasures they offered and the pressures they imposed, but ultimately it is we who surrendered.
It's time to take it back.
Deny them the power.
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imbus
Does anyone remember the saying."A suggestion is paramount to a command". I learned that in the corps. That you hop to on any given suggestion. This I did not learn from my parents or any athority but TWI. I was so good at it I anticapated what the suggestion would be,and did it. That my friend is either being overly responcible, walking by the spirit or brainwashed. Oooooppppps there is that word. I believe it was alot of all three. That is just MO
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Raf
Ya got fooled. Snookered. Tricked.
You were lied to. Deceived. Manipulated.
That's how they got you to surrender your authority, and your good judgment.
(In some cases, you were drugged. Nothing I write here applies to you).
You did it because you were deceived. But you did it. Now it's time to take it back.
Separate and distinct from that is the sin of the one who deceived you; particularly if the deception was intentional. But that's not the point of this thread.
How did good people get to the point in their lives where the word of a TWI leader was tantamount to a direct order from the Almighty Himself? How did good people who wanted to serve God fail to recognize sin for what it was? How did good people who wanted to be good stewards find themselves forking over more money than they could afford, in defiance of Biblical principles of sound stewardship and in the utter absence of Biblical commands governing what amount to give?
We were deceived. We surrendered our power (our error) because we were deceived (their error). We surrendered our judgment (our sin) because they distorted God's Word (their sin). We surrendered our sound minds (our mistake) because they manipulated us in God's name (their treachery).
Until one day, for whatever reason, we said "Stop."
Maybe it was because TWI threw you out and you got tired of beating against the door begging them to let you back in, and instead you decided to just say "Stop."
Maybe it was because you came to your senses and they gave you one ridiculous order too many so you decided to just say "Stop."
Maybe it's because you threw off the blinders they used to shelter your mind from the process of critical thinking, and instead you thought for yourself and decided it was time to just say "Stop."
And you started to take it back.
Power over your finances: you took it back.
Power over your judgment: you took it back.
Power over your body: you took it back.
Power over your marriage and family and relationships: you took it back.
Deny them the power.
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oldiesman
Raf, good postings.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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shazdancer
Dear Raf,
You said
And add to that list...love.We loved God, and wanted to demonstrate our love in our actions. We loved the man of God, as the one who brought us God's Word, and wanted to show him our appreciation and respect. We who are survivors of religious abuse loved the man of God in our families, our communities, and our Biblical research organization.
This is why sexual abuse by clergymen carries as much trauma for the survivor of abuse as incest or spousal abuse do. Because the authority was surrendered to the perpetrator (if the abuse was not forced) out of love.
We loved who the perpetrator portrayed himself to be. It was only when we realized that who the perpetrator REALLY was, that we took our authority back.
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
Shaz...omg...THAT nails it....LOVE! Everything I did was because I was told that was how to best love/serve God...Every agonising decision boiled down to *If I didn`t comply, it was because I didn`t love God or my bretheren enough*...
Thanks Shaz....one of those blinding flash technicolor moments wgere things make sense all of a sudden.
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GarthP2000
*Finally*, Oldies, in gleeful desperation, snatches that quote that he got from Zixar (who most likely is *kicking* himself about now
;)-->), emblazes it in gold, and holds it up for all the world to see, thinking that he has finally found a solid basis of defense of his 'Father in the Word' against his negative railers and detractors.
... Unfortunately, it was only to be an illusion. ... Or should I say, delusion.
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Raf
Shaz,
Exactly. I'm sorry I left that out. I hinted at it when I said, "respect of persons."
We loved, and they took advantage of that love.
We respected, and they took advantage of that respect.
We trusted, and they took advantage of that trust.
And in a way, a very real way, we let them. That's what kills us. That's what eats at us inside. We wish they had held guns to our heads, because at least other people would understand why we allowed these things to happen in our lives. But they didn't hold guns to our heads; they held Bibles to our hearts, and threatened to take that away from us if we didn't comply. And some people don't get the message that that threat could feel (not be, feel) just as real as a .44 aimed between the eyes.
Some of us saw through that. Others did not. We surrendered: out of love (misunderstood by us), respect (misplaced toward them) and trust (misused by them). CHRISTIAN VIEW ALERT: Some of us sinned, which is bad. Some of us were led to sin, which is worse. We were led to sin in God's name, which is far worse. God may be clear in His contempt for sin, but He is more clear in His anger for those who lead others to sin, particularly in His name. But this thread is about the authority we allowed leaders to have over us, so I won't dwell on the leaders who abused that authority. I think there's another thread for that.
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Oakspear
I never thought that the abuse, when it came, was godly or right. But I deluded myself into thinking that TWI overall was good and godly and that the abuses were because some leader was "off the Word". Surely everything would be alright when this leader was replaced, or was reproved or whatever. I never suspected that it was top-down rot.
I allowed the abuse to continue because I had seen those who fought back summarily thrown out, and I thought that I could make changes from within if I just held on. In fact, I was able to make some minor, local changes, but it never really got better for long.
It wasn't until WayDale & Grease Spot Cafe that I realized that the abuse was systemic. It wasn't until WayDale & Grease Spot Cafe that I realized that they were able to manipulate and abuse me because I was IGNORANT. If I had no hope that it would ever get better, if I knew that it was the same everywhere, I would have left years earlier.
Once I had seen the light, and had made the decision to get out, I felt much freer.
On the afternoon that my region coordinator threw me out, I felt like a great weight was lifted from me. After he had informed me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships, he began giving me further instructions. I began to laugh. When he questioned me I told him that he had just removed himself from his position of power over me and that i thought it was funny that he was still trying to tell me what to do!
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Shellon
Oak said: I told him that he had just removed himself from his position of power over me
=============================================
WHOA! you are absolutely right! I hadn't considered that!
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imbus
Raf and Oakspear,
Thanks for you insight. The longer I hang out at GS the more awareness comes to me of what and how.
It's nice when things resinates from someone elses words. It's like scratching an itch. You finally have Sunesis or it's a a-ha moment.
Thanks so much guys. Love, Imbus
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excathedra
i haven't read this thread because i'm so ....ed
analyze this you gaylords
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imbus
Exie, What you upset about? What has got you upset that you haven't read but are ....ed anyway?
Shazdancer, Thanks for adding the final touch to Rafs post. It was about love for me and wanting to be God's best. Shame on me!
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My3Cents
Rascal,
With all due respect. I think you missed the point. Everything you did you did because you believed it when they told you how to...
It's a subtle but powerful distinction. It puts the responsability on you not them.
And I'm not singling you out. It was the same for me and for all of us. Whatever they told us isn't the point. The point where we gave away our power was when we chose to believe what they told us and act on it.
Hard as it is to get out of the way, it's harder to get the way out of you. You can't do that as long as you believe you did anything because of them. You have to realize you did it because you chose to respond to them in the way you did.
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GarthP2000
excathedra,
Just curious. What is a 'gaylord'?
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templelady
Some. If they give an order, you must comply or leave the organization.
I think That is the realistic answer--Did they have more control over me and MINe?? oh--yeah way way more--
BUt in a true sense --If you join an organization you are agreeing to follow their rules--when you no longer wish to follow said rtules you need to leave--
I think there is a difference in the legal question of how much control an organization can have and the psychological question of how much they actually are given
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