Ive come to the opinion that virtually none of these people are perpetrating deliberate deception. They rationalize it all to themselves and think the things they do are justified in the pursuit of a higher goal.
Amway is certainly one of the most manipulative organizations its ever been my misfortune to be involved with, but I encountered noone there who considered that misleading someone into attending an Amway recruitment meeting under the guise of a "party" was practising deliberate deception. They tell themselves that it IS a party, after all, there are balloons hanging up. And they tell themselves they are doing you a favour recruiting you to the movement, after all..."think of all that money", and visualize how you are going to spend it all!
The only 1 Id imagine must have known he was a deceptive ratbag was L Ron Hubbard.There were too many lies published for him not to know he was a crumb.
The kind of manipulation methods used by the Moonies in the 70s are now being applied daily by telemarketers calling you on the phone, and by high pressure hawkers coming to your door. Does anyone believe that these people go to classes where they are told that they are going to apply these methods to deliberately take advantage of people?
From a historical point of view, I think I'd have to vote for PFAL and the Way Ministry being a multi-level marketing...I'll call it "plan or program" and leave the scheme part out. But in a way it was a scheme, even if I rule out a negative conotation to that word.
VPW was teaching a PFAL series before it was committed to film in 1967. The filming put it into a form where more people could take it. So it could be run anywhere in the world, 100's of classes at the same time. In concert with the Way Tree and twigs "splitting", it does form a basic multi-level marketing program in my mind.
The path of growth was - a twig with people attending, they take PFAL, tell friends, the twig grows and "splits". Now you have two twigs, with two "leaders". Do that a couple more times and you have a Branch of 5 to 7 twigs. From there a Branch leader is assigned who coordinates the twigs. That continues and when you reach 3-5 branches, you have an Area. 1 Area leader, 3-5 Branch leaders, 15 - 20 twig leaders and "leaves", people attending all the twigs. Once there's enough Branches and Areas, you get a Limb.
I wanted to add that of course, this isn't the way a typical Limb grew in to having a Limb Leader, a limb being a state wide entity. What VPW set in motion very early was statewide coordinators at Limb levels when there were only a few branches in a state. Why? To help "move the Word" and get it going. More specifically to establish a homebase of Way leadership that would initiate and maintain outreach. What's moving the Word in the Way ministry? Running meetings that have teachings and enrolling people in classes. The fact that many people did many things to help people with their knowledge of the bible doesn't change the simple fact that historically in the Way, if you didn't run classes you weren't really "moving the Word" or really helping people. In fact it quickly became a value judgment that if you thought you could help people "on your own" with just God and the Word you were on an "ego trip".
Money - PFAL costs money. Even if 2,000 people took PFAL in a year, at what? a 100 bucks a head say, it generates 200,000 dollars. A lot of money but not enough to generate all the properties, staff, equipment, etc. that they Way accrued through the 70's and 80's.
Multiply that 2,000 by 10% income donations of say 200.00 dollars a year per person and it adds 400,000 bucks to the account. Add in some larger contributors and it adds up. (and some larger states like Florida were hitting a million a year in the mid-80's).
It sure quacks like MLM, whether the aims were good or greedy. When I look at how the Way always uses it's money, it's always been used to capitlize internal growth and improvements - properties, staff, improvements, equipments, etc. This increases it's capacity to teach, run more classes, produce more grads, develop more programs for the grads and maintain staff and properties to do that. That's all it does - produce teachings, classes and grads of classes that take more classes. The people themselves are part of an organized and corporately maintained structure of "fellowships" that are self financing, so there's no built-in cost to the Way Nash for the maintenance of it's grads in this fellowship environment, outside of field and home office staff...who are required to do what? Teach meetings and run more classes.
If I ask myself the question - exactly what is the Way International headquarters in New Knoxville built to do - what's the answer? House people and equipment to maintain it's teaching ministry. What's the teaching ministry do? Run meetings and run classes. That seems to be the core "business" of the Way. Everybody pays for classes they take and everybody contributes money to the ministry that teaches the classes after they take them. One heck of a self-perpetuating system.
I think theres a very great tendancy, especially on the part of media to oversimplify a thing and merely label the cult leader as an evil manipulator. Manipulating people with Wilful intent to take advantage and abuse people.Its a simple explanation for mass media consumption.
I used to view it that way myself, but after reading a large number of Histories, especially of Jim Jones, and listening to heaps of tapes recorded within meetings of his movement, I decided that even Jim boy,who is regarded generally as the most evil "cult" leader of last century, was not so wilfully evil as might be assumed.
His ministry started off with high intentions and very great ideals, as so many cults do.
The descent into paranoia and horrifying manipulation comes after years of isolation from criticism and is justified in the mind of the leader step by step.
I recall a few years back, Richard Carlton, on 60 minutes interviewed the leader of a manipulative cult called "The Pod", calling the man an evil manipulator and wilfull brainwasher.
It was quite obvious the man was utterly confused and hurt by Carltons attitude.
This is my view.
I pray God its the correct view and there are not really wilfully evil people out there, deliberately planning to abuse and manipulate the sheep.
Refiner, I am split on that point when I look at the former president of the Way, V.P. Weirwille. I worked with him enough (about 7 years) on his staff at the Way Nash in Ohio to know he wasn't a 24/7 blathering nut out to deliberately hurt people and make himself wealthy using a bible scam. That's my opinion based on my personal dealings with him. At the same time I have to say there are a lot of things he did that I didn't know anything about at the time they were happening and that only unfolded later, and over time. And other things that I did see develop over many years. In essence, he became untrustworthy to me in some key areas of his life. He also managed over time to disqualify himself from a position of "leadership" or service to the flock you refer to. That didn't stop the Way from existing as it was his own shop and he was in charge, but over time I think I've seen the results.
If you're reading around here, you've seen reference to what he said was a direct revelation from God in 1942 that stated to him that if he would teach it, God would teach him the "Word" (the bible) as it hadn't been known since the "first century". Namely, the way it was originally given and intended to be understood.
In my mind, this constitutes what he called his "ministry". That was the specific means of service that he had to offer to people - this enlightened understanding of the bible that he would gain in an ongoing teaching ministry. That's why The Way was built as a teaching and research ministry - bacause that's what he said he believed he was suppposed to do in response to this calling of his - teach it.
If I take that at face value, that's all well and good. As long as people don't break the law they can pretty much do whatever they want. He teaches, people that want to listen and respond, and so on.
Fast forward from 1942 through to the 60's and we see that VPW formalizes his teaching into a live class and then a filmed class that he's charging money for. The price changes over the years but there's always a charge. So now, if you want the teaching that God said he would give VPW if he would teach it you have to pay for it. You have to buy it.
A real conflict with the charging for the teaching is that what VPW said he had to teach was from God. Then he turns around and sells it. It's not his to sell. This information that is only known by VPW, that's said to be essential to even have a basic relationship with God, that constitutes a revolution in religious thinking that hasn't been seen for 2,000 years, that leaves everyone else in the idolatrous dust of darkness...you have to buy for money?
VPW may have prayed every night before he went to bed, "God you know I'm just doing all of this because I want people to really get your Word" but it still doesn't make it right in my mind. Time and again people were refused the teaching of PFAL if they didn't pay the money. You could buy the books and attend a fellowship, but ultimately you had to pony up, pay and attend the Power for Abundant Living class to really get the whole thing.
In my mind, something got seriously bent in VPW's brain to come up with that approach. He did say that when he "gave it away", nobody listened. When he started charging for it, people responded.
Which makes me wonder how much more successful Jesus would have been if He'd thought to ask for donations of bread and fish instead of just giving food away willy nilly to his hungry followers.
quote: Which makes me wonder how much more successful Jesus would have been if He'd thought to ask for donations of bread and fish instead of just giving food away willy nilly to his hungry followers.
Or, as Ray Stevens put it, "Would Jesus Wear A Rolex On His Television Show"? :D-->
Well as I understand it Amway doesn t make its money selling cleaning fluid of washing powder. Amway makes its mnoney selling motivational tapes and seminars to the suckers who have bought the dream of becoming a "Double Diamond", super salesperson/ motivator of others.
Most of the Amwayites I met were poor desperate sods putting in hours and hours getting nowhere and trying to get their minds right enough so they could successfully sell the idea to others and thus climb another rung up the old pyramid.
The JWitnesses never made any money from their "bookselling concern" (Which is what it ultimately was)selling books to the public. They got their money from compulsory monthly quotas of books and magazines flogged to the flock.
Twi is both a religious organization and a multi level marketing scheme. These two entities are are not, either one or the other, but consistantly work hand in hand. They compliment each other...check out Benny Hinn's money making scam, or any of the other TV con artists. They all have ways of raking in money based upon the "God will bless you if you give me your money" scheme. This has been going on for centuries.
Whether or not they are sincere about their particular form of mythology , can be determined by their adherence/ or not...to the actual doctrines and dogmas they espouse. I would suggest that the people at the "bottom" are probably the most sincere about their belief system, while the top dogs are least sincere...Afterall, it's the rank and file that finance the lush life styles of the leadership...you know, the "greatest servants"...look for the contridictions and follow the money.
quote:The JWitnesses never made any money from their "bookselling concern" (Which is what it ultimately was)selling books to the public. They got their money from compulsory monthly quotas of books and magazines flogged to the flock.
When I was in, it was my understanding that JW publications were dirt cheap (I'm talking cost, not content). But even at these real bargain prices, they were a lot cheaper to produce. The profit margin was astronomical.
I forgot where I read that: I THINK it was in the book "Witnesses of Jehovah," which I have long since lost.
Oh, and my memory concurs with Refiner's: The money isn't made by selling the products to the public, but selling them to the followers who MAY accept payment for them when they give them to others, but often do not.
To add to what socks said, VPW's "product" ie his "teaching ministry" had a built in expiration date, unlike religions.
The organization was doomed to fail, in my not-so-humble opinion, upon his death. The whole organization was built on the "revelation" and "research and teachings" of one man. Over time, even before his death, the "product" was found to be faulty, yet because it was all committed to videos, tapes, books, classes, ad infinitum, the "product" couldn't really ever become "new and improved."
When VP's successor tried to introduce the "new and improved" version of the product, disaster ensued, as we all have witnessed.
Yeah...I like that..."built in expiration date", ain't that the truth! When one considers that veepee was the mog, and Christ was absent...it only stands to reason that when veepee finally cashed in his chips, the whole reality of wayworld went kittywompis. The head of the body was no longer alive...what a prediciment! "Veepee, my servant is DEAD, go now, etc. etc. etc." Joshua Martindumb snatched up the mantle and led us all to the promised land of sexual perversions...The expiration date was past...the product tainted...Veepee thought he was Paul and lcm was Timothy. Actually Veepee was P.T. Barnum and lcm was Moe Howard.
Yeah, unc hairy, and part of the whole marketing scheme of the "product" ie ("knowing the Word as it hasn't been known since the 1st century, via VP's 'ministry' ") was dependent on the failure of "organized religion" to deliver. No wonder there was, and is to this day, such animosity towards established Christianity. The whole selling point was that VP had some kind of great "secret" the rest rest of the Christian world has somehow missed for 2,000 years.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it seems that TWI was simply a multi-level marketing scheme.
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Refiner
Ive come to the opinion that virtually none of these people are perpetrating deliberate deception. They rationalize it all to themselves and think the things they do are justified in the pursuit of a higher goal.
Amway is certainly one of the most manipulative organizations its ever been my misfortune to be involved with, but I encountered noone there who considered that misleading someone into attending an Amway recruitment meeting under the guise of a "party" was practising deliberate deception. They tell themselves that it IS a party, after all, there are balloons hanging up. And they tell themselves they are doing you a favour recruiting you to the movement, after all..."think of all that money", and visualize how you are going to spend it all!
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Refiner
The only 1 Id imagine must have known he was a deceptive ratbag was L Ron Hubbard.There were too many lies published for him not to know he was a crumb.
The kind of manipulation methods used by the Moonies in the 70s are now being applied daily by telemarketers calling you on the phone, and by high pressure hawkers coming to your door. Does anyone believe that these people go to classes where they are told that they are going to apply these methods to deliberately take advantage of people?
I think not.
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socks
From a historical point of view, I think I'd have to vote for PFAL and the Way Ministry being a multi-level marketing...I'll call it "plan or program" and leave the scheme part out. But in a way it was a scheme, even if I rule out a negative conotation to that word.
VPW was teaching a PFAL series before it was committed to film in 1967. The filming put it into a form where more people could take it. So it could be run anywhere in the world, 100's of classes at the same time. In concert with the Way Tree and twigs "splitting", it does form a basic multi-level marketing program in my mind.
The path of growth was - a twig with people attending, they take PFAL, tell friends, the twig grows and "splits". Now you have two twigs, with two "leaders". Do that a couple more times and you have a Branch of 5 to 7 twigs. From there a Branch leader is assigned who coordinates the twigs. That continues and when you reach 3-5 branches, you have an Area. 1 Area leader, 3-5 Branch leaders, 15 - 20 twig leaders and "leaves", people attending all the twigs. Once there's enough Branches and Areas, you get a Limb.
I wanted to add that of course, this isn't the way a typical Limb grew in to having a Limb Leader, a limb being a state wide entity. What VPW set in motion very early was statewide coordinators at Limb levels when there were only a few branches in a state. Why? To help "move the Word" and get it going. More specifically to establish a homebase of Way leadership that would initiate and maintain outreach. What's moving the Word in the Way ministry? Running meetings that have teachings and enrolling people in classes. The fact that many people did many things to help people with their knowledge of the bible doesn't change the simple fact that historically in the Way, if you didn't run classes you weren't really "moving the Word" or really helping people. In fact it quickly became a value judgment that if you thought you could help people "on your own" with just God and the Word you were on an "ego trip".
Money - PFAL costs money. Even if 2,000 people took PFAL in a year, at what? a 100 bucks a head say, it generates 200,000 dollars. A lot of money but not enough to generate all the properties, staff, equipment, etc. that they Way accrued through the 70's and 80's.
Multiply that 2,000 by 10% income donations of say 200.00 dollars a year per person and it adds 400,000 bucks to the account. Add in some larger contributors and it adds up. (and some larger states like Florida were hitting a million a year in the mid-80's).
It sure quacks like MLM, whether the aims were good or greedy. When I look at how the Way always uses it's money, it's always been used to capitlize internal growth and improvements - properties, staff, improvements, equipments, etc. This increases it's capacity to teach, run more classes, produce more grads, develop more programs for the grads and maintain staff and properties to do that. That's all it does - produce teachings, classes and grads of classes that take more classes. The people themselves are part of an organized and corporately maintained structure of "fellowships" that are self financing, so there's no built-in cost to the Way Nash for the maintenance of it's grads in this fellowship environment, outside of field and home office staff...who are required to do what? Teach meetings and run more classes.
If I ask myself the question - exactly what is the Way International headquarters in New Knoxville built to do - what's the answer? House people and equipment to maintain it's teaching ministry. What's the teaching ministry do? Run meetings and run classes. That seems to be the core "business" of the Way. Everybody pays for classes they take and everybody contributes money to the ministry that teaches the classes after they take them. One heck of a self-perpetuating system.
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Goey
Refiner,
Have you read this yet?
The Cult That Snapped
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Refiner
I think theres a very great tendancy, especially on the part of media to oversimplify a thing and merely label the cult leader as an evil manipulator. Manipulating people with Wilful intent to take advantage and abuse people.Its a simple explanation for mass media consumption.
I used to view it that way myself, but after reading a large number of Histories, especially of Jim Jones, and listening to heaps of tapes recorded within meetings of his movement, I decided that even Jim boy,who is regarded generally as the most evil "cult" leader of last century, was not so wilfully evil as might be assumed.
His ministry started off with high intentions and very great ideals, as so many cults do.
The descent into paranoia and horrifying manipulation comes after years of isolation from criticism and is justified in the mind of the leader step by step.
I recall a few years back, Richard Carlton, on 60 minutes interviewed the leader of a manipulative cult called "The Pod", calling the man an evil manipulator and wilfull brainwasher.
It was quite obvious the man was utterly confused and hurt by Carltons attitude.
This is my view.
I pray God its the correct view and there are not really wilfully evil people out there, deliberately planning to abuse and manipulate the sheep.
No goey. I havent read that book.
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WordWolf
A while back we had a discussion comparing MLM groups like Amway with
twi-anybody know what thread that was?
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socks
Refiner, I am split on that point when I look at the former president of the Way, V.P. Weirwille. I worked with him enough (about 7 years) on his staff at the Way Nash in Ohio to know he wasn't a 24/7 blathering nut out to deliberately hurt people and make himself wealthy using a bible scam. That's my opinion based on my personal dealings with him. At the same time I have to say there are a lot of things he did that I didn't know anything about at the time they were happening and that only unfolded later, and over time. And other things that I did see develop over many years. In essence, he became untrustworthy to me in some key areas of his life. He also managed over time to disqualify himself from a position of "leadership" or service to the flock you refer to. That didn't stop the Way from existing as it was his own shop and he was in charge, but over time I think I've seen the results.
If you're reading around here, you've seen reference to what he said was a direct revelation from God in 1942 that stated to him that if he would teach it, God would teach him the "Word" (the bible) as it hadn't been known since the "first century". Namely, the way it was originally given and intended to be understood.
In my mind, this constitutes what he called his "ministry". That was the specific means of service that he had to offer to people - this enlightened understanding of the bible that he would gain in an ongoing teaching ministry. That's why The Way was built as a teaching and research ministry - bacause that's what he said he believed he was suppposed to do in response to this calling of his - teach it.
If I take that at face value, that's all well and good. As long as people don't break the law they can pretty much do whatever they want. He teaches, people that want to listen and respond, and so on.
Fast forward from 1942 through to the 60's and we see that VPW formalizes his teaching into a live class and then a filmed class that he's charging money for. The price changes over the years but there's always a charge. So now, if you want the teaching that God said he would give VPW if he would teach it you have to pay for it. You have to buy it.
A real conflict with the charging for the teaching is that what VPW said he had to teach was from God. Then he turns around and sells it. It's not his to sell. This information that is only known by VPW, that's said to be essential to even have a basic relationship with God, that constitutes a revolution in religious thinking that hasn't been seen for 2,000 years, that leaves everyone else in the idolatrous dust of darkness...you have to buy for money?
VPW may have prayed every night before he went to bed, "God you know I'm just doing all of this because I want people to really get your Word" but it still doesn't make it right in my mind. Time and again people were refused the teaching of PFAL if they didn't pay the money. You could buy the books and attend a fellowship, but ultimately you had to pony up, pay and attend the Power for Abundant Living class to really get the whole thing.
In my mind, something got seriously bent in VPW's brain to come up with that approach. He did say that when he "gave it away", nobody listened. When he started charging for it, people responded.
Which makes me wonder how much more successful Jesus would have been if He'd thought to ask for donations of bread and fish instead of just giving food away willy nilly to his hungry followers.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Or, as Ray Stevens put it, "Would Jesus Wear A Rolex On His Television Show"?
:D-->
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Refiner
Well as I understand it Amway doesn t make its money selling cleaning fluid of washing powder. Amway makes its mnoney selling motivational tapes and seminars to the suckers who have bought the dream of becoming a "Double Diamond", super salesperson/ motivator of others.
Most of the Amwayites I met were poor desperate sods putting in hours and hours getting nowhere and trying to get their minds right enough so they could successfully sell the idea to others and thus climb another rung up the old pyramid.
The JWitnesses never made any money from their "bookselling concern" (Which is what it ultimately was)selling books to the public. They got their money from compulsory monthly quotas of books and magazines flogged to the flock.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Twi is both a religious organization and a multi level marketing scheme. These two entities are are not, either one or the other, but consistantly work hand in hand. They compliment each other...check out Benny Hinn's money making scam, or any of the other TV con artists. They all have ways of raking in money based upon the "God will bless you if you give me your money" scheme. This has been going on for centuries.
Whether or not they are sincere about their particular form of mythology , can be determined by their adherence/ or not...to the actual doctrines and dogmas they espouse. I would suggest that the people at the "bottom" are probably the most sincere about their belief system, while the top dogs are least sincere...Afterall, it's the rank and file that finance the lush life styles of the leadership...you know, the "greatest servants"...look for the contridictions and follow the money.
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Raf
When I was in, it was my understanding that JW publications were dirt cheap (I'm talking cost, not content). But even at these real bargain prices, they were a lot cheaper to produce. The profit margin was astronomical.
I forgot where I read that: I THINK it was in the book "Witnesses of Jehovah," which I have long since lost.
Oh, and my memory concurs with Refiner's: The money isn't made by selling the products to the public, but selling them to the followers who MAY accept payment for them when they give them to others, but often do not.
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ex10
To add to what socks said, VPW's "product" ie his "teaching ministry" had a built in expiration date, unlike religions.
The organization was doomed to fail, in my not-so-humble opinion, upon his death. The whole organization was built on the "revelation" and "research and teachings" of one man. Over time, even before his death, the "product" was found to be faulty, yet because it was all committed to videos, tapes, books, classes, ad infinitum, the "product" couldn't really ever become "new and improved."
When VP's successor tried to introduce the "new and improved" version of the product, disaster ensued, as we all have witnessed.
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excathedra
what was the expiration date sis ex ?
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ex10
The day he died.
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excathedra
got it, thanks dear
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah...I like that..."built in expiration date", ain't that the truth! When one considers that veepee was the mog, and Christ was absent...it only stands to reason that when veepee finally cashed in his chips, the whole reality of wayworld went kittywompis. The head of the body was no longer alive...what a prediciment! "Veepee, my servant is DEAD, go now, etc. etc. etc." Joshua Martindumb snatched up the mantle and led us all to the promised land of sexual perversions...The expiration date was past...the product tainted...Veepee thought he was Paul and lcm was Timothy. Actually Veepee was P.T. Barnum and lcm was Moe Howard.
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ex10
Yeah, unc hairy, and part of the whole marketing scheme of the "product" ie ("knowing the Word as it hasn't been known since the 1st century, via VP's 'ministry' ") was dependent on the failure of "organized religion" to deliver. No wonder there was, and is to this day, such animosity towards established Christianity. The whole selling point was that VP had some kind of great "secret" the rest rest of the Christian world has somehow missed for 2,000 years.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it seems that TWI was simply a multi-level marketing scheme.
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WordWolf
MLM? We discussed MLM's here...
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