Is there a trick to using these links? I get a little box in the upper left hand corner with a few shapes, but no text whatsoever. I tried all three and got the same non-result.
Because of the size of the files due to how many pages, I converted the file to PDF format which cut the file size to 1/3 of what it was for those with dial up connections.
You will need the free adobe reader to view the files
I could barely stomach that sappy homespun parable - where'd they come up with that cr@p? Yucko!!
And then they go right into a teaching. Back in my way daze, I would have devoured it. I barely even skimmed it, especially because it kept referring to docvic(praise be his name).
Okay, what do I have to do to view the documents? I tried opening them using the link and get and error message. I saved them to my computer and still get error messages say the reader can't decrypt the document.
Pat -- good to know you got the stuff I sent you. Was happy to provide it.
Am also glad to see it is scanned, and out there for all to see. Those things seemed to be "done in a corner" (unlike Acts 26:26) -- and it is good that these notes finally see the light of day.
I'm up to page 21 and I need an Alka Seltzer. Endless attempts to find "deep hidden meanings" in the ramblings of a country huckster. If the guy was so great and there was so much for those who chose to search it, why did he have to plagiarize so much?
I read this long ago when it was being circulated. They had no room to accuse the BOT because they were far from perfect themselves. Amazing how some of these top honchos were so easily persuaded one way or the other, depending on who ever had the best spin or the most power at the time.
They just believed Scary Geery the master manipulator. Notice the phrase repeated frequently: "We have been told...." (that you guys suck), "We have been told" ..... (that you BOT are off the word and have turned away from the true God), "We have been told".... (that you have not changed, dammit.) And your humble pie attitude backfired on you.
IMHO, and in the opinion at the time of lots of everyday rank and file Corps, we thought they were ALL nuts as they bickered and power struggled using the bible as their weapon of mass destruction.
Want to see some examples? Read carefully the clergy meetings notes. They remind me of the rantings of a paranoid lunatic. That is a man who needed therapy and probably still does in my opinion. And please note how he defends his firing of John S. who wrote an awesome paper on Adultery from a biblical perspective. Note we were not supposed to have even read it or owned a copy. Why? Some of us know why. It appears CG knew not to open that can of worms or it might make his idol look stained and tarnished.
Thinking back on it, none had any worldly experience running any kind of organization or corporation. Only their fantasy ministry bubble all those years.
Frankly, I am glad it happened and I firmly believe that God himself had something to do with it. Thank God that bad trip ended.
A long time ago, John Lynn, like most of us, backed VPW and TWI. The thing I liked about JAL is the fact he was one of the first in a major way to confront VPW's behavior as well as LCM's behavior in a public way. I spoke to John Schoenheit and John Lynn in the late 80's and they spared no criticism of the way things were going. It took me until 1992 to leave TWI and even more time before I decided to believe LCM was doing what he was doing, and even a longer time before I began to suspect something was even wrong with the PFAL or VPW teachings. I remember, specifically, on my website, giving a tribute to VPW in 2001, nine years after leaving. Then as recently as a year ago, discovered what I considered grave errors and for the first time, saw the plagiarism, even though it was out there all the time.
I don't bash the guy, but I sure don't offer tributes any more and in fact argue his doctrine directly on line. I also now commit the unpardonable acts of occasionally disputing EW Bullinger and George Lamsa. The people of the TWI of old would have a fit and think I was seed of the serpent, or something like that.
I don't know why it took so many years to let go...to turn around...to get my sight back. The funny thing was, I went into some of the research to prove VPW was right and came out flabbergasted. Worse, a lot of GS people had been saying it for years. I don't know why I didn't hear it. I must have been deaf as well as blind.
I wish I would have seen this back in 1987 so that much of the confusion I experienced caused by unanswered questions could have been avoided or at least better understood.
quote:The thing I liked about JAL is the fact he was one of the first in a major way to confront VPW's behavior as well as LCM's behavior in a public way.
I really don't get that from the Feb. 1987 letter by JAL & gang. For instance, where in that letter does it talk about VPW and LCM committing adultery? All we get are statements like:
quote:We have been told that since April, 1986, the Board of Trustees of The Way Internatinoal has repeatedly been confronted before witnesses concerning spiritual corruption, evil intents and practices. ...
Ok, so what does that mean? To me, this is mega-vagueness, and nothing more than being Miserable Comforters, just like LCM said.
Let's just talk about how the Trustees are blowing it, and let's reprove them with bible concepts from Wierwille; without getting specific.
I had read the Lynn letter before, and I just read parts of the clergy meeting. One thing that strikes me in all this is the funny Wayspeak involved. It is designed to get people to agree with them and align with them, without saying a single thing.
For example, Chris reports, "Things are wronger [sic] than ever before. The situation is quite hostile." Wow, it must really be bad, thinks the believer. WHAT is bad? What did they do that was hostile?
"...an initial flurry of random activity among the believers which was not based on logical or Biblical evaluation." What did they DO? write letters? make phone calls? talk to their Twigs? Read us one, please. How was what they did illogical or unbiblical? We aren't told what actually happened, but we are supposed to be righteously indignant against them.
"[The Corps] forsook their Biblical responsibility and opened the doors for the adversary who has been very successful in enlisting Corps as his agents." Bad Corps, bad! Go to your room. We shouldn't trust you, you are the agents of the adversary.
BUT WHAT DID THEY DO???
This same talk is in the POP, and JAL's letter. (Yeah, the parable is pretty silly.) Nobody had the guts to say what actually was going on. It all sounded so spiritual, to talk about it in black-and-white, us-against-the-adversary terms. But if they had dared to discuss the FACTS of the goings on, we would all have been able to discern right and wrong in the situation.
Sheesh, Wierwille was recruiting women for sex. CHRIS recruited women for him. Wierwille taught (in CFS) that the Bible does not address sex outside of marriage. Schoenheit showed verse after verse that says adultery is wrong, and fornication is wrong. His paper never names Wierwille, yet Chris says that it did.
If the facts had been put out on the table for all to see, Geer would have been laughed out of town, along with the BOT.
They learned from the best on how to talk for a long time and say nothing. Kind of like politicians who say they are for better education. And who is for WORSE education?
Shaz, I think you nailed it. Would any of the attendees believe they are in favor of NOT "doing the Word?" Duh! He did a great job of defining his opponents views for them. Politics 101.
I realize we don't see JAL and JS talking about a lot of things being done by VPW in his letter, but I am speaking about afterward when they told anyone that would hear about VPW's affairs and anything else they were doing to believers. They didn't do it behind the BOT's backs, either, according to LCM in his Galatians Tapes meetings at TWI in 1989. I quote, "Most of the people that said things about me went behind my back. John Lynn would say it right to my face."
Was there anybody else there at that Galatians Tapes weekend in 1989 that remembers Craigger saying that? It is still very fresh in my memory.
Ok, so what does that mean? To me, this is mega-vagueness, and nothing more than being Miserable Comforters, just like LCM said.
Oldies -- the "mega-vagueness" you speak of is (perhaps) there, in the 37 page letter. However the "vagueness" of any sort (mega, or micro), encounters a head on collision with a brick wall called "reality" -- that is most eminantly dicussed, chewed over, and spit out on the Overview Tapes done by JAL.
Guess you never heard those, eh??? Well -- I have, and it is 3 hours worth of tesimony/history/ and documentation (from many sources) of the horrors that went on. Listen to those tapes (btw -- they are old news now), and perhaps you'll change your tune, though I doubt it.
This stuff really happened. Don't be an ostrich hiding your head in the sand refusing to see things as they are.
I heard that Geer kept a loaded gun during those meetings also, John. And everytime I think about that, I'm completely astounded by the implications of it. I mean, REALLY!---How paranoid, how psychotic, how completely sick do you have to be to feel justified in threatening your supposed "brothers and sisters in Christ" with a loaded weapon just because you don't see eye to eye on how things should be done?! To me, this account really drives home to me how twisted the major players in this tragic farce must have been. That I was even periferally involved (for twenty years!) in this madness is my greatest source of sadness... :(-->
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bowtwi
Pat,
Is there a trick to using these links? I get a little box in the upper left hand corner with a few shapes, but no text whatsoever. I tried all three and got the same non-result.
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pjroberge
Bowtie,
Because of the size of the files due to how many pages, I converted the file to PDF format which cut the file size to 1/3 of what it was for those with dial up connections.
You will need the free adobe reader to view the files
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Steve!
Pat, I'm sure that was a lot of work.
But ick!!!
I could barely stomach that sappy homespun parable - where'd they come up with that cr@p? Yucko!!
And then they go right into a teaching. Back in my way daze, I would have devoured it. I barely even skimmed it, especially because it kept referring to docvic(praise be his name).
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Shellon
hmmm
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jackmm
Okay, what do I have to do to view the documents? I tried opening them using the link and get and error message. I saved them to my computer and still get error messages say the reader can't decrypt the document.
Jack
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Steve!
You have to download Adobe Acrobat Reader 6.
Go here
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jackmm
Worked like a champ,
Thanks
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dmiller
Pat -- good to know you got the stuff I sent you. Was happy to provide it.
Am also glad to see it is scanned, and out there for all to see. Those things seemed to be "done in a corner" (unlike Acts 26:26) -- and it is good that these notes finally see the light of day.
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JustThinking
I'm up to page 21 and I need an Alka Seltzer. Endless attempts to find "deep hidden meanings" in the ramblings of a country huckster. If the guy was so great and there was so much for those who chose to search it, why did he have to plagiarize so much?
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igotout
I read this long ago when it was being circulated. They had no room to accuse the BOT because they were far from perfect themselves. Amazing how some of these top honchos were so easily persuaded one way or the other, depending on who ever had the best spin or the most power at the time.
They just believed Scary Geery the master manipulator. Notice the phrase repeated frequently: "We have been told...." (that you guys suck), "We have been told" ..... (that you BOT are off the word and have turned away from the true God), "We have been told".... (that you have not changed, dammit.) And your humble pie attitude backfired on you.
IMHO, and in the opinion at the time of lots of everyday rank and file Corps, we thought they were ALL nuts as they bickered and power struggled using the bible as their weapon of mass destruction.
Want to see some examples? Read carefully the clergy meetings notes. They remind me of the rantings of a paranoid lunatic. That is a man who needed therapy and probably still does in my opinion. And please note how he defends his firing of John S. who wrote an awesome paper on Adultery from a biblical perspective. Note we were not supposed to have even read it or owned a copy. Why? Some of us know why. It appears CG knew not to open that can of worms or it might make his idol look stained and tarnished.
Thinking back on it, none had any worldly experience running any kind of organization or corporation. Only their fantasy ministry bubble all those years.
Frankly, I am glad it happened and I firmly believe that God himself had something to do with it. Thank God that bad trip ended.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Such drama!...these delusional, egotistical, morons actually believed that the future of the entire human race depended on them...
-->
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excathedra
UH, i'm sure some of them still do....
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Eagle
A long time ago, John Lynn, like most of us, backed VPW and TWI. The thing I liked about JAL is the fact he was one of the first in a major way to confront VPW's behavior as well as LCM's behavior in a public way. I spoke to John Schoenheit and John Lynn in the late 80's and they spared no criticism of the way things were going. It took me until 1992 to leave TWI and even more time before I decided to believe LCM was doing what he was doing, and even a longer time before I began to suspect something was even wrong with the PFAL or VPW teachings. I remember, specifically, on my website, giving a tribute to VPW in 2001, nine years after leaving. Then as recently as a year ago, discovered what I considered grave errors and for the first time, saw the plagiarism, even though it was out there all the time.
I don't bash the guy, but I sure don't offer tributes any more and in fact argue his doctrine directly on line. I also now commit the unpardonable acts of occasionally disputing EW Bullinger and George Lamsa. The people of the TWI of old would have a fit and think I was seed of the serpent, or something like that.
I don't know why it took so many years to let go...to turn around...to get my sight back. The funny thing was, I went into some of the research to prove VPW was right and came out flabbergasted. Worse, a lot of GS people had been saying it for years. I don't know why I didn't hear it. I must have been deaf as well as blind.
God Bless everyone here.
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pjroberge
Dear Dmiller,
Thanks for sending in the documents. I am sure a lot of people are enjoying? reading the tome. Pat
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Dartanian3m
Thanks for posting this pjroberge
I wish I would have seen this back in 1987 so that much of the confusion I experienced caused by unanswered questions could have been avoided or at least better understood.
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oldiesman
Let's just talk about how the Trustees are blowing it, and let's reprove them with bible concepts from Wierwille; without getting specific.
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shazdancer
I had read the Lynn letter before, and I just read parts of the clergy meeting. One thing that strikes me in all this is the funny Wayspeak involved. It is designed to get people to agree with them and align with them, without saying a single thing.
For example, Chris reports, "Things are wronger [sic] than ever before. The situation is quite hostile." Wow, it must really be bad, thinks the believer. WHAT is bad? What did they do that was hostile?
"...an initial flurry of random activity among the believers which was not based on logical or Biblical evaluation." What did they DO? write letters? make phone calls? talk to their Twigs? Read us one, please. How was what they did illogical or unbiblical? We aren't told what actually happened, but we are supposed to be righteously indignant against them.
"[The Corps] forsook their Biblical responsibility and opened the doors for the adversary who has been very successful in enlisting Corps as his agents." Bad Corps, bad! Go to your room. We shouldn't trust you, you are the agents of the adversary.
BUT WHAT DID THEY DO???
This same talk is in the POP, and JAL's letter. (Yeah, the parable is pretty silly.) Nobody had the guts to say what actually was going on. It all sounded so spiritual, to talk about it in black-and-white, us-against-the-adversary terms. But if they had dared to discuss the FACTS of the goings on, we would all have been able to discern right and wrong in the situation.
Sheesh, Wierwille was recruiting women for sex. CHRIS recruited women for him. Wierwille taught (in CFS) that the Bible does not address sex outside of marriage. Schoenheit showed verse after verse that says adultery is wrong, and fornication is wrong. His paper never names Wierwille, yet Chris says that it did.
If the facts had been put out on the table for all to see, Geer would have been laughed out of town, along with the BOT.
Regards,
Shaz
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shazdancer
Absolutely my point, oldies. How could anybody align themselves with anybody, if they didn't even know what anybody DID?
Regards,
Shaz
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JustThinking
They learned from the best on how to talk for a long time and say nothing. Kind of like politicians who say they are for better education. And who is for WORSE education?
Shaz, I think you nailed it. Would any of the attendees believe they are in favor of NOT "doing the Word?" Duh! He did a great job of defining his opponents views for them. Politics 101.
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JustThinking
Ok, I DO see profit in these now! They would make a great college drinking game:
1. One shot every time the word "insane" is used.
2. Two shots when "asleep" is used.
3. Three shots when anything even vaguely specific is said. (Sadly, no one wins this one)
4. One shot each time two or more trustees are mentioned in the same sentence.
Etc.
It probably would have made these meetings more fun or at least bearable. :-)
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igotout
It has been said that CG also carried a loaded gun at these meetings. I for one believe that is true. Others know more.
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Eagle
I realize we don't see JAL and JS talking about a lot of things being done by VPW in his letter, but I am speaking about afterward when they told anyone that would hear about VPW's affairs and anything else they were doing to believers. They didn't do it behind the BOT's backs, either, according to LCM in his Galatians Tapes meetings at TWI in 1989. I quote, "Most of the people that said things about me went behind my back. John Lynn would say it right to my face."
Was there anybody else there at that Galatians Tapes weekend in 1989 that remembers Craigger saying that? It is still very fresh in my memory.
Edited by EagleLink to comment
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dmiller
Oldies -- the "mega-vagueness" you speak of is (perhaps) there, in the 37 page letter. However the "vagueness" of any sort (mega, or micro), encounters a head on collision with a brick wall called "reality" -- that is most eminantly dicussed, chewed over, and spit out on the Overview Tapes done by JAL.
Guess you never heard those, eh??? Well -- I have, and it is 3 hours worth of tesimony/history/ and documentation (from many sources) of the horrors that went on. Listen to those tapes (btw -- they are old news now), and perhaps you'll change your tune, though I doubt it.
This stuff really happened. Don't be an ostrich hiding your head in the sand refusing to see things as they are.
Bless.
:)-->
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Cherished Child
I heard that Geer kept a loaded gun during those meetings also, John. And everytime I think about that, I'm completely astounded by the implications of it. I mean, REALLY!---How paranoid, how psychotic, how completely sick do you have to be to feel justified in threatening your supposed "brothers and sisters in Christ" with a loaded weapon just because you don't see eye to eye on how things should be done?! To me, this account really drives home to me how twisted the major players in this tragic farce must have been. That I was even periferally involved (for twenty years!) in this madness is my greatest source of sadness...
:(-->
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