"It had become so spiteful and mean that it alarmed the leadership and they backed off the threats and realized their browbeating had gone too far."
Did they actually say anything publicly about this? Not questioning your accuracy but wondering if there were any apologies, mea culpas, etc. Anything to say "hey, were were too hard on you guys. We need to lighten up", etc.
No, they never came out and apologized. I was there first hand for all this stuff. I know when the 8th went, and all the corps at HQ were wondering who'd fail (I was on staff there that year), and, in typical usual, almost black humor, started joking, the leadership did tell everyone to knock it off.
They did lighten up though. It later became with the 12th, go out, have fun, witness, get a class together, but the threats were taken out of it.
Us 7th really did get browbeaten by everyone from LCM, VP to VF, who they brought in specially. After the fiasco was over, many just hung in until graduation. There were a lot of po'ed corps. I was friends with one person from South America who was very well known and was a trustee for a bit, he was totally disillusioned with TWI pretty much after that.
We hosted light bearers one year in the late 80s...my husband being graduated corpes was pleased to be able to help these guys with anything within his means...having memories of the pressures from his own light bearers experience...
The whole experience ended up being a colossal dissapointment...and left us seriously concerned about the direction the corpes and ministry had taken....
These guys were so standoffish....wanted zero participation with any of the local believers.....our town ended up feeling like we were nothing more than a means to an end .... used .....a place to crash a meal to grab....a fellowship to drag new folks to..a person to milk for a contact.
We felt their patent disaproval over several things...but never moreso than when they cleaned my husbands desk (thus completely disrupting his business and order that he kept his accounts in) feeling that obviously we would be much better off without the spiritual distraction of a cluttered desk lol...my poor husband was nearly apoplectic...
We wanted to bless them...attempted to treat them with the respect of visiting dignitaries believing the enormous value of what they were doing on the spiritual battle field...shoot it didn`t feel like anything we did measured up.....they didn`t appear to apreciate anything that was done for them...just accepted it as their due...basically they struck us as a pretty snobbish self centered bunch....
At that it was more impressive than the group that his way home hosted the year before we were married...sheeshe he said that one of the women attempted to sneak repeatedly into his bed after all were asleep...he finally had to get quite rude to stop her attentions.
I know that most of you guys weren`t this way....but we felt at the time that it was indicative of the decline of the calibur of the training being offered and spirituality of the corpes leadership.
If there were any integrity at all, 90% of the bearlighters would not have been allowed to continue, because they were told "Get a class together or get out".
When you do that kind of thing with a child, the child learns that you don't mean what you say, and learns to be disingenuous. When the in-resident corps saw the lack of integrity, that should have sent up a red flag.
I just had to jump in here and and say, that your friend from South America (as well as his girlfriend) was a Lightbearer at my house the second time around. They did "get a class together" that us Wows had already formed, more or less, and we did all we could to help them. Too bad they weren't around to help "run the class." It got interesting. :)-->
Ex10th, I bet it did get interesting! He's a wonderful man, with a great heart for God, that was the only time I really saw him very down on TWI. I don't think he voiced it to too many people though. We had always kind of "clicked" and would go off on our own and have "deep" discussions :)-->
That was the other thing, they send us out, get a class together, then the new people were left with people they didn't know to take it.
I think a lot of people helped out the Lightbearers by giving them people they already had to sign up. Trust me, it was appreciated!
I agree that a lot of areas had already done the groundwork for the lightbearers. I went lightbearer and did not get a class together, but regardless we had some great incedents of deliverance. So later after we graduated, when they decided to send lightbearers to our area, I made a lot of preparations so that their experience would be different.
Because of this, they were to our area like a shot in the arm. (We had been genuinely trying to help people. We were not driven by numbers, we just were trying to help.) So before the lightbearers came, I asked everyone to get together lists of friends, realitives and co-workers who they had begun to witness to and had that ready for the lightbearers when they came. Each year we did this, we had a list of about 70 contacts ready for them when they hit town. Our lightberers always got a class together and it was an enjoyable and exciting experience for both them and us.
On the other hand, I also agree with Hope regarding after lcm and twi went sour. We did not witness because we were embarrased about lcm's behaviour and where the ministry was going. Our twig area ran at least 4 PFAL classes a year for 4 years straight without WOWs until everything went South. Then we didn't do zip.
I also want to speak about the constant push for everyone to witness. We did not do that in our area. Instead, we encouraged the few people who were especially good at it and then backed them up. We had another bunch who were especially good at undershepherding, so we just let the good witnessers introduce the interested people to the undershepherders and then the witnessers went on to find someone else. It was a lot of fun, no pressure and a lot of people got born again and delivered. However, when the push from hq occurred to get everyone to become a clone, that failed miserably.
Research Geek, that was incredibly helpful what you did for the other lightbearers.
Also, excellent strategy having the good witnessers and the pastor type people undershephard. You guys are great people too, I'm sure that had something to do with it...
Rascal... you speak of the light-bearers being distant from the locals in the late 80s. I can tell you first hand during that time-frame we were specifically instructed to keep the locals out of it. Lightbearers was for WC, and everybody else should just be blessed to host us, etc. I definitely felt very awkward staying for two weeks at someone’s home and barely speaking to them the whole time!! I think this was the same time period where the WOWs were told to stay separate from the locals, too. What was that Greek word that meant like-minded, but separate? pros?
I would have loved them to come witnessing with us, and to have their input into things. Who else would know the area better? I kept thinking that it would be fun and help energize them so that when we left there would be a lingering effect to bless the area.
JustThinking... I don’t know how far away then would send the corps in the earlier years, but my second time out, we hitch-hiked, so they limited it to a one-day or less hitch (they would figure twice the driving time).
Witnessing in general was always a burden during my time in TWI. One of the best teachings I ever heard was right before my first time out lite-bares, and D*nn!* F*g!t taught about just going about your life's activities with the love of God shining through, looking to include people in what you were doing because you wanted to help them, would make you a natural magnet. But the people I went out with were very legalistic and took all the fun out it. Since we had to do things together, and I always got out-voted on what activity was chosen, I was so out of my element most of the time I didn't have a clue how to approach people.
And door-to-door!! I don't like people knocking on my door trying to sell me something! In the 90's we were forced by the RCs to do door-to-door once a week in our own neighborhoods. We had to follow twi's current FORMAT for witnessing and I knew we sounded like the cult-members we were. I was so embarrassed when I would run into these same people later. It was clear that twi witnessed to GET something from people, not to GIVE. Real turn-off!!
I went three times, 1st time my first year in the spring of 83 to Lincoln NE. We didn't get a class together...we were one person short so we were deemed "worthy" to stay in the corps. We had a blast, but the pressure of having to get a class together or be dismissed from the corps was always a heavy weight to bear.
We were sent out for another week a month later to Edmond OK.....okay, I WILL NEVER LIVE IN Oklahoma!!!! We were with an interim corps gal who was great, but really, I should have grown up that week when I woke up in the middle of the night to figure out that the elder corps lightbearers coordinator was f**king my 13th corps sister right next to me in bed. When I got back to Emporia ... little puritan me reported it to the Corps Coordinators, the elder corps guy had to apologize to me and the whole thing was neatly put away.
The third time was my last year, I went to Arkansas....okay.....I WILL NEVER LIVE IN ARKANSAS. First of all...it was during Easter week, and we had to drive to another county to buy communion wine -->
I think this week was my first clue on how seriously inept and spiritually unprepared we were. I was sitting in a park witnessing to a woman when she just blurted out that she had just been released from a juvenile prison for murdering her mother. The girl I was with was just about to give her the telephone and address of where we were staying, when I dropped the subject and moved on.
Maybe we could have really helped that gal....I don't know, but I was sooooo uncomfortable about giving her the name and address of unsuspecting folks that I just rolled up the sidewalk and went home.
Gosh......it amazes me....so young, so unprepared, so spiritually ill prepared....but so COCKY AND OVER CONFIDENT we were.
you said, "When was that, may I ask? Reason I ask is that I got involved at Indy back in the '70s. My lightbearers time was in Durant, OK (in 1978 as noted aboce).
I was lightbearer in 1992 in Indy.
Funny, we got a class together with seven registered but only one or two people we witnessed to were in the class. Being at Indiana Campus, we were not able to follow up on people, so I don't know why they didn't make it to class. The class had seven for the last session, but only one of two from our efforts. Humm
Well Tom, as they say, "you can lead a horse to water..." That means you need to address the horse's front quarters, and you apparently got it backwards. Did you use a carrot or a stick?
...lead a horse to water ... hmmmmm, thanks for the clarification, Satori. Much clearer to me now. I was attempting to lead 2 horses' asses. But don't fault me too much for this, as BOTH ENDS of BOTH BEASTS looked the same to me. Kinda like when I was born, the doctor looked at my *** and looked at my face and announced, "TWINS!!!!!".
And I used neither a stick nor a carrot. I used a very large cucumber grown at our own organic farm in Rome City. Keepin' it in the family, so to speak...
Actually, at that time in Gunnison and before the death of our fodder in the turd, I knew little of what has been exposed since. So my artilary back then was sparse and not openly supported by the masses. So the 2 jackasses of this our day and time probably laughed it off.
Looking back, I would like to have held forth something better left unsaid to these wunnerful clowns...
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JustThinking
Sunesis quote:
"It had become so spiteful and mean that it alarmed the leadership and they backed off the threats and realized their browbeating had gone too far."
Did they actually say anything publicly about this? Not questioning your accuracy but wondering if there were any apologies, mea culpas, etc. Anything to say "hey, were were too hard on you guys. We need to lighten up", etc.
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Sunesis
No, they never came out and apologized. I was there first hand for all this stuff. I know when the 8th went, and all the corps at HQ were wondering who'd fail (I was on staff there that year), and, in typical usual, almost black humor, started joking, the leadership did tell everyone to knock it off.
They did lighten up though. It later became with the 12th, go out, have fun, witness, get a class together, but the threats were taken out of it.
Us 7th really did get browbeaten by everyone from LCM, VP to VF, who they brought in specially. After the fiasco was over, many just hung in until graduation. There were a lot of po'ed corps. I was friends with one person from South America who was very well known and was a trustee for a bit, he was totally disillusioned with TWI pretty much after that.
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rascal
We hosted light bearers one year in the late 80s...my husband being graduated corpes was pleased to be able to help these guys with anything within his means...having memories of the pressures from his own light bearers experience...
The whole experience ended up being a colossal dissapointment...and left us seriously concerned about the direction the corpes and ministry had taken....
These guys were so standoffish....wanted zero participation with any of the local believers.....our town ended up feeling like we were nothing more than a means to an end .... used .....a place to crash a meal to grab....a fellowship to drag new folks to..a person to milk for a contact.
We felt their patent disaproval over several things...but never moreso than when they cleaned my husbands desk (thus completely disrupting his business and order that he kept his accounts in) feeling that obviously we would be much better off without the spiritual distraction of a cluttered desk lol...my poor husband was nearly apoplectic...
We wanted to bless them...attempted to treat them with the respect of visiting dignitaries believing the enormous value of what they were doing on the spiritual battle field...shoot it didn`t feel like anything we did measured up.....they didn`t appear to apreciate anything that was done for them...just accepted it as their due...basically they struck us as a pretty snobbish self centered bunch....
At that it was more impressive than the group that his way home hosted the year before we were married...sheeshe he said that one of the women attempted to sneak repeatedly into his bed after all were asleep...he finally had to get quite rude to stop her attentions.
I know that most of you guys weren`t this way....but we felt at the time that it was indicative of the decline of the calibur of the training being offered and spirituality of the corpes leadership.
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Steve!
Yup, all that mattered were the numbers.
If there were any integrity at all, 90% of the bearlighters would not have been allowed to continue, because they were told "Get a class together or get out".
When you do that kind of thing with a child, the child learns that you don't mean what you say, and learns to be disingenuous. When the in-resident corps saw the lack of integrity, that should have sent up a red flag.
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ex10
Sunesis
I just had to jump in here and and say, that your friend from South America (as well as his girlfriend) was a Lightbearer at my house the second time around. They did "get a class together" that us Wows had already formed, more or less, and we did all we could to help them. Too bad they weren't around to help "run the class." It got interesting.
:)-->
The co-dependecy started there I guess.
:)-->
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ex10
I guess I should add, that upon graduating from the corps, hubby and I were branch coordinators at a place that always got Lightbearers.
We really helped them out.
:D--> Knowing what we did about the whole experience.
That's one thing I can be proud of??? or maybe not....
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WhiteDove
Ha T We got lightbearers so often I was beginning to think we were a off campus dorm for Emporia.
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JustThinking
Were lightbearers sent everywhere or just within a certain distance of campuses? We never saw them in over 15 years in TWI.
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Sunesis
Ex10th, I bet it did get interesting! He's a wonderful man, with a great heart for God, that was the only time I really saw him very down on TWI. I don't think he voiced it to too many people though. We had always kind of "clicked" and would go off on our own and have "deep" discussions
:)-->
That was the other thing, they send us out, get a class together, then the new people were left with people they didn't know to take it.
I think a lot of people helped out the Lightbearers by giving them people they already had to sign up. Trust me, it was appreciated!
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Research Geek
Hi Sunesis,
I agree that a lot of areas had already done the groundwork for the lightbearers. I went lightbearer and did not get a class together, but regardless we had some great incedents of deliverance. So later after we graduated, when they decided to send lightbearers to our area, I made a lot of preparations so that their experience would be different.
Because of this, they were to our area like a shot in the arm. (We had been genuinely trying to help people. We were not driven by numbers, we just were trying to help.) So before the lightbearers came, I asked everyone to get together lists of friends, realitives and co-workers who they had begun to witness to and had that ready for the lightbearers when they came. Each year we did this, we had a list of about 70 contacts ready for them when they hit town. Our lightberers always got a class together and it was an enjoyable and exciting experience for both them and us.
On the other hand, I also agree with Hope regarding after lcm and twi went sour. We did not witness because we were embarrased about lcm's behaviour and where the ministry was going. Our twig area ran at least 4 PFAL classes a year for 4 years straight without WOWs until everything went South. Then we didn't do zip.
I also want to speak about the constant push for everyone to witness. We did not do that in our area. Instead, we encouraged the few people who were especially good at it and then backed them up. We had another bunch who were especially good at undershepherding, so we just let the good witnessers introduce the interested people to the undershepherders and then the witnessers went on to find someone else. It was a lot of fun, no pressure and a lot of people got born again and delivered. However, when the push from hq occurred to get everyone to become a clone, that failed miserably.
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Sunesis
Research Geek, that was incredibly helpful what you did for the other lightbearers.
Also, excellent strategy having the good witnessers and the pastor type people undershephard. You guys are great people too, I'm sure that had something to do with it...
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TheHighWay
Rascal... you speak of the light-bearers being distant from the locals in the late 80s. I can tell you first hand during that time-frame we were specifically instructed to keep the locals out of it. Lightbearers was for WC, and everybody else should just be blessed to host us, etc. I definitely felt very awkward staying for two weeks at someone’s home and barely speaking to them the whole time!! I think this was the same time period where the WOWs were told to stay separate from the locals, too. What was that Greek word that meant like-minded, but separate? pros?
I would have loved them to come witnessing with us, and to have their input into things. Who else would know the area better? I kept thinking that it would be fun and help energize them so that when we left there would be a lingering effect to bless the area.
JustThinking... I don’t know how far away then would send the corps in the earlier years, but my second time out, we hitch-hiked, so they limited it to a one-day or less hitch (they would figure twice the driving time).
Witnessing in general was always a burden during my time in TWI. One of the best teachings I ever heard was right before my first time out lite-bares, and D*nn!* F*g!t taught about just going about your life's activities with the love of God shining through, looking to include people in what you were doing because you wanted to help them, would make you a natural magnet. But the people I went out with were very legalistic and took all the fun out it. Since we had to do things together, and I always got out-voted on what activity was chosen, I was so out of my element most of the time I didn't have a clue how to approach people.
And door-to-door!! I don't like people knocking on my door trying to sell me something! In the 90's we were forced by the RCs to do door-to-door once a week in our own neighborhoods. We had to follow twi's current FORMAT for witnessing and I knew we sounded like the cult-members we were. I was so embarrassed when I would run into these same people later. It was clear that twi witnessed to GET something from people, not to GIVE. Real turn-off!!
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Radar OReilly
LIGHTBEARERS.......EEEEEK!!!!
I went three times, 1st time my first year in the spring of 83 to Lincoln NE. We didn't get a class together...we were one person short so we were deemed "worthy" to stay in the corps. We had a blast, but the pressure of having to get a class together or be dismissed from the corps was always a heavy weight to bear.
We were sent out for another week a month later to Edmond OK.....okay, I WILL NEVER LIVE IN Oklahoma!!!! We were with an interim corps gal who was great, but really, I should have grown up that week when I woke up in the middle of the night to figure out that the elder corps lightbearers coordinator was f**king my 13th corps sister right next to me in bed. When I got back to Emporia ... little puritan me reported it to the Corps Coordinators, the elder corps guy had to apologize to me and the whole thing was neatly put away.
The third time was my last year, I went to Arkansas....okay.....I WILL NEVER LIVE IN ARKANSAS. First of all...it was during Easter week, and we had to drive to another county to buy communion wine
-->
I think this week was my first clue on how seriously inept and spiritually unprepared we were. I was sitting in a park witnessing to a woman when she just blurted out that she had just been released from a juvenile prison for murdering her mother. The girl I was with was just about to give her the telephone and address of where we were staying, when I dropped the subject and moved on.
Maybe we could have really helped that gal....I don't know, but I was sooooo uncomfortable about giving her the name and address of unsuspecting folks that I just rolled up the sidewalk and went home.
Gosh......it amazes me....so young, so unprepared, so spiritually ill prepared....but so COCKY AND OVER CONFIDENT we were.
Radar
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Tumbleweed Kid
Sorry Lifted Up,
I've been swamped at work.
you said, "When was that, may I ask? Reason I ask is that I got involved at Indy back in the '70s. My lightbearers time was in Durant, OK (in 1978 as noted aboce).
I was lightbearer in 1992 in Indy.
Funny, we got a class together with seven registered but only one or two people we witnessed to were in the class. Being at Indiana Campus, we were not able to follow up on people, so I don't know why they didn't make it to class. The class had seven for the last session, but only one of two from our efforts. Humm
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tomtuttle
While in the corps, I tried my best to witness to LCM and TJ (not the dog - the physical being in charge) at Gunnison.
My Godly opinions were not shared or even received with meekness by the aforementioned ...
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satori001
Well Tom, as they say, "you can lead a horse to water..." That means you need to address the horse's front quarters, and you apparently got it backwards. Did you use a carrot or a stick?
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rascal
Tom, Bless your heart for trying....were you treated badly for speaking up?
I cannot imagine bracing the big dogs .....shiver...
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tomtuttle
...lead a horse to water ... hmmmmm, thanks for the clarification, Satori. Much clearer to me now. I was attempting to lead 2 horses' asses. But don't fault me too much for this, as BOTH ENDS of BOTH BEASTS looked the same to me. Kinda like when I was born, the doctor looked at my *** and looked at my face and announced, "TWINS!!!!!".
And I used neither a stick nor a carrot. I used a very large cucumber grown at our own organic farm in Rome City. Keepin' it in the family, so to speak...
Actually, at that time in Gunnison and before the death of our fodder in the turd, I knew little of what has been exposed since. So my artilary back then was sparse and not openly supported by the masses. So the 2 jackasses of this our day and time probably laughed it off.
Looking back, I would like to have held forth something better left unsaid to these wunnerful clowns...
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rascal
AN easy mistake to make to be sure, when one considers the copious amount of manure that was issued from both orfaces on a regular basis.
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MTgal
2 time veteran
1st time to Kansas City from Emporia.
2nd time to Flagstaff, AZ from Gunnison.
Both times an enlightening look into human nature and how people react under pressure (the people that I was sent with).
Produced no class.
Signed no one up.
Left a very short list of contacts for the local fellowships to follow up on.
Story of my whole TWI experience.
Doing what I thought was right and my best and getting reamed and judged for it.
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