Not the way Mike does; but I do believe those principles/teachings that are accurate according to scripture are God Breathed, because they are expounding scripture, which is God Breathed.
I think Mike believes that PFAL is like the Mormon's bible, like another testament of Jesus Christ. I don't quite go that far ...
But, even if Mike believes that, I think it doesn't mean he automatically is engaging in idolatry; no more so than the Mormons automatically engage in idolatry for what they believe. Would you agree?
I think you're making a bigger issue than what exists.
Of course you do :D-->
quote:What happens if some folks already have figured out for themselves that some of Wierwille's teachings are biblically accurate, or at least biblically reasonable?
It really depends on the method, how honest they were with themselves. If they had already honestly done that, then I say "no problem", what I advocate has, for all practical purposes, been done by these hypothetical folks. I know of several people who claim to have done this with Martindale's class, which contains so many errors and contradictions that it's hard to keep up, yet say that they see "no errors". --> To me a skeptic's approach is best. Approach it with a healthy doubt and see if it stands up, rather than look at something assuming that it is correct without checking the evidense; or you end up like Mike, preaching that PFAL is the reissued Word of God for our day and time.
quote:In fact, it would be a sin to throw out truth, because of someone else's sin. :)-->
You know Oldies, your tone and manner of writing are very reasonable, or at least superficially so, but you couldn't resist trotting out the strawman one more time, could you? That is not my position, never has been. Any statements that I may have made that could have led you to see it that way have been explained, clarified and defined:
Wierwille presented himself as "The Teacher"
Most wayfers accepted what Wierwille said as being vaild and true without much in the way of investigation
What little investigation and independent research there was was discouraged and fobbed off with "hold it in abeyance".
Wierwille's documented lying (among other things) calls into question his believability
This in turn should spur people to question what was taught to them and verify
Since the man who put together the whole framework is suspect, the safest thing to do for someone who wants to know the truth is to start from scratch.
This starting from scratch does not necessarily mean rejecting what was taught, but rebuilding.
If anything that Wierwille taught was true, it will be arrived at by independent study
If the integrated system that piffle is allowed rationalization of the grossest carnal sins & abuses then it contains what the Bible calls leaven.
Try all you want to extract the leaven from the lump, but it's too late. The gangrene is already there, lurking odiously, only to contaminate the whole all over again.
That's why I advocate ditching the whole Wierwille oevre and starting with pure clean stuff. It's not borne of irrational bitterness, OM, it's biblically sound (and required) practice.
First, smikeol is worshipping and adoring the messenger way above the message. In general, that is not the case with Bible believers. In smikeol's eyes, docvic (praise be his name) could do no wrong, whatsoever. Second, smikeol does this to magnify himself and to bring adulation to himself. It might not be immediately apparent, but if you read enough of his posts, even superficially, you can see that.
So to answer your question, he does NOT have to be idolatrous to believe that docvic(praise be his name) received revelation from God and wrote it down. he just has to completely ignore all the various testimonies from eyewitnesses to the plagiarism. he has proven his idolatry time and time again when he has contined to defend his idol even when shown that his idol made major errors. he is idolatrous in that he continues to aver that the orange book, piffle, supersedes the Bible, even when shown that the piffle book is way less than perfect. If piffle DID supersede the Bible, it would HAVE to be perfect.
As far as my giving praise to docvic(praise be his name), that's called illustration by exaggeration.
Because the scriptures do not say "all expounded scripture is God-breathed." It says "all scripture."
To hold any thing or any person or their writings or their sayings on that same level or above, is putting them on a throne on which God never designed for them to sit.
And to get back to that "Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater" thing...
Not only is the baby too big to get sucked down the drain, but
You might find that all you tossed out was a bucket of toads...
quote:Because the scriptures do not say "all expounded scripture is God-breathed." It says "all scripture."
To hold any thing or any person or their writings or their sayings on that same level or above, is putting them on a throne on which God never designed for them to sit.
Perhaps you misunderstood, I didn't say all expounded scripture is God Breathed, I said all scripture is God Breathed. But, I do believe that in various teachings and segments, Wierwille expounded scripture, which is God Breathed. Therefore, since all scripture is God Breathed, then what Wierwille expounded, in certain segments, is God Breathed. Same level of truth. It's the spoken word.
I don't think Mike is worshipping Wierwille; just believing what he wrote in PFAL is God Breathed. I think he goes too far, but I think it's like what I suggested before, that believing the words of Paul, or Luke, or John, or Malachi, doesn't mean one is automatically worshipping those men, or engaging in idolatry. Same holds true for believing PFAL is God Breathed. It's a belief. If Mike is truly engaging in idolatry, what other gods are Mike worshipping?
Does believing that Ephesians is God Breathed, mean one is worshipping Paul?
I challenge the idolatry accusation; Mike may be dead wrong ... but being dead wrong doesn't necessarily equate into worshipping other gods.
On throwing everything out, yeah, you can do what a juror's options are, and impeach everything Wierwille says because of his plagiarism and sins, disbelieve everything he says and start over. That's your prerogative, and it appears some have already done that. But for those who do not choose that specific course of getting rid of everything and starting over, doesn't mean they've lost all their marbles, among other things.
If the integrated system that piffle is allowed rationalization of the grossest carnal sins & abuses then it contains what the Bible calls leaven.
Try all you want to extract the leaven from the lump, but it's too late. The gangrene is already there, lurking odiously, only to contaminate the whole all over again.
That's why I advocate ditching the whole Wierwille oevre and starting with pure clean stuff. It's not borne of irrational bitterness, OM, it's biblically sound (and required) practice.
Thank you, stated much more elegantly than I could.
while i was trying to be a smartbutt and sarcastic about going after an 18 year old boy with family problems, this stuff actually breaks my heart to this day. sorry for the derail.
quote:If the integrated system that piffle is allowed rationalization of the grossest carnal sins & abuses then it contains what the Bible calls leaven.
Try all you want to extract the leaven from the lump, but it's too late. The gangrene is already there, lurking odiously, only to contaminate the whole all over again.
That's why I advocate ditching the whole Wierwille oevre and starting with pure clean stuff.
What integrated system? All one can you do is take each principle Wierwille discussed in PFAL, study that principle for yourself, check it out for yourself against what you now believe the bible says, and believe accordingly. What gangrene? Wierwille taught truth. There is no gangrene in truth.
( I will concede that the errors he taught are gangrene and must be cut out. )
OM, you are advocating that one starts with piffle, and compare piffle to the Bible.
Why? What is the compelling reason for anyone to start with piffle? I'm not asking for your personal reasons, you have your reasons and they are valid for you, and you have that right, and more power to you. I'm asking why I, or TheEvan, or Oakspear should start with piffle.
Why not start where the Spirit, God, leads you to start? Why must one compare against piffle?
Steve, if you want to start over, and throw the baby out with the bathwater, go ahead. I prefer to eat the fish, and spit out the bones, like JAL does. There's some quality fish meat in PFAL. (not piffle)!
quote:Steve, if you want to start over, and throw the baby out with the bathwater, go ahead. I prefer to eat the fish, and spit out the bones, like JAL does.
OM, why do you care what JAL does? Thought you implied you weren't in his group??????
Whatever happened to the "power", in pfal? I never saw it. Remember how Veepee would go on about today's Christians being powerless? "...just when they need it the most, it not there!" He talked about how the church was being destroyed for lack of knowledge...Well, just when HE needed it the most, it wasn't there either. Why didn't somebody unleash the healing power that they learned in pfal, and chase that demon cancer right out of him? Why didn't God warn Veepee not to chose lcm?...Like I said, just when he needed it the most, it wasn't there. He was talking out of his a$$...the only power that Veepee ever knew, was the power of your money.
quote:OM, why do you care what JAL does? Thought you implied you weren't in his group??????
Just curious
I'm not in CES; but do order tapes from them from time to time, and get their free newsletter. Never attended one of their meetings. I mentioned about JAL only because he originated the quote "eat the fish, and spit out the bones". I thought it was a pretty decent statement and the author should be mentioned.
quote:Whatever happened to the "power", in pfal? I never saw it. ...
Then I suppose you were one of those who took the class, didn't get anything from it, left, and never returned? That happened to a few folks who I knew. But I was glad they at least had an opportunity to hear God's word. ...
quote:All one can you do is take each principle Wierwille discussed in PFAL, study that principle for yourself, check it out for yourself against what you now believe the bible says, and believe accordingly.
Why should I do that? I got some half truths out of it and now I've moved on.
As I've stated before, 20 yrs. ago I ate a hamburger at a hamburger stand. I was starving and it tasted good and sustained me. Yes, I was better off having the hamburger than having nothing. It gave me sustanance for that time in my life.
Now, I eat a healthier diet with more vitamins and live foods and vegetables. Why would I go back to a diet of fast foods and think that that would sustain me now? I'm older, I've grown, and my body has need of more quality foods. When younger, my body would use just about anything it could get for fuel, including spiritually PFAL. But, "fast-food spirituality" doesn't sustain me now. I need a healthier and more nutrituious diet--one that contains humility, goodness, hope, patience, true love (not just to get something from someone such as if they take "the class"), etc.
So, no, there is no need to revisit a fast food diet to know that it is harmful to me and very lacking in the sustanance needed for me to be spiritually healthy today.
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Catcup
Tell me, OM,
Do you, too, in fact believe that Power For Abundant Living is God-breathed?
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oldiesman
Not the way Mike does; but I do believe those principles/teachings that are accurate according to scripture are God Breathed, because they are expounding scripture, which is God Breathed.
I think Mike believes that PFAL is like the Mormon's bible, like another testament of Jesus Christ. I don't quite go that far ...
But, even if Mike believes that, I think it doesn't mean he automatically is engaging in idolatry; no more so than the Mormons automatically engage in idolatry for what they believe. Would you agree?
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Oakspear
Most wayfers accepted what Wierwille said as being vaild and true without much in the way of investigation
This in turn should spur people to question what was taught to them and verify
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TheEvan
If the integrated system that piffle is allowed rationalization of the grossest carnal sins & abuses then it contains what the Bible calls leaven.
Try all you want to extract the leaven from the lump, but it's too late. The gangrene is already there, lurking odiously, only to contaminate the whole all over again.
That's why I advocate ditching the whole Wierwille oevre and starting with pure clean stuff. It's not borne of irrational bitterness, OM, it's biblically sound (and required) practice.
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Steve!
om, you make some interesting points.
First, smikeol is worshipping and adoring the messenger way above the message. In general, that is not the case with Bible believers. In smikeol's eyes, docvic (praise be his name) could do no wrong, whatsoever. Second, smikeol does this to magnify himself and to bring adulation to himself. It might not be immediately apparent, but if you read enough of his posts, even superficially, you can see that.
So to answer your question, he does NOT have to be idolatrous to believe that docvic(praise be his name) received revelation from God and wrote it down. he just has to completely ignore all the various testimonies from eyewitnesses to the plagiarism. he has proven his idolatry time and time again when he has contined to defend his idol even when shown that his idol made major errors. he is idolatrous in that he continues to aver that the orange book, piffle, supersedes the Bible, even when shown that the piffle book is way less than perfect. If piffle DID supersede the Bible, it would HAVE to be perfect.
As far as my giving praise to docvic(praise be his name), that's called illustration by exaggeration.
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Catcup
Um, yeah, I do.
Because the scriptures do not say "all expounded scripture is God-breathed." It says "all scripture."
To hold any thing or any person or their writings or their sayings on that same level or above, is putting them on a throne on which God never designed for them to sit.
And to get back to that "Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater" thing...
Not only is the baby too big to get sucked down the drain, but
You might find that all you tossed out was a bucket of toads...
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Catcup
"If anything that Wierwille taught was true, it will be arrived at by independent study."
Exactly.
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rascal
mike says that pfal and vps writings replaced the tattered remnants of scripture that were all that was available before 194?
That is not only idolotry, but blasphemy as well.
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Catcup
And possibly insanity?
Ah, but I'm not a DOKTOR!
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oldiesman
Catcup:
Perhaps you misunderstood, I didn't say all expounded scripture is God Breathed, I said all scripture is God Breathed. But, I do believe that in various teachings and segments, Wierwille expounded scripture, which is God Breathed. Therefore, since all scripture is God Breathed, then what Wierwille expounded, in certain segments, is God Breathed. Same level of truth. It's the spoken word.I don't think Mike is worshipping Wierwille; just believing what he wrote in PFAL is God Breathed. I think he goes too far, but I think it's like what I suggested before, that believing the words of Paul, or Luke, or John, or Malachi, doesn't mean one is automatically worshipping those men, or engaging in idolatry. Same holds true for believing PFAL is God Breathed. It's a belief. If Mike is truly engaging in idolatry, what other gods are Mike worshipping?
Does believing that Ephesians is God Breathed, mean one is worshipping Paul?
I challenge the idolatry accusation; Mike may be dead wrong ... but being dead wrong doesn't necessarily equate into worshipping other gods.
On throwing everything out, yeah, you can do what a juror's options are, and impeach everything Wierwille says because of his plagiarism and sins, disbelieve everything he says and start over. That's your prerogative, and it appears some have already done that. But for those who do not choose that specific course of getting rid of everything and starting over, doesn't mean they've lost all their marbles, among other things.
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excathedra
extramarital affairs
i guess some people really believe that was the extent of weewillie's "weaknesses" / "sins"
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Oakspear
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excathedra
while i was trying to be a smartbutt and sarcastic about going after an 18 year old boy with family problems, this stuff actually breaks my heart to this day. sorry for the derail.
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oldiesman
( I will concede that the errors he taught are gangrene and must be cut out. )
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Steve!
OM, you are advocating that one starts with piffle, and compare piffle to the Bible.
Why? What is the compelling reason for anyone to start with piffle? I'm not asking for your personal reasons, you have your reasons and they are valid for you, and you have that right, and more power to you. I'm asking why I, or TheEvan, or Oakspear should start with piffle.
Why not start where the Spirit, God, leads you to start? Why must one compare against piffle?
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oldiesman
Steve, if you want to start over, and throw the baby out with the bathwater, go ahead. I prefer to eat the fish, and spit out the bones, like JAL does. There's some quality fish meat in PFAL. (not piffle)!
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Steve!
OM, you're not thinking outside the square. Let's get on the ball, run that up the flagpole and see who salutes!
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rascal
Oh oh ...I wanna be like John TOO!
Ummm what was this thread about again?
Oh yeah WIERWILLES actions vs his words....LOL Steve ... we have both been sucked off course ....
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waterbuffalo
OM, why do you care what JAL does? Thought you implied you weren't in his group??????
Just curious
:)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Whatever happened to the "power", in pfal? I never saw it. Remember how Veepee would go on about today's Christians being powerless? "...just when they need it the most, it not there!" He talked about how the church was being destroyed for lack of knowledge...Well, just when HE needed it the most, it wasn't there either. Why didn't somebody unleash the healing power that they learned in pfal, and chase that demon cancer right out of him? Why didn't God warn Veepee not to chose lcm?...Like I said, just when he needed it the most, it wasn't there. He was talking out of his a$$...the only power that Veepee ever knew, was the power of your money.
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waterbuffalo
Exactly, Steve!
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oldiesman
Waterbuffalo:
I'm not in CES; but do order tapes from them from time to time, and get their free newsletter. Never attended one of their meetings. I mentioned about JAL only because he originated the quote "eat the fish, and spit out the bones". I thought it was a pretty decent statement and the author should be mentioned.Link to comment
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oldiesman
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waterbuffalo
Why should I do that? I got some half truths out of it and now I've moved on.
As I've stated before, 20 yrs. ago I ate a hamburger at a hamburger stand. I was starving and it tasted good and sustained me. Yes, I was better off having the hamburger than having nothing. It gave me sustanance for that time in my life.
Now, I eat a healthier diet with more vitamins and live foods and vegetables. Why would I go back to a diet of fast foods and think that that would sustain me now? I'm older, I've grown, and my body has need of more quality foods. When younger, my body would use just about anything it could get for fuel, including spiritually PFAL. But, "fast-food spirituality" doesn't sustain me now. I need a healthier and more nutrituious diet--one that contains humility, goodness, hope, patience, true love (not just to get something from someone such as if they take "the class"), etc.
So, no, there is no need to revisit a fast food diet to know that it is harmful to me and very lacking in the sustanance needed for me to be spiritually healthy today.
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