When I first got into TWI in 1972, my witnessing style was what I felt was a spirit-led testimony.
When I saw someone who had a need and they indicated a spiritual hunger, then I told them what God had done for me in my life.
-I got loads of results, because the testimony was regarding what God had done for ME and what I knew He could do for them.
-I enjoyed witnessing.
Then in my apprentice year (74-75), some idiot decided we should go door to door. The results?
-They gave us some lame "questionnaire" that had leading questions in it.
-We had to map out our city and systematically reach each and every person in it with our "pitch."
-I felt like a Jehovah's Witness or a Fuller Brush Salesman.
--It took the fun and spontaneity out of witnessing.
My first year in-residence in 1975, we took public speaking courses that actually used sales techniques to "sell" a product, which was the PFAL class, rather than tell people what God could do for them. Results?
-It took the Spirit of God out of the works and replaced it with sales techniques.
-From then on I hated witnessing. I felt like a glorified salesperson hyping a product.
What put the icing on the cake for me was during one particular Corps Week, Dr. Wierwille "floated" the idea to us of raising the price of the class from $85.00 to something like $200.00. It was a ridiculous jump. There were no "improvements" or additional "services" that came along with the jump in costs... Nothing at all to justify such an increase... with the explanation that the class was "worth it."
That REALLY went over like a lead balloon with me, but enought a$$ki$$ers applauded the "suggestion" by the good (?) doctor (?) that the suggestion was implemented immediately.
It was done for no other reason than outright greed, in my opinion.
TWI took the Spirit of God out of witnessing and replaced it with their cardboard sales techniques for nothing but filthy lucre.
In the “Witnessing and Undershepherding” class Donnie Fugit taught that the goal of all witnessing was PFAL.
I initially rebelled at such a thought, but gradually saw that it was right.
The goal was to bring people to hear exactly what we heard. The methods we could use along the way to that goal included all of what Catcup and pyroberge mentioned about love, testimonials, and spiritual spontaneity. But we were very new to it all then, and could only give a partial picture of the good that God had to offer in the class.
Through the Seventies these things worked pretty well, but the Corps did bring in a mechanical, and business-like element that eventually took over. Then it did indeed suck. I dodged the Corps lead downward as long as I could.
As far as the $200 raise, I thought it was more to filter out people from the class more than anything else. By that time there were some people taking the class for social reasons and not spiritual searching. I do not know why it was lowered back down later.
Yes. And until we master what God put into that class, we cannot accomplish such a ministry of reconciliation.
To accomplish such a ministry we need the right tools. If we only partially mastered the tools, we can only partially reconcile. God made these tools available in the first century and again in the twentieth. It’s the Word.
II Cor. 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
"In my opinion, in the absence of the sales pitch we would have begun to witness Jesus Christ and His power."
That depends on the person. Alot of us are years removed from the way but do not pitch Jesus Christ and His power. Some were more wayfers than Christians. And as wayfers we became high pressure salesmen for a product not for Jesus Christ himself. As a result of the pressure, we witnessed to people who we knew weren't really interested in anything more than doughnuts, kisses and shelter. We considered a class a success by a) the size of the class (number of students) and b) whether or not they spoke in tounges. Not by if anyone was actually saved.
As a result we had a lot of practicing alcoholics and crackheads taking a class they weren't really interested in. And they "all" spoke in tongues. So that's considered a 'great' class.
We were practically on commission!
So, no , some of us wouldn't have ever witnessed to anyone if we weren't in twi. It was something we were taught IN twi.
In the earlier years many people attended many twigs and branch meetings without taking the class. They heard a lot and got helped and THEN took the class. I wass one. My first twig was in Novenber, but my class wasn't until the next April.
Classes were a little more rare then, and the pressure cooker for numbers hadn’t developed. Many people got helped who didn’t even come to twig when grads were sharp in witnessing. Yes, things changed later.
Maybe you can tell me what kind of two-bit battle of wits you're engaging in with pejorative salutations, and plagiarized ones at that.
I spent most of my life outside my present PFAL mindset, so it’s very easy for me to switch gears. I attend weekly poetry meetings in the low rent gay district of town, filled not only with homosexuals, but with the most left-wing radical anarchists you’ve probably ever seen, and I have no trouble being friendly with absolutely everyone there. If there’s anyone stuck in a corrupt mindset it’s YOU! You talk just like the TWI robots, only with a vocabulary overhaul, but with the same attitudes of snickering stuckupedness.
Well, now that we’ve exchanges pleasantries, let’s get down to business.
You asked me:
1) How did the Apostles operate the ministry of reconcilliation without piffle?
2) How did B.G. Leonard operate a ministry of deliverance far beyond VeePee's and was Veepee's teacher without your precious piffle
3) How is your holding piffle as an object of virtual worship by yourself not idolatry?
1) They failed to operate it! Haven’t you seen that the first century church fell? Most of the epistles were reproof and correction, but it didn’t take. Most of the apostles had a hard time accepting the revelations God gave to Paul. Peter had to be rebuked by Paul (by revelation) in front of many people. That means he didn’t pay attention to the private approaches. Peter twice refused to accept the visions and revelation God gave him on the rooftop, and needed a third. Also he nearly screwed up at Cornelius’ house with water baptism. Finally Peter got it right and with his dying last words and said whatever you do, don’t screw up on the epistles of Paul because they were from God, and many DID screw up on them. It was to late, though, and Peter’s ministry failed. Even Paul screwed up and landed in jail, where he had to pretty much finish up his last epistles. Like us, they all started off pretty well, but need the written word to sustain the battle.
2)Gee? I looked it up on Google and couldn’t find any references on BG’s ministry being that successful. Where did you get that?
3)If it is the case that PFAL is revelation from God, then it is idolatry to NOT master it. If it is not revelation from God then my goose is cooked. Place your bet.
The KJV (or any other translation) is a man-made effort to re-construct the original meaning of the scriptures. The KJV is surely man-breathed, so fully embracing it is idolatry. How many KJV embracers have you asked question #3 of?
Some realize that the KJV is not authoritative and has mistakes, so they try to correct it with their own man-breathed efforts. They research it for themselves or they select and trust other scholars to do it for them. Either way, it still all man-breathed end-products that they embrace, so that’s idolatry.
I say from a distance that the safer bet is in PFAL, because it’s only maybe idolatry, while the KJV approach is surely idolatry.
When I close that distance and return to PFAL, my surety increases because the contents speak loud, and magnify the True God’s still small voice.
Now, let see if next time you can come up with something more witty to lambaste me with next time than smikeol, ok? That’s getting pretty old and worn out. And aren’t VeePee and piffle someone else’s work too? Do they know you’re trying to copyright them?
I agree catcup ...I remember early on ...I had great success witnessing to others what God did for me...but eventually, we were pressured into being hawkers of pfal...canned sales pitches...motivational techniques....I hated it...the only folks takin pfal were the one who couldn`t think fast enough on their feet to get away from you...or friends and family members who just didn`t want to hurt your feelings.
Georgio, I remember vividly the bleakness I felt after my first app corpes meeting ...did we learn about serving God better? Did we learn how to become spiritually sharp? Did we learn how to help people? Oh hell no ...we had traveled hours to the limb ....only to be split up and dropped around the city for some door to door....OHBOY!!....I was so depressed on the way home contemplating how I would be nothing more than a high pressure salesman for God for the rest of my life ( I felt just like I did in high school when I had to sell oranges door to door I hated it and was ashamed) ....all success .... all future spirituality would be based on whether or not I could scrounge up a student for the next class...and the class after that and the class after that....it was my first glimpse of the real truth that lay behind twi...
I had the same experience working at a pet store....for 6 months...I sold an amazing number of animals and products...when I was just coming to work because I loved animals and enjoyed sharing that love...but then came new owners with the canned sales pitches ... the numbers each month showing who was top salesmen...the pats on the back...the recognition was focused on the ones who had high sales numbers while scowles and threats were reserved for those who`s numbers didn`t measure up....
Just like in twi we were given a couple of pages to memorise ...a schpeal that manuvered anyone who walked into the store into a corner and they usually ended up with a pet whether they wanted or needed one or not.....
It was a good schpeal too......how else could we sell substandard puppy mill puppies for 600 bucks when you could get one out of the paper or from a reputable breeder for 100? And of course there was the nearly 300 dollars in supplies that you just HAD to have for said pup....
Amazing the similarities as I look back...here we in our naievity ... convinced people that our product was so superior to anything out there so that they invested way more money and time ...we had to make em BELIEVE that our product was better and pressure em into a corner lest they take a brief look around and realise that there was better product without nearly the cost or heartbreak.....
I went from absolute top sales in the region when I was blythly ignorant to the reality of why I was there (ie to make money for the store) to the bottom...I hated it ....I hated whoring for the pet store and I hated whoring for twi.....
When we were all out there witnessing God, studying bible in our fellowships.......it was good...when we witnessed pfal and geared fellowship to running classes and rehashing pfal materials....it was horrible, stale, contrived...
Mike, ...people I sold those cute little puppies to ..... would come back after a visit to the vet with reports of genetic health issues...sickness....etc....n yep I was good enough ... I could convince them that that substandard puppy that they had mortgaged their soul for was STILL the best bang for their buck...and BECAUSE they were already emotionally attatched to the puppy....they bought the schpeal no matter WHAT the mountiing evidence was to the contrary....We would always say...oh just give us the dog and we will gladly refund your money........and then let slip what the fate was for said substandard puppy....nobody ever took us up on it.....
You been scammed buddy...you have bought the schpeal...and are clinging to it in desperation ....knowing that if you examin it just a little more closely...you will find out you have been screwed...
You keep that substandard sickly pup and continue to pour thousands of dollars into it cosseting it ..fiercly believing that the poor malformed, substandard, atrocity to the breed standard is a champion...go ahead, but the rest of us can see what that pup that you so highly esteem is REALLY worth....in SPITE of your protestations.
In the bible I read, the goal of all witnessing was to preach Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead.
The apostles failed to carry out the ministry of reconciliation???? Because they didn't have a class to push????
It seems to me, that they were a grand success. The very fact you KNOW about Jesus Christ was due to HIS impact on this world, not Victor Paul Wierwille's. Credit the apostles for spreading it across the known world at that time. THAT's why you know about Jesus Christ, sir.
There is NOTHING in the revealed Word of God that indicates otherwise, and NOTHING in the revealed Word of God that indicates we should give such idolatrous allegience to man's works that you indicate you do.
It is idolatrous. PFAL is not the goal of all witnessing. Jesus Christ and the resurrection is. That is the pattern throughout the book of Acts and the church epistles.
But I think most everyone here has learned of you, that, to quote your idol:
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
In other words, to debate this issue with a person who is so wrapped up in his idolatry is a complete waste of time and energy.
Mike has fallen to same temptation that is common to most cults _ namely that the first century church fell into apostasy, ignored the teachings of the apostles and were overcome by pagan beliefs.
To them the persecution the early believers suffered was a sign of unbelief, not a fulfillment of prophecy given by the Lord himself.
The fact that we have an understanding of the scriptures and Christ after 2,000 years is a testament to the early church, monks from the Middle Ages and the early translators.
I have a real understanding and abiding appreciation of the scriptures from TWI-1. I first knew about Jesus from the Roman Catholic church, but didn't appreciate anything about his life, and wasn't taught hardly anything about him except he was a vengeful saviour. And all I did was religiously go to church most Sundays, religiously like a robot, but still in the dark to some key truths that, had I been taught all along, would have quenched the need to get involved in another Christian group. I wouldn't have wanted or needed TWI-1 at all, had I been taught those truths all along. So, I'm thankful for the early church, monks from the Middle Ages, the early translators, and Victor Paul Wierwille, his teachers, and other saints from twi, including my own family.
A minor derail, but have you checked out the Brooklyn Tabernacle, I hear their choir and church are awesome.
Haven't checked it out ...
One thing that hasn't been said here that perhaps pertains to the discussion is the fact that twi is/was one of many many Christian denominations that spreads the Word about Jesus Christ. I know mainly of my experiences with it, but it can help today as well for someone who needs to hear all about Jesus Christ and God's plan for salvation. Yeah, you don't need twi, there's always another church around the corner and on television. But on the other hand, let's not limit God to how we think He should work. Twi just might reach out and help someone, even today, and that's not too shabby. We don't always know how God works in peoples lives.
Oldiesman is right. The “Jesus” that the churches promote is a counterfeit. Some, like the RC Jesus, are crude and medieval, some are modern and gentle-like hippie. Even after 30 years of accepting the sentence “Jesus Christ Is Not God” I’ve detected in myself and all other grads a god-like image of Jesus that still remains.
For instance, when I proposed the image of him learning from PFAL it violated nearly every posters’ cherished image of him being all knowing, just like God.
I too am very thankful for the individuals, God’s infiltrators in the devil’s religious system, who sought and found light. I’m thankful for the monks who copied as accurately as they could and preserved the scriptures. I’m thankful for the theologians who broke away from the pack and found truths to deposit back into the culture. I’m thankful for the genuine missionaries who weren’t on a personal power trip and did spread the pieces of the Word that were preserved or re-discovered. I’m thankful for the original apostles who did do a good job at first (like us) under very adverse circumstances (unlike us). AND I’m thankful that God found a tireless, fearless, smart sinner like Dr. Wierwille who was willing to defy tradition after tradition (including the Holy Copyright Law) to put together all these many gallantly prefabricated pieces of Word he received from his predecessors in the order God told him to make PFAL, and to market (yes, market) it around the world.
The more we develop a real spiritual relationship with God’s Christ (not an 5-senses emotional relationship with a pretty boy Caucasian god-hippie foisted on us by the devil) then we will see that the Word, the WHOLE Word was buried and unavailable before 1942. It was lost in the first century and kept down for centuries. Look how it took 1500 years for someone to get around to reading Romans, believing it, and defying traditional authority to distribute it like Luther did.
quote:For instance, when I proposed the image of him learning from PFAL it violated nearly every posters’ cherished image of him being all knowing, just like God.
You are a master all right: a master of misrepresentation. For your information (twit), the objection was not due to the feeling that Jesus is all-knowing, but rather to the feeling that 2000 years of direct connection with God and being seated at His right hand requires a supplemental education to be found in your flawed orange book. That you should think Jesus ever had something to learn from PFAL reveals (as if it needed revealing by this point) the sad depth of your idolatry.
Time is part of the creation, and not a limitation on God.
With God there is no time.
Jesus Christ sat down on the right hand of God 2000 years ago by our reckoning of time.
But we are instructed in II Cor.5:16 to no longer know Christ after the flesh, the 5-senses realm, the natural realm, which includes time.
How Jesus Christ fares in time seated next to the Creator of time I can not fathom very deeply since so much of my knowledge is still 5-senses.
Here’s just ONE possibility to consider: At the Ascension God propelled Jesus through time into the future, to the time of his return. In that scenario Jesus did NOT have the 2000 years of learning you assume.
God and Jesus Christ are face to face. God talks to Christ directly, tells him everything he needs to know.
I mean, you don't even KNOW how ridiculous you sound! That God would need to send Jesus to the future to read PFAL instead of JUST TELLING HIM TO HIS FACE!
quote:I mean, you don't even KNOW how ridiculous you sound! That God would need to send Jesus to the future to read PFAL instead of JUST TELLING HIM TO HIS FACE!
God wouldn't do that cause that would be plagiarism.
We need to get Jesus in that heavenly PFAL class ... Mike will run it, Dr will teach it. Raf you wanna bring the cookies?
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Catcup
When I first got into TWI in 1972, my witnessing style was what I felt was a spirit-led testimony.
When I saw someone who had a need and they indicated a spiritual hunger, then I told them what God had done for me in my life.
-I got loads of results, because the testimony was regarding what God had done for ME and what I knew He could do for them.
-I enjoyed witnessing.
Then in my apprentice year (74-75), some idiot decided we should go door to door. The results?
-They gave us some lame "questionnaire" that had leading questions in it.
-We had to map out our city and systematically reach each and every person in it with our "pitch."
-I felt like a Jehovah's Witness or a Fuller Brush Salesman.
--It took the fun and spontaneity out of witnessing.
My first year in-residence in 1975, we took public speaking courses that actually used sales techniques to "sell" a product, which was the PFAL class, rather than tell people what God could do for them. Results?
-It took the Spirit of God out of the works and replaced it with sales techniques.
-From then on I hated witnessing. I felt like a glorified salesperson hyping a product.
What put the icing on the cake for me was during one particular Corps Week, Dr. Wierwille "floated" the idea to us of raising the price of the class from $85.00 to something like $200.00. It was a ridiculous jump. There were no "improvements" or additional "services" that came along with the jump in costs... Nothing at all to justify such an increase... with the explanation that the class was "worth it."
That REALLY went over like a lead balloon with me, but enought a$$ki$$ers applauded the "suggestion" by the good (?) doctor (?) that the suggestion was implemented immediately.
It was done for no other reason than outright greed, in my opinion.
TWI took the Spirit of God out of witnessing and replaced it with their cardboard sales techniques for nothing but filthy lucre.
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Mike
In the “Witnessing and Undershepherding” class Donnie Fugit taught that the goal of all witnessing was PFAL.
I initially rebelled at such a thought, but gradually saw that it was right.
The goal was to bring people to hear exactly what we heard. The methods we could use along the way to that goal included all of what Catcup and pyroberge mentioned about love, testimonials, and spiritual spontaneity. But we were very new to it all then, and could only give a partial picture of the good that God had to offer in the class.
Through the Seventies these things worked pretty well, but the Corps did bring in a mechanical, and business-like element that eventually took over. Then it did indeed suck. I dodged the Corps lead downward as long as I could.
As far as the $200 raise, I thought it was more to filter out people from the class more than anything else. By that time there were some people taking the class for social reasons and not spiritual searching. I do not know why it was lowered back down later.
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pjroberge
Another thought about witnessing is this. What class or book did Jesus Christ, or the first century church promote? Answer none
The ministry of reconcilliation is not bringing people to a certain ministry or class. The ministry of reconcilliation is bring people back to God.
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Mike
Yes. And until we master what God put into that class, we cannot accomplish such a ministry of reconciliation.
To accomplish such a ministry we need the right tools. If we only partially mastered the tools, we can only partially reconcile. God made these tools available in the first century and again in the twentieth. It’s the Word.
II Cor. 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
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Steve!
As usual, smikeol's head is up his class.
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Georgio Jessio
"In my opinion, in the absence of the sales pitch we would have begun to witness Jesus Christ and His power."
That depends on the person. Alot of us are years removed from the way but do not pitch Jesus Christ and His power. Some were more wayfers than Christians. And as wayfers we became high pressure salesmen for a product not for Jesus Christ himself. As a result of the pressure, we witnessed to people who we knew weren't really interested in anything more than doughnuts, kisses and shelter. We considered a class a success by a) the size of the class (number of students) and b) whether or not they spoke in tounges. Not by if anyone was actually saved.
As a result we had a lot of practicing alcoholics and crackheads taking a class they weren't really interested in. And they "all" spoke in tongues. So that's considered a 'great' class.
We were practically on commission!
So, no , some of us wouldn't have ever witnessed to anyone if we weren't in twi. It was something we were taught IN twi.
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pjroberge
smikeol,
If you are able to come out of your piffle mindset for a moment,answer me this:
1) How did the Apostles operate the ministry of reconcilliation without piffle?
2) How did B.G. Leonard operate a ministry of deliverance far beyond VeePee's and was Veepee's teacher without your precious piffle
3) How is your holding piffle as an object of virtual worship by yourself not idolatry?
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shazdancer
You know you are in a cult when you can't just help someone or answer a question, but you have to defer them until they sign a card and pay.
Shaz
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Mike
Shaz,
In the earlier years many people attended many twigs and branch meetings without taking the class. They heard a lot and got helped and THEN took the class. I wass one. My first twig was in Novenber, but my class wasn't until the next April.
Classes were a little more rare then, and the pressure cooker for numbers hadn’t developed. Many people got helped who didn’t even come to twig when grads were sharp in witnessing. Yes, things changed later.
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Mike
Pjroberge,
Maybe you can tell me what kind of two-bit battle of wits you're engaging in with pejorative salutations, and plagiarized ones at that.
I spent most of my life outside my present PFAL mindset, so it’s very easy for me to switch gears. I attend weekly poetry meetings in the low rent gay district of town, filled not only with homosexuals, but with the most left-wing radical anarchists you’ve probably ever seen, and I have no trouble being friendly with absolutely everyone there. If there’s anyone stuck in a corrupt mindset it’s YOU! You talk just like the TWI robots, only with a vocabulary overhaul, but with the same attitudes of snickering stuckupedness.
Well, now that we’ve exchanges pleasantries, let’s get down to business.
You asked me:
1) How did the Apostles operate the ministry of reconcilliation without piffle?
2) How did B.G. Leonard operate a ministry of deliverance far beyond VeePee's and was Veepee's teacher without your precious piffle
3) How is your holding piffle as an object of virtual worship by yourself not idolatry?
1) They failed to operate it! Haven’t you seen that the first century church fell? Most of the epistles were reproof and correction, but it didn’t take. Most of the apostles had a hard time accepting the revelations God gave to Paul. Peter had to be rebuked by Paul (by revelation) in front of many people. That means he didn’t pay attention to the private approaches. Peter twice refused to accept the visions and revelation God gave him on the rooftop, and needed a third. Also he nearly screwed up at Cornelius’ house with water baptism. Finally Peter got it right and with his dying last words and said whatever you do, don’t screw up on the epistles of Paul because they were from God, and many DID screw up on them. It was to late, though, and Peter’s ministry failed. Even Paul screwed up and landed in jail, where he had to pretty much finish up his last epistles. Like us, they all started off pretty well, but need the written word to sustain the battle.
2)Gee? I looked it up on Google and couldn’t find any references on BG’s ministry being that successful. Where did you get that?
3)If it is the case that PFAL is revelation from God, then it is idolatry to NOT master it. If it is not revelation from God then my goose is cooked. Place your bet.
The KJV (or any other translation) is a man-made effort to re-construct the original meaning of the scriptures. The KJV is surely man-breathed, so fully embracing it is idolatry. How many KJV embracers have you asked question #3 of?
Some realize that the KJV is not authoritative and has mistakes, so they try to correct it with their own man-breathed efforts. They research it for themselves or they select and trust other scholars to do it for them. Either way, it still all man-breathed end-products that they embrace, so that’s idolatry.
I say from a distance that the safer bet is in PFAL, because it’s only maybe idolatry, while the KJV approach is surely idolatry.
When I close that distance and return to PFAL, my surety increases because the contents speak loud, and magnify the True God’s still small voice.
Now, let see if next time you can come up with something more witty to lambaste me with next time than smikeol, ok? That’s getting pretty old and worn out. And aren’t VeePee and piffle someone else’s work too? Do they know you’re trying to copyright them?
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rascal
I agree catcup ...I remember early on ...I had great success witnessing to others what God did for me...but eventually, we were pressured into being hawkers of pfal...canned sales pitches...motivational techniques....I hated it...the only folks takin pfal were the one who couldn`t think fast enough on their feet to get away from you...or friends and family members who just didn`t want to hurt your feelings.
Georgio, I remember vividly the bleakness I felt after my first app corpes meeting ...did we learn about serving God better? Did we learn how to become spiritually sharp? Did we learn how to help people? Oh hell no ...we had traveled hours to the limb ....only to be split up and dropped around the city for some door to door....OHBOY!!....I was so depressed on the way home contemplating how I would be nothing more than a high pressure salesman for God for the rest of my life ( I felt just like I did in high school when I had to sell oranges door to door I hated it and was ashamed) ....all success .... all future spirituality would be based on whether or not I could scrounge up a student for the next class...and the class after that and the class after that....it was my first glimpse of the real truth that lay behind twi...
I had the same experience working at a pet store....for 6 months...I sold an amazing number of animals and products...when I was just coming to work because I loved animals and enjoyed sharing that love...but then came new owners with the canned sales pitches ... the numbers each month showing who was top salesmen...the pats on the back...the recognition was focused on the ones who had high sales numbers while scowles and threats were reserved for those who`s numbers didn`t measure up....
Just like in twi we were given a couple of pages to memorise ...a schpeal that manuvered anyone who walked into the store into a corner and they usually ended up with a pet whether they wanted or needed one or not.....
It was a good schpeal too......how else could we sell substandard puppy mill puppies for 600 bucks when you could get one out of the paper or from a reputable breeder for 100? And of course there was the nearly 300 dollars in supplies that you just HAD to have for said pup....
Amazing the similarities as I look back...here we in our naievity ... convinced people that our product was so superior to anything out there so that they invested way more money and time ...we had to make em BELIEVE that our product was better and pressure em into a corner lest they take a brief look around and realise that there was better product without nearly the cost or heartbreak.....
I went from absolute top sales in the region when I was blythly ignorant to the reality of why I was there (ie to make money for the store) to the bottom...I hated it ....I hated whoring for the pet store and I hated whoring for twi.....
When we were all out there witnessing God, studying bible in our fellowships.......it was good...when we witnessed pfal and geared fellowship to running classes and rehashing pfal materials....it was horrible, stale, contrived...
Mike, ...people I sold those cute little puppies to ..... would come back after a visit to the vet with reports of genetic health issues...sickness....etc....n yep I was good enough ... I could convince them that that substandard puppy that they had mortgaged their soul for was STILL the best bang for their buck...and BECAUSE they were already emotionally attatched to the puppy....they bought the schpeal no matter WHAT the mountiing evidence was to the contrary....We would always say...oh just give us the dog and we will gladly refund your money........and then let slip what the fate was for said substandard puppy....nobody ever took us up on it.....
You been scammed buddy...you have bought the schpeal...and are clinging to it in desperation ....knowing that if you examin it just a little more closely...you will find out you have been screwed...
You keep that substandard sickly pup and continue to pour thousands of dollars into it cosseting it ..fiercly believing that the poor malformed, substandard, atrocity to the breed standard is a champion...go ahead, but the rest of us can see what that pup that you so highly esteem is REALLY worth....in SPITE of your protestations.
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Catcup
The goal of all witnessing is PFAL????
In the bible I read, the goal of all witnessing was to preach Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead.
The apostles failed to carry out the ministry of reconciliation???? Because they didn't have a class to push????
It seems to me, that they were a grand success. The very fact you KNOW about Jesus Christ was due to HIS impact on this world, not Victor Paul Wierwille's. Credit the apostles for spreading it across the known world at that time. THAT's why you know about Jesus Christ, sir.
There is NOTHING in the revealed Word of God that indicates otherwise, and NOTHING in the revealed Word of God that indicates we should give such idolatrous allegience to man's works that you indicate you do.
It is idolatrous. PFAL is not the goal of all witnessing. Jesus Christ and the resurrection is. That is the pattern throughout the book of Acts and the church epistles.
But I think most everyone here has learned of you, that, to quote your idol:
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
In other words, to debate this issue with a person who is so wrapped up in his idolatry is a complete waste of time and energy.
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pjroberge
Meow catcup, nicely put!
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def59
Mike has fallen to same temptation that is common to most cults _ namely that the first century church fell into apostasy, ignored the teachings of the apostles and were overcome by pagan beliefs.
To them the persecution the early believers suffered was a sign of unbelief, not a fulfillment of prophecy given by the Lord himself.
The fact that we have an understanding of the scriptures and Christ after 2,000 years is a testament to the early church, monks from the Middle Ages and the early translators.
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oldiesman
I have a real understanding and abiding appreciation of the scriptures from TWI-1. I first knew about Jesus from the Roman Catholic church, but didn't appreciate anything about his life, and wasn't taught hardly anything about him except he was a vengeful saviour. And all I did was religiously go to church most Sundays, religiously like a robot, but still in the dark to some key truths that, had I been taught all along, would have quenched the need to get involved in another Christian group. I wouldn't have wanted or needed TWI-1 at all, had I been taught those truths all along. So, I'm thankful for the early church, monks from the Middle Ages, the early translators, and Victor Paul Wierwille, his teachers, and other saints from twi, including my own family.
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def59
OM
A minor derail, but have you checked out the Brooklyn Tabernacle, I hear their choir and church are awesome.
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def59
OM
Be thankful, but let's be clear, the word was not hidden from the first century until 1942, despite vpw's claims.
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oldiesman
def59
Haven't checked it out ...One thing that hasn't been said here that perhaps pertains to the discussion is the fact that twi is/was one of many many Christian denominations that spreads the Word about Jesus Christ. I know mainly of my experiences with it, but it can help today as well for someone who needs to hear all about Jesus Christ and God's plan for salvation. Yeah, you don't need twi, there's always another church around the corner and on television. But on the other hand, let's not limit God to how we think He should work. Twi just might reach out and help someone, even today, and that's not too shabby. We don't always know how God works in peoples lives.
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George Aar
Mikey,
Re:"I initially rebelled at such a thought, but gradually saw that it was right."
Ooooo, GOOD DOG! Here's your biscuit!
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Mike
Oldiesman is right. The “Jesus” that the churches promote is a counterfeit. Some, like the RC Jesus, are crude and medieval, some are modern and gentle-like hippie. Even after 30 years of accepting the sentence “Jesus Christ Is Not God” I’ve detected in myself and all other grads a god-like image of Jesus that still remains.
For instance, when I proposed the image of him learning from PFAL it violated nearly every posters’ cherished image of him being all knowing, just like God.
I too am very thankful for the individuals, God’s infiltrators in the devil’s religious system, who sought and found light. I’m thankful for the monks who copied as accurately as they could and preserved the scriptures. I’m thankful for the theologians who broke away from the pack and found truths to deposit back into the culture. I’m thankful for the genuine missionaries who weren’t on a personal power trip and did spread the pieces of the Word that were preserved or re-discovered. I’m thankful for the original apostles who did do a good job at first (like us) under very adverse circumstances (unlike us). AND I’m thankful that God found a tireless, fearless, smart sinner like Dr. Wierwille who was willing to defy tradition after tradition (including the Holy Copyright Law) to put together all these many gallantly prefabricated pieces of Word he received from his predecessors in the order God told him to make PFAL, and to market (yes, market) it around the world.
The more we develop a real spiritual relationship with God’s Christ (not an 5-senses emotional relationship with a pretty boy Caucasian god-hippie foisted on us by the devil) then we will see that the Word, the WHOLE Word was buried and unavailable before 1942. It was lost in the first century and kept down for centuries. Look how it took 1500 years for someone to get around to reading Romans, believing it, and defying traditional authority to distribute it like Luther did.
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Raf
You are a master all right: a master of misrepresentation. For your information (twit), the objection was not due to the feeling that Jesus is all-knowing, but rather to the feeling that 2000 years of direct connection with God and being seated at His right hand requires a supplemental education to be found in your flawed orange book. That you should think Jesus ever had something to learn from PFAL reveals (as if it needed revealing by this point) the sad depth of your idolatry.
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Mike
Time is part of the creation, and not a limitation on God.
With God there is no time.
Jesus Christ sat down on the right hand of God 2000 years ago by our reckoning of time.
But we are instructed in II Cor.5:16 to no longer know Christ after the flesh, the 5-senses realm, the natural realm, which includes time.
How Jesus Christ fares in time seated next to the Creator of time I can not fathom very deeply since so much of my knowledge is still 5-senses.
Here’s just ONE possibility to consider: At the Ascension God propelled Jesus through time into the future, to the time of his return. In that scenario Jesus did NOT have the 2000 years of learning you assume.
Just some thoughts.
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Raf
Here's a scenario for you to consider:
God and Jesus Christ are face to face. God talks to Christ directly, tells him everything he needs to know.
I mean, you don't even KNOW how ridiculous you sound! That God would need to send Jesus to the future to read PFAL instead of JUST TELLING HIM TO HIS FACE!
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oldiesman
We need to get Jesus in that heavenly PFAL class ... Mike will run it, Dr will teach it. Raf you wanna bring the cookies?
HAPPY WEEKEND, ONE AND ALL!
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