quote: Yes. And until we master what God put into that class, we cannot accomplish such a ministry of reconciliation.
You have got to be kidding me!!!! The ministry of reconciliation has been going on for years WITHOUT PFAL! I've been to many churches in the past few years, and I've seen them reconcile many back to GOD, not some dumb a$$ class.
Well, to get back to your original question, Pat, I think Jesus was alive and well at some point in TWI. Seems to me that "principles and laws" replaced him at some point in time. I can't really pinpoint it for the way as a whole, but I know that for me, it happened when I graduated from the corps and became a "leader."
Somehow then, I no longer was a "follower of the Lord Jesus Christ" as much as I was an important somebody in the corporation, who had to prove myself with numbers. :(-->
Becoming a branch coordinator took the fun out of everything. ;)--> Although, we still saw some awesome things happen, as some posters here will attest. We just got bogged down with admininstrative stuff, that VP and company always criticized. Yet, TWI was way worse than any church I've ever been a part of, as far as that goes.
Funny thing, but what VPW criticized churches for, he and his organization were way more guilty of.....Isn't that the way it always goes though? :D-->
I know one song VPW sang several times, mainly at outdoor gatherings, was "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus"...no Christ in it, just Jesus. I remember it from the corps, and I remember when he sang it at an evening outdoor get together at PFAL '77 at Muncie.
Yes, there was the selling...the "motivational techniques" we were taught in the corps. But Jesus wasnt entirely absent. Of course, Ex, I got yanked out before you graduated.
quote:For instance, when I proposed the image of him learning from PFAL it violated nearly every posters’ cherished image of him being all knowing, just like God.
"Jim, I'm a physician, not a mind reader!"
Actually Mike it's just that it's such a surreal mind picture, not that He is or was all-knowing. It's just such a ludicrous idea, given apparently so that you can read into the responses what you've already decided everyone thinks.
But relating to the topic, regardless of how a person learns about Jesus Christ, it's Jesus Christ who's the focal point of the "Christian" message. IMO, if PFAL were a success people would talk about Christ and the life of following Him, not PFAL. You don't get orange juice by licking the orange peels, you gotta get personal with that pulp.
Ok Mike, let's just assume for the moment that you are 100% correct about PFAL being the greatest, God-breathed revelation since the church epistles. Other than pounding your head against the brick wall that is Greasespot Cafe, what are YOU doing to take this soul-saving miracle to the masses? Surely you must realize that you are Martin Luther III (the first and second being, The Original Luther, and then, of Course, VEEPEE). You are like the lone voice, crying in the wilderness. God has sent you on a mission! And you are failing miserably!
So does Charles Stanley, Ravi Zacharias, and Tony Evans, and (I will also include) vpw in this line-up.
I don't think promoting "any one man's theology" cuts it -- reguardless of who they are. Promoting the overall message, that all of the above mentioned seem to support, is the ultimate goal -- not just one individual "doctrine".
A minor derail, but have you checked out the Brooklyn Tabernacle, I hear their choir and church are awesome.
Haven't checked it out ...
One thing that hasn't been said here that perhaps pertains to the discussion is the fact that twi is/was one of many many Christian denominations that spreads the Word about Jesus Christ. I know mainly of my experiences with it, but it can help today as well for someone who needs to hear all about Jesus Christ and God's plan for salvation. Yeah, you don't need twi, there's always another church around the corner and on television. But on the other hand, let's not limit God to how we think He should work. Twi just might reach out and help someone, even today, and that's not too shabby. We don't always know how God works in peoples lives.
:)-->
Even if we decided to limit God in that fashion, it would in no way
require God Almighty to conform to our feeble intellects.
God can utilize the most unlikely people, the most unlikely places, the
most unlikely things.
That having been said, I think we can all agree that, if we want to be
a part of God's plan and execution of same, we should strive to be the
best we can, as defined by God. Just because God can work with an
idolatrous wifebeating hatemonger doesn't mean that we should all become
quote:That having been said, I think we can all agree that, if we want to be a part of God's plan and execution of same, we should strive to be the best we can, as defined by God. Just because God can work with an idolatrous wifebeating hatemonger doesn't mean that we should all become idolatrous wifebeating (or husbandbeating) hatemongers.
Well, there goes Plan B. :D-->
Makes sounds sense, WW. Trust, choices we make as to what we do, who we listen too. VPW is a good example of what it is to shoot yourself in your own foot. "I've got something that really needs to be heard! It's..." *KAPOWWW!*
"OWWW!" Out of action.
I see Jesus Christ as "ground zero". The focal point, the core message. In His days on earth people could find him, follow Him. I've grappled with the tendency to see this whole "body of Christ-new man-token gift" thing as a linear path of 1-2-3, me to you to him to her to someone else and then to Christ, and then to God and then back down through everyone again to me. "Hey, down in front, I can't see back here! I told you we should have left early if we wanted to get good seats, honey!" Sign up here, go there, take this class, you have no class, get some class, get a good seat and do it again next week.
But it's not that way is it? With Christ you can be last and have the same rights as the first ones who came early, got the t-shirts, brought chairs, saved space with their blankets and have a hella good bar-b-q going. Our relationship to God and Christ is a through all and in us all deal, sort of a peer to peer network with a grand server in the center. His mission - provide a no-stop direct-on path to God. Fellowship is around the life we have now, rooted and grounded in the same thing, fed by the same source.
And when the message and the point of it all is about Jesus Christ and how he is Lord, seems like we don't walk away talking about how great a teaching so-and-so taught, but how awesome it is to be connected with THE MAN. Ya know?
***Mo grabbed the almost dead horse and drug him to water where he wouldn't drink, instead he preferred to read a small orange book as he died from dehydration. Then she realized that the whole exercise had been a waste of time, effort and typing skills****
Sorry MIke but that's how I Feel about your more inane commentary--sometimes I thought you did it just to annoy and that you did it just to see how much flak you could create--other times I thought you were clueless.
Now I no longer care, I just wish you would stop maligning and limiting the scope and power of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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Raf
Mike, listen to me. Lean in real close...
Idolatrous pigswill!!!
Thank you for playing.
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Trefor Heywood
I sometimes wonder if Mike thinks that God would benefit from PFAL!
:D-->
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Nottawayfer
You have got to be kidding me!!!! The ministry of reconciliation has been going on for years WITHOUT PFAL! I've been to many churches in the past few years, and I've seen them reconcile many back to GOD, not some dumb a$$ class.
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Nottawayfer
I have to say that quote is complete crap. I got to know my Lord much better IN CHURCH!!!
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pjroberge
What mike doesn't realize it that he won't be able to smell crap until he pulls his head out of VPW's *** filled with PFAL turds.....
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ex10
Well, to get back to your original question, Pat, I think Jesus was alive and well at some point in TWI. Seems to me that "principles and laws" replaced him at some point in time. I can't really pinpoint it for the way as a whole, but I know that for me, it happened when I graduated from the corps and became a "leader."
Somehow then, I no longer was a "follower of the Lord Jesus Christ" as much as I was an important somebody in the corporation, who had to prove myself with numbers.
:(-->
Becoming a branch coordinator took the fun out of everything.
;)--> Although, we still saw some awesome things happen, as some posters here will attest. We just got bogged down with admininstrative stuff, that VP and company always criticized. Yet, TWI was way worse than any church I've ever been a part of, as far as that goes.
Funny thing, but what VPW criticized churches for, he and his organization were way more guilty of.....Isn't that the way it always goes though?
:D-->
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What The Hay
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Lifted Up
I know one song VPW sang several times, mainly at outdoor gatherings, was "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus"...no Christ in it, just Jesus. I remember it from the corps, and I remember when he sang it at an evening outdoor get together at PFAL '77 at Muncie.
Yes, there was the selling...the "motivational techniques" we were taught in the corps. But Jesus wasnt entirely absent. Of course, Ex, I got yanked out before you graduated.
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socks
"Jim, I'm a physician, not a mind reader!"
Actually Mike it's just that it's such a surreal mind picture, not that He is or was all-knowing. It's just such a ludicrous idea, given apparently so that you can read into the responses what you've already decided everyone thinks.
But relating to the topic, regardless of how a person learns about Jesus Christ, it's Jesus Christ who's the focal point of the "Christian" message. IMO, if PFAL were a success people would talk about Christ and the life of following Him, not PFAL. You don't get orange juice by licking the orange peels, you gotta get personal with that pulp.
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Cherished Child
Ok Mike, let's just assume for the moment that you are 100% correct about PFAL being the greatest, God-breathed revelation since the church epistles. Other than pounding your head against the brick wall that is Greasespot Cafe, what are YOU doing to take this soul-saving miracle to the masses? Surely you must realize that you are Martin Luther III (the first and second being, The Original Luther, and then, of Course, VEEPEE). You are like the lone voice, crying in the wilderness. God has sent you on a mission! And you are failing miserably!
WHAT KIND OF APOSTLE/PROPHET ARE YOU, ANYWAY!
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dmiller
Brad Young teaches some things that are correct:
Greg Boyd teaches some things that are correct:
Ed Fudge teaches some things that are correct:
So does Charles Stanley, Ravi Zacharias, and Tony Evans, and (I will also include) vpw in this line-up.
I don't think promoting "any one man's theology" cuts it -- reguardless of who they are. Promoting the overall message, that all of the above mentioned seem to support, is the ultimate goal -- not just one individual "doctrine".
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WordWolf
Even if we decided to limit God in that fashion, it would in no way
require God Almighty to conform to our feeble intellects.
God can utilize the most unlikely people, the most unlikely places, the
most unlikely things.
That having been said, I think we can all agree that, if we want to be
a part of God's plan and execution of same, we should strive to be the
best we can, as defined by God. Just because God can work with an
idolatrous wifebeating hatemonger doesn't mean that we should all become
idolatrous wifebeating (or husbandbeating) hatemongers.
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socks
Well, there goes Plan B.
:D-->
Makes sounds sense, WW. Trust, choices we make as to what we do, who we listen too. VPW is a good example of what it is to shoot yourself in your own foot. "I've got something that really needs to be heard! It's..." *KAPOWWW!*
"OWWW!" Out of action.
I see Jesus Christ as "ground zero". The focal point, the core message. In His days on earth people could find him, follow Him. I've grappled with the tendency to see this whole "body of Christ-new man-token gift" thing as a linear path of 1-2-3, me to you to him to her to someone else and then to Christ, and then to God and then back down through everyone again to me. "Hey, down in front, I can't see back here! I told you we should have left early if we wanted to get good seats, honey!" Sign up here, go there, take this class, you have no class, get some class, get a good seat and do it again next week.
But it's not that way is it? With Christ you can be last and have the same rights as the first ones who came early, got the t-shirts, brought chairs, saved space with their blankets and have a hella good bar-b-q going. Our relationship to God and Christ is a through all and in us all deal, sort of a peer to peer network with a grand server in the center. His mission - provide a no-stop direct-on path to God. Fellowship is around the life we have now, rooted and grounded in the same thing, fed by the same source.
"Party at Ground Zero".
:D-->
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ex10
Exactly, socks.
And when the message and the point of it all is about Jesus Christ and how he is Lord, seems like we don't walk away talking about how great a teaching so-and-so taught, but how awesome it is to be connected with THE MAN. Ya know?
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templelady
***Mo grabbed the almost dead horse and drug him to water where he wouldn't drink, instead he preferred to read a small orange book as he died from dehydration. Then she realized that the whole exercise had been a waste of time, effort and typing skills****
Sorry MIke but that's how I Feel about your more inane commentary--sometimes I thought you did it just to annoy and that you did it just to see how much flak you could create--other times I thought you were clueless.
Now I no longer care, I just wish you would stop maligning and limiting the scope and power of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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dmiller
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