Shoot johniam, nobody is trying to shame you or anybody else....There are many of us who DO feel shame however, for our foolishness once we realise the pain and hurt we have caused by adherance to the false doctrines.
Many of us DO feel guilty for our behaviors that we indulged in while involved in twi...it`s all a part of the recognition of cleverly disguised evil, and cleansing ourselves....
Think for a miniute guys.....if you were TAUGHT by a man of the flesh....if you BELIEVE what a man of the flesh did was alright because you THINK that you might have learned something usefull....if folks that speak the truth anger you unreasonably... ...if you are seeing and accusing folks of conspiracies that aren`t there....calling those that speak the truth liars...thenconsider please...that YOU sir/ma`am, might possibly be of the flesh as well.
Examine yourselves...honsestly see where trusting this man of the flesh and holding on to his perception of truth has gotten you.
quote:Oldies you have called many liares about what happen to them.
Hi Danny! No, I haven't called many liars about what happened to them! That's ridiculous, how could I call someone a liar about something that happened to them, if I wasn't there?
I HAVE called people false accusers, when they falsely accuse me of something. When someone has falsely accused me of something, I guess that does include lying, so yeah, when I am falsely accused, the person doing the false accusing should put away lying, as well.
I HAVE said I do not believe everything I read on the internet. Do YOU believe everything you read on the internet?
Ya know, perhaps I should just start calling people liars when they type something. After all, that's what I'm being accused of, calling people liars, and maybe I should just do it, so that these folks who are falsely accusing me of calling people liars will get some kicks ...
Oldies...word wolf pulled up one thread...it was one of several...you called me and others liars ion the abortion thread...you called those who posted on the on the child abuse thread liars as well...I remember you calling the women that were sexually abused by wierwill liars as well on a thread when you arrived here years ago....standard mo...untill enough witnesses rub your nose in the facts....and then you switch gears and try to excuse the evil actions that at one time you denied ever existing in the first place...
Now you are calling us liars for saying that you called us liars....everyone has seen you do it oldies....your credibility goes even further down the toilet with your silly little semantics games...
How bout this....apologise for being mistaken in your assumptions about the abuse that was endured........show a little compassion for your bretheren that were despitefully used....recognise and place the evil squarely on the shoulders of those who indulged and perpetrated the abuse instead of trying to fault those assaulted....n you might draw a whole lot less fire.
Not that I think you would do it...that would be the noble thing. I think you simply like hurting folks.
quote:How bout this....apologise for being mistaken in your assumptions about the abuse that was endured........
Rascal, if anyone was relaying their personal testimony on these threads, and I called them a liar, then please produce the thread where I directly called anyone a liar while writing personal testimony, and I will publicly apologize. If you can't produce anything, then kindly be quiet.
If memory serves, I do remember once that I disbelieved someone who relayed personal testimony, and later apologized because someone stated I wasn't there, so how would I know? Words to that effect.
But that's not what we're talking about here, and the fact you should bring something up that's that old, reveals your heart for past trash ...
I will apologize to YOU, Rascal, for calling you a false accuser, when you apologize to ME, for various and sundry things, including "attacks on the innocent".
Keep your apology Oldies...it would mean nothing coming from you...
You are not a man of decency.
As for me, I have nothing to apologise for....as I have done absolutely nothing dishonest on these boards..ever!
This is but one more thread in your long posting history of falsley stating peoples positions...of accusing them of lying...of setting up straw men...
Problem is....most folks are on to you now ... we understand why you must believe that what wierwille did was good...we know that when folks didn`t MIND what the spiritually *mature* did...that the folks were treated much better who were *enlightened* ... ...that made it all alright...
Do you think that the REASON we don`t apreciate or excuse wierwilles sex club...his meanness...drunkeness....his lying.... his misapropriation of our money...our sisters.. ...his adultery ...his plagerism...is because we aren`t *spiritual* enough to understand and enjoy our freedomes in Christ yet?
Thats what folks were told who didn`t agree and excuse the evil.
Wierwille's sex club and his other sins didn't stop God and his word from moving in twi-1.
Yes, my whole family appreciated from those who moved the word in twi-1, along with a whole lot of other folks.
The fact that those secret evil things happened doesn't change the blessings that happened, and I'm not going to renounce the blessings of God working in people's lives. Those are factual, historical realities.
The fact that you keep bringing the evil up and can't stop doing it, only proves that that's all your concerned about. That's all you care to remember.
Rascal you certainly have a right to dwell on whatever you want, just don't expect me to follow your example.
If you inspect the fruit in wierwilles life ...(as God told us to do)... It becomes clear that his life as a man of the flesh disqualified him as a minister .... made it impossible to truly obtain and understand things of the spirit.
Had he....he never would have *enjoyed* the fruits of darkness that he habitually endulged himself with.
It is a mistake to trust a man of the flesh and put credence in his interprtations...he will lead you into darkness as well.
You eshew following MY example...pretty funny when you look at the life and actions of the man who`s example you DO choose to follow...
Rascal vs a lying plagerising drunken adulterous fornicating soul destroying mean tempered sob ....
quote: It is a mistake to trust a man of the flesh and put credence in his interprtations...he will lead you into darkness as well.
Here's where we differ on this Rascal.
Here's what I believe: when Wierwille was walking by the flesh, he was walking by the flesh. When he was walking by the spirit, he was walking by the spirit.
YOU seem to be of the viewpoint that it was impossible for Wierwille to receive anything from the true God, or communicate anything from the true God, because Wierwille walked by the flesh too much. I do not believe this ...
I think this is the same old crap about God not dealing with anyone unclean ...
God works with sinners ... if HE didn't, I think we're all in a heap of doo dooo.
Galations says look at the fruit in his life...and it will tell you whether or not he was a man of the spirit.
If he is a man of the flesh, you dare not trust ANY of what he wrote/taught, because you never know when he was of the flesh or of the spirit...
I DO know what galations says of a man of the flesh however, .....one who manifested wierwilles fruits...it says that they *have no inheritance in the kingdome of God*. PERIOD!
Why is galations there buddy? It`s to warn us of false bretheren...you know...the ones who are able to talk the talk SO good, that you cannot tell what is truly on the inside....heck, I`ll even go so far as to say that wierwille even believed that he was entitled.....It is an invaluable tool given in order to avoid being decieved.....
Had wierwille been a man of the spirit...I`m telling you.....those things would have held no appeal for him....he would have had no oportunity with resisting the temptations....but his actions...the behaviors he himself succumbed to, tell exactly what his inner being was.....he was simply adept at making it appear acceptable when caught.
Think about it....wierwille was the one who TAUGHT you not to examine ones fruit...mislabled it as *thinking evil* silenced us against evil by mislabeling it *lock box*....silenced that voice of God by labeling the disquiet as *senses*
Can you not see that those practicing evil didn`t WANT us aware of our responsibility?
I am sorry...for you to excuse and deny the reality will forever condemn you to live in the darkness of his false doctrine.
quote: I asked earlier "and what are we guilting you out of with this agenda, j-am???? what, praytell?? overfond memories of your youth, perhaps??"
You and some of the others are trying to make us feel ashamed (guilty) because we still value some of VPs teachings. You have the same 'we're the only ones who are right' mentality that you accuse TWI of.
Is that so, j-boy?? please produce chapter and verse.... you obviously are NOT reading what is written. Here is a quote, in it's entirety:
" .. quote:Originally posted by oldiesman:
quote:But just remember this - Whenever you represent folks as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad/wrong because of his sins - know for a fact that you are misrepresenting and lying about the truth of what is really being said.
Goey, yes, this is how I read what some folks are saying when they talk about the Leaven Principle as it relates to twi. I think you're misstating what the Leaven Principle means and what folks think about it.
Stop the spin Oldies. I was not referring to the intprepretaion of the "Leaven Princple". I said you are dishonest/lying when you represent others as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad because of his sins. Address what I actually say Oldies and not what you twist it to imply.
quote:I think some folks are so angry and disappointed at VPW because of his transgressions, they've thrown out the baby with the bathwater because, as Pat described it, "most of the time, the crap is so integral in the baby so that even though you have thrown out the bath water, you still have a crap filled baby."
I don't think you ever answered me previously about what your baby is. Are you afraid or ashamed to answer. One thing I doubt, is I doubt that your baby is God's Word. I also doubt that is it the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My best guess is that your "baby" is PFAL, the teachings of VPW, and glorification of him as your teacher. This would certainly explain why you whitewash VPW's errors and behavior with all of your "yes buts".
Another thing is prettly clear to me, that is that you have very little knowledge or feel for the scriptures themeselves. You almost never use the Bible/scripture to make a point. Interesting for someone who is concerned about people abandoning "The Word". -- For example, you say I missapplied the "Leaven Principle" yet you offer no Biblical exposition as to why. Why not?
quote:D-->o you really believe some folks would have the problems they do with twi, had Wierwille lived a devout life? Let's take all the spin away, and answer that one question.
If VPW had lead a devout life, he would not have plagairized Bullinger, Stiles and others. Therefore there would have been no PFAL and therefore no TWI. So the answer is is no.
quote:Some folks may not say outright they believe "everything" about twi was bad, but, they may just as well say it, because that's the way I read their writings.
I see you have now changed "everything in TWI was bad because if VPW sins" to just "everything was bad" - omitting the "because of his sins part". You know that changes the argument don't you - of course you do. It was intentional on your part or very sloppy. So which one is it Oldies?
1. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad. or
2. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad because of VPW sins.
Which one is it Oldies, and who are these "some folks"? Lets have some names and some exmples. Quote what they said and then show how it means either of the above? You can't do it can you? That's why you probably won't even try. Your conscience has been seared.
Oldies, it is dispicable how you intentionally misrepresent people, whitewash sin and evil, and defend the indefensible.
quote: That's why, when I bring up some "good things" about twi-1, why do some folks get so angry and defensive and engage in sarcasm, namecalling and put-downs?
If you were actually trying to bring some balance to the discussion it wouldn't be a problem. But it seems pretty clear your agenda to simply to whitewash the truth and glorify TWI-1 and VPW. IMO, you are spirtually caustic, intellectually dishonest, generally uncaring, and only here to defend VPW and your precious TWI-1. That is why folks engage in sarcasm, and put-downs Oldies.
quote:I think because they don't really care what good happened and don't want to hear any of it because in their mind, it doesn't matter what good existed. To them, the evil is the only thing that has any real meaning.
Oh, I doubt that Oldies. You think in black and white most of the time. You probably think like that because of your extreme bias and adoration of VPW/TWI-1 as viewed through your rose colored glasses. If someone mentions the bad - you presume that they deny the good and feel compelled to point it out. You project your own B & W thinking upon others. You deny the evil for the most part and only really admit the good stuff. So you project the opposite upon others. It does not make for good discussion.
quote:I don't think I am misrepresenting and lying about those who think this way.
Of course you don't. - I am sure you have it all justified in your mind.
quote:It appears obvious to me by the way some people react to what I have to say that this is the way of things.
If I were you, I would think about that statment - it's really pretty ignorant and not even close to the real reason "some" folks react to you the way they do.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Goey, October 18, 2004 21:57
Goey "
***************************
Yeah, I do not really see some agenda to guilt anybody, j-boy. and here is a post just below yours by Just Thinking , in case you were too busy being defrauded and guilty....
""WW,
In this case, I don't mind you throwing me into the fracas. If that's the worst you say about me... :-)
IMO, useless (at best) and harmful (at worst) discussions start with vague questions. OM started with:
"I just don't get it, so I'd like to know if there are any biblical or logical viewpoints out there that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is something God expects of us"
As I pointed out before, the word "bathwater" doesn't actually appear in the KJV Bible. So... we get to try to interpret OM's questions. If done unintentionally, it is just confusing and likely to lead to misunderstandings. If it is done on purpose, it allows the one who poses the question to "reinterpret" what was meant when it is convenient. I stand by what I said at the start of thread:
Wow, one loaded or misleading question or statement after another:
"We learned God's Word in TWI."
First, not everyone agrees with you. Second, "God's Word" is a wayferism that means different things to different people. Does that mean the printed Bible, the Bible as interpreted (or whatever you want to call it) by Vic Weirwille's borrowed material or something else?
"Not everything we were taught is the truth, but what is truth, is truth, and is God's will for us to know and believe. There are some basic truths we learned in twi that are common Christian beliefs."
Here again, I'm sure you believe you learned truth in TWI. For me, I probably got more wrong information than right. It has taken a lot to sift through it and am still going. PJ is right, IMO, that it can be almost impossible to pull out all the weeds because there were so many. As for them being common Christian beliefs, there does not seem to be one other Christian group that agrees with them. Which Christians do you mean exactly?
"And so I wonder why some folks find it wrong that some folks cling on to these truths, even though mindful of sins committed in twi."
I can't speak for others but I personally don't care what you believe or don't.
"I think some folks think we who still believe these truths, should renounce them, because of the evil deeds of some in twi. Are folks like myself being selfish because we refuse to renounce our beliefs?"
Nice trick question. Ask in such a way as to only allow an answer that appears to back you up.
If I say you are selfish:
I would be saying you should give up your beliefs because I say so. Hardly defensible.
If I say you are not selfing:
I appear to be supporting your views.
Very good! You win either way.
"I just don't get it, so I'd like to know if there are any biblical or logical viewpoints out there that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is something God expects of us? That we should renounce our beliefs because of the evils of twi?
I checked my concordance and the word "bath water" does not appear to be in there. Another trick question but not nearly as good as the others. Who is really going to say "I think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater?" They may agree with your view or, as PJ said, feel that there is either no baby there or it is hopelessly intermixed. Regardless, I doubt
anyone has actually said that to you. It is more likely simply your interpretation of their view. If you can point to a response to you where someone has actually recommended that in those words, please do so.""
*******************************************
You might care to quit projecting and actually start READING -- or just go on blabbing, without any connection to the discussion, your choice.
"Wierwille's sex club and his other sins didn't stop God and his word from moving in twi-1."
I beg your pardon.
When that man, whom you so blindly worship and defend, made advances toward a young, innocent, unsuspecting woman in his motorcoach, then LIED TO ME when I asked what happend,
YES, "God and his word" stopped moving in that young woman's life right then and there. She was irreparably damaged. And you can multiply that times however many women he did this to.
quote:Galations says look at the fruit in his life...and it will tell you whether or not he was a man of the spirit.
Why waste all your time looking at VPW? Your better off looking at the fruit in your life rather than his or anybody elses. The context of Galatians is not about examining somebody else's "fruit" or their flesh. It is about "faith which worketh by love", not about justifying the flesh through the works of the law.
Just for the record I saw more of Galatians 5:22,23 in VPW's life than any other minister I ever met. I still have many tapes where he taught God's Word while he was alive, so I know I have a better picture of the man VPW was rather than your (and others) spewing the same old regurgitated venom that primarily came out of the mouth of his critics way back when.
The fruit in VPW's life (not from his critics POV but from actual past records of VPW) shows a completely different picture than what you and others at GSC keep propounding. You all keep sounding like: "Crazy Miranda, lives on propaganda - she believes anything she reads. It could be one side or the other, Free Press or Time Life covers. Follows newsprint anywhere it leads ..." (borrowing from an old Jefferson Starship tune.)
Just because I see a different picture of VPW than what you see (from whatever slanted P.O.V. yours happens to be) that doesn't make me or anyone else an idol worshiper of VPW. I only have a very small (tape) record of the type of person VPW was, not a complete record of his life. But you don't have a complete record on the life of VPW nor does anybody else, so your conclusion of who VPW was is no more conclusive and accurate than mine - or anybody elses for that matter!
To answer the question, was VPW a man of the Spirit? The answer to that question would be both yes and no, not one or the other. The people who insist on a single answer to that question are people who have some "personal agenda" - and whether they want you to be for or against VPW. The only problem with their personal agenda is, it's not the true God's agenda.
I believe when the doctrine has been so poisoned by the behavior of a person this closely attached to it, you lose NOTHING by tossing out the MAN AND THE DOCTRINE.
If the doctrine was correct, and truthful, then it can be corroborated by TRUE INDEPENDENT RESEARCH.
Then the truth is recovered, without being tainted by the poisonous brew of hypocritical practices and harmful mental habit patterns.
Get rid of the old terminology which causes the mind to simply go numbly humming along the same cultic mental ruts and destroys critical thinking.
You will not learn to think for yourself again until those mental habit patterns are shattered.
The truth will stand. Toss it out. Toss it all out.
Then approach the Word with a fresh viewpoint. And do HONEST TO GOD TRUE RESEARCH. If it was real truth, guess what? YOU WILL FIND IT AGAIN, and this time without all the putrid rotting garbage that was wrapped around it.
It says that when people demonstrate the behaviors wierwille did...(repeatedly) ...they are of the flesh and have no inheritance in the kingdome of God....sorry no in between...he was what he chose to be ... damn him.
Catcup, I am so terribly sorry, the account that you spoke of still angers and sickens me....and to think, that senario was repeated so many times with other young girls....... the man had no conscience... as not only did he deny it...he destroyed her credibility... attempted to alienate her family....the despicable pos defamed her unmercifully in order to cover his own bu tt....it was not the only time either.
Nice guy.
This man was just plain seared mentally, as a man of the spirit would not have done what he did...repeatedly.
quote:YES, "God and his word" stopped moving in that young woman's life right then and there. She was irreparably damaged. And you can multiply that times however many women he did this to.
There's no doubt in my mind that Wierwille's evil works caused some folks to get hurt. ...
quote:Just for the record I saw more of Galatians 5:22,23 in VPW's life than any other minister I ever met.
There's no doubt in my mind that Wierwille's good works caused some folks to get help. ...
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JustThinking
I don't recall getting a response to any of the points listed above.
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rascal
Shoot johniam, nobody is trying to shame you or anybody else....There are many of us who DO feel shame however, for our foolishness once we realise the pain and hurt we have caused by adherance to the false doctrines.
Many of us DO feel guilty for our behaviors that we indulged in while involved in twi...it`s all a part of the recognition of cleverly disguised evil, and cleansing ourselves....
Think for a miniute guys.....if you were TAUGHT by a man of the flesh....if you BELIEVE what a man of the flesh did was alright because you THINK that you might have learned something usefull....if folks that speak the truth anger you unreasonably... ...if you are seeing and accusing folks of conspiracies that aren`t there....calling those that speak the truth liars...thenconsider please...that YOU sir/ma`am, might possibly be of the flesh as well.
Examine yourselves...honsestly see where trusting this man of the flesh and holding on to his perception of truth has gotten you.
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oldiesman
I HAVE called people false accusers, when they falsely accuse me of something. When someone has falsely accused me of something, I guess that does include lying, so yeah, when I am falsely accused, the person doing the false accusing should put away lying, as well.
I HAVE said I do not believe everything I read on the internet. Do YOU believe everything you read on the internet?
Ya know, perhaps I should just start calling people liars when they type something. After all, that's what I'm being accused of, calling people liars, and maybe I should just do it, so that these folks who are falsely accusing me of calling people liars will get some kicks ...
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rascal
Oldies...word wolf pulled up one thread...it was one of several...you called me and others liars ion the abortion thread...you called those who posted on the on the child abuse thread liars as well...I remember you calling the women that were sexually abused by wierwill liars as well on a thread when you arrived here years ago....standard mo...untill enough witnesses rub your nose in the facts....and then you switch gears and try to excuse the evil actions that at one time you denied ever existing in the first place...
Now you are calling us liars for saying that you called us liars....everyone has seen you do it oldies....your credibility goes even further down the toilet with your silly little semantics games...
How bout this....apologise for being mistaken in your assumptions about the abuse that was endured........show a little compassion for your bretheren that were despitefully used....recognise and place the evil squarely on the shoulders of those who indulged and perpetrated the abuse instead of trying to fault those assaulted....n you might draw a whole lot less fire.
Not that I think you would do it...that would be the noble thing. I think you simply like hurting folks.
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oldiesman
If memory serves, I do remember once that I disbelieved someone who relayed personal testimony, and later apologized because someone stated I wasn't there, so how would I know? Words to that effect.
But that's not what we're talking about here, and the fact you should bring something up that's that old, reveals your heart for past trash ...
I will apologize to YOU, Rascal, for calling you a false accuser, when you apologize to ME, for various and sundry things, including "attacks on the innocent".
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rascal
Keep your apology Oldies...it would mean nothing coming from you...
You are not a man of decency.
As for me, I have nothing to apologise for....as I have done absolutely nothing dishonest on these boards..ever!
This is but one more thread in your long posting history of falsley stating peoples positions...of accusing them of lying...of setting up straw men...
Problem is....most folks are on to you now ... we understand why you must believe that what wierwille did was good...we know that when folks didn`t MIND what the spiritually *mature* did...that the folks were treated much better who were *enlightened* ... ...that made it all alright...
Do you think that the REASON we don`t apreciate or excuse wierwilles sex club...his meanness...drunkeness....his lying.... his misapropriation of our money...our sisters.. ...his adultery ...his plagerism...is because we aren`t *spiritual* enough to understand and enjoy our freedomes in Christ yet?
Thats what folks were told who didn`t agree and excuse the evil.
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oldiesman
Wierwille's sex club and his other sins didn't stop God and his word from moving in twi-1.
Yes, my whole family appreciated from those who moved the word in twi-1, along with a whole lot of other folks.
The fact that those secret evil things happened doesn't change the blessings that happened, and I'm not going to renounce the blessings of God working in people's lives. Those are factual, historical realities.
The fact that you keep bringing the evil up and can't stop doing it, only proves that that's all your concerned about. That's all you care to remember.
Rascal you certainly have a right to dwell on whatever you want, just don't expect me to follow your example.
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rascal
Another false accusation *dwelling on evil* ...
Lol.. galations calls it discernment by fruit.
If you inspect the fruit in wierwilles life ...(as God told us to do)... It becomes clear that his life as a man of the flesh disqualified him as a minister .... made it impossible to truly obtain and understand things of the spirit.
Had he....he never would have *enjoyed* the fruits of darkness that he habitually endulged himself with.
It is a mistake to trust a man of the flesh and put credence in his interprtations...he will lead you into darkness as well.
You eshew following MY example...pretty funny when you look at the life and actions of the man who`s example you DO choose to follow...
Rascal vs a lying plagerising drunken adulterous fornicating soul destroying mean tempered sob ....
Your loss friend.
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oldiesman
Here's what I believe: when Wierwille was walking by the flesh, he was walking by the flesh. When he was walking by the spirit, he was walking by the spirit.
YOU seem to be of the viewpoint that it was impossible for Wierwille to receive anything from the true God, or communicate anything from the true God, because Wierwille walked by the flesh too much. I do not believe this ...
I think this is the same old crap about God not dealing with anyone unclean ...
God works with sinners ... if HE didn't, I think we're all in a heap of doo dooo.
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rascal
Thats not what galations says Oldies...
Galations says look at the fruit in his life...and it will tell you whether or not he was a man of the spirit.
If he is a man of the flesh, you dare not trust ANY of what he wrote/taught, because you never know when he was of the flesh or of the spirit...
I DO know what galations says of a man of the flesh however, .....one who manifested wierwilles fruits...it says that they *have no inheritance in the kingdome of God*. PERIOD!
Why is galations there buddy? It`s to warn us of false bretheren...you know...the ones who are able to talk the talk SO good, that you cannot tell what is truly on the inside....heck, I`ll even go so far as to say that wierwille even believed that he was entitled.....It is an invaluable tool given in order to avoid being decieved.....
Had wierwille been a man of the spirit...I`m telling you.....those things would have held no appeal for him....he would have had no oportunity with resisting the temptations....but his actions...the behaviors he himself succumbed to, tell exactly what his inner being was.....he was simply adept at making it appear acceptable when caught.
Think about it....wierwille was the one who TAUGHT you not to examine ones fruit...mislabled it as *thinking evil* silenced us against evil by mislabeling it *lock box*....silenced that voice of God by labeling the disquiet as *senses*
Can you not see that those practicing evil didn`t WANT us aware of our responsibility?
I am sorry...for you to excuse and deny the reality will forever condemn you to live in the darkness of his false doctrine.
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oldiesman
Forever Condemned To Darkness
Take heed, thou who dismiss past evil, thou shalt meet the same fate!
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excathedra
last chance ministry !!!!!! i love it ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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rascal
Back to the thread topic at hand...
A) To renounce wierwilles doctrine is not to be equated with renouncing of the *word*
B) Wierwilles *sins* condemn his as a man of the flesh thus rendering his doctrine (not to mention character and credibility) as untrustworthey.
A + B = C ie...It would be foolish NOT to renounce the (wierwilles) word because of his (wierwilles) sins (fruit)
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oldiesman
Take heed, thou who excuse and deny past evil, thou who still adhere to Wierwilles Doctrine, thou shalt meet the same fate!
Hear the sounds of your eternal condemnation!
Hear It and Take Heed!
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rascal
edited...surmise it to say, our whole difference lies in the fact that
A) Rascal heeds the evidence of fruit in wierwilles life
Vs
B) Oldies who choses to ignore fruit in wierwilles life.
It is easier and more comfortable to ignore the evil....lest you have to confront your own demons and culpability.
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GarthP2000
A quick question:
For those of us who are undoubtedly (as per the Gospel According to Oldies anyway) going to wind up being citizens of **HELL**, .....
will we get to vote?
will it be by hanging chad, or paperless electronic voting machines?
Inquiring minds wanna know.
"Sure I want to go to hell, 'cause thats where all the **HOT** chicks are!"
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alfakat
Is that so, j-boy?? please produce chapter and verse.... you obviously are NOT reading what is written. Here is a quote, in it's entirety:
" .. quote:Originally posted by oldiesman:
quote:But just remember this - Whenever you represent folks as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad/wrong because of his sins - know for a fact that you are misrepresenting and lying about the truth of what is really being said.
Goey, yes, this is how I read what some folks are saying when they talk about the Leaven Principle as it relates to twi. I think you're misstating what the Leaven Principle means and what folks think about it.
Stop the spin Oldies. I was not referring to the intprepretaion of the "Leaven Princple". I said you are dishonest/lying when you represent others as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad because of his sins. Address what I actually say Oldies and not what you twist it to imply.
quote:I think some folks are so angry and disappointed at VPW because of his transgressions, they've thrown out the baby with the bathwater because, as Pat described it, "most of the time, the crap is so integral in the baby so that even though you have thrown out the bath water, you still have a crap filled baby."
I don't think you ever answered me previously about what your baby is. Are you afraid or ashamed to answer. One thing I doubt, is I doubt that your baby is God's Word. I also doubt that is it the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My best guess is that your "baby" is PFAL, the teachings of VPW, and glorification of him as your teacher. This would certainly explain why you whitewash VPW's errors and behavior with all of your "yes buts".
Another thing is prettly clear to me, that is that you have very little knowledge or feel for the scriptures themeselves. You almost never use the Bible/scripture to make a point. Interesting for someone who is concerned about people abandoning "The Word". -- For example, you say I missapplied the "Leaven Principle" yet you offer no Biblical exposition as to why. Why not?
quote
:D-->o you really believe some folks would have the problems they do with twi, had Wierwille lived a devout life? Let's take all the spin away, and answer that one question.
If VPW had lead a devout life, he would not have plagairized Bullinger, Stiles and others. Therefore there would have been no PFAL and therefore no TWI. So the answer is is no.
quote:Some folks may not say outright they believe "everything" about twi was bad, but, they may just as well say it, because that's the way I read their writings.
I see you have now changed "everything in TWI was bad because if VPW sins" to just "everything was bad" - omitting the "because of his sins part". You know that changes the argument don't you - of course you do. It was intentional on your part or very sloppy. So which one is it Oldies?
1. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad. or
2. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad because of VPW sins.
Which one is it Oldies, and who are these "some folks"? Lets have some names and some exmples. Quote what they said and then show how it means either of the above? You can't do it can you? That's why you probably won't even try. Your conscience has been seared.
Oldies, it is dispicable how you intentionally misrepresent people, whitewash sin and evil, and defend the indefensible.
quote: That's why, when I bring up some "good things" about twi-1, why do some folks get so angry and defensive and engage in sarcasm, namecalling and put-downs?
If you were actually trying to bring some balance to the discussion it wouldn't be a problem. But it seems pretty clear your agenda to simply to whitewash the truth and glorify TWI-1 and VPW. IMO, you are spirtually caustic, intellectually dishonest, generally uncaring, and only here to defend VPW and your precious TWI-1. That is why folks engage in sarcasm, and put-downs Oldies.
quote:I think because they don't really care what good happened and don't want to hear any of it because in their mind, it doesn't matter what good existed. To them, the evil is the only thing that has any real meaning.
Oh, I doubt that Oldies. You think in black and white most of the time. You probably think like that because of your extreme bias and adoration of VPW/TWI-1 as viewed through your rose colored glasses. If someone mentions the bad - you presume that they deny the good and feel compelled to point it out. You project your own B & W thinking upon others. You deny the evil for the most part and only really admit the good stuff. So you project the opposite upon others. It does not make for good discussion.
quote:I don't think I am misrepresenting and lying about those who think this way.
Of course you don't. - I am sure you have it all justified in your mind.
quote:It appears obvious to me by the way some people react to what I have to say that this is the way of things.
If I were you, I would think about that statment - it's really pretty ignorant and not even close to the real reason "some" folks react to you the way they do.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Goey, October 18, 2004 21:57
Goey "
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Yeah, I do not really see some agenda to guilt anybody, j-boy. and here is a post just below yours by Just Thinking , in case you were too busy being defrauded and guilty....
""WW,
In this case, I don't mind you throwing me into the fracas. If that's the worst you say about me... :-)
IMO, useless (at best) and harmful (at worst) discussions start with vague questions. OM started with:
"I just don't get it, so I'd like to know if there are any biblical or logical viewpoints out there that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is something God expects of us"
As I pointed out before, the word "bathwater" doesn't actually appear in the KJV Bible. So... we get to try to interpret OM's questions. If done unintentionally, it is just confusing and likely to lead to misunderstandings. If it is done on purpose, it allows the one who poses the question to "reinterpret" what was meant when it is convenient. I stand by what I said at the start of thread:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, one loaded or misleading question or statement after another:
"We learned God's Word in TWI."
First, not everyone agrees with you. Second, "God's Word" is a wayferism that means different things to different people. Does that mean the printed Bible, the Bible as interpreted (or whatever you want to call it) by Vic Weirwille's borrowed material or something else?
"Not everything we were taught is the truth, but what is truth, is truth, and is God's will for us to know and believe. There are some basic truths we learned in twi that are common Christian beliefs."
Here again, I'm sure you believe you learned truth in TWI. For me, I probably got more wrong information than right. It has taken a lot to sift through it and am still going. PJ is right, IMO, that it can be almost impossible to pull out all the weeds because there were so many. As for them being common Christian beliefs, there does not seem to be one other Christian group that agrees with them. Which Christians do you mean exactly?
"And so I wonder why some folks find it wrong that some folks cling on to these truths, even though mindful of sins committed in twi."
I can't speak for others but I personally don't care what you believe or don't.
"I think some folks think we who still believe these truths, should renounce them, because of the evil deeds of some in twi. Are folks like myself being selfish because we refuse to renounce our beliefs?"
Nice trick question. Ask in such a way as to only allow an answer that appears to back you up.
If I say you are selfish:
I would be saying you should give up your beliefs because I say so. Hardly defensible.
If I say you are not selfing:
I appear to be supporting your views.
Very good! You win either way.
"I just don't get it, so I'd like to know if there are any biblical or logical viewpoints out there that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is something God expects of us? That we should renounce our beliefs because of the evils of twi?
I checked my concordance and the word "bath water" does not appear to be in there. Another trick question but not nearly as good as the others. Who is really going to say "I think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater?" They may agree with your view or, as PJ said, feel that there is either no baby there or it is hopelessly intermixed. Regardless, I doubt
anyone has actually said that to you. It is more likely simply your interpretation of their view. If you can point to a response to you where someone has actually recommended that in those words, please do so.""
*******************************************
You might care to quit projecting and actually start READING -- or just go on blabbing, without any connection to the discussion, your choice.
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Catcup
"Wierwille's sex club and his other sins didn't stop God and his word from moving in twi-1."
I beg your pardon.
When that man, whom you so blindly worship and defend, made advances toward a young, innocent, unsuspecting woman in his motorcoach, then LIED TO ME when I asked what happend,
YES, "God and his word" stopped moving in that young woman's life right then and there. She was irreparably damaged. And you can multiply that times however many women he did this to.
How dare you make such ignorant assumptions.
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What The Hay
Why waste all your time looking at VPW? Your better off looking at the fruit in your life rather than his or anybody elses. The context of Galatians is not about examining somebody else's "fruit" or their flesh. It is about "faith which worketh by love", not about justifying the flesh through the works of the law.
Just for the record I saw more of Galatians 5:22,23 in VPW's life than any other minister I ever met. I still have many tapes where he taught God's Word while he was alive, so I know I have a better picture of the man VPW was rather than your (and others) spewing the same old regurgitated venom that primarily came out of the mouth of his critics way back when.
The fruit in VPW's life (not from his critics POV but from actual past records of VPW) shows a completely different picture than what you and others at GSC keep propounding. You all keep sounding like: "Crazy Miranda, lives on propaganda - she believes anything she reads. It could be one side or the other, Free Press or Time Life covers. Follows newsprint anywhere it leads ..." (borrowing from an old Jefferson Starship tune.)
Just because I see a different picture of VPW than what you see (from whatever slanted P.O.V. yours happens to be) that doesn't make me or anyone else an idol worshiper of VPW. I only have a very small (tape) record of the type of person VPW was, not a complete record of his life. But you don't have a complete record on the life of VPW nor does anybody else, so your conclusion of who VPW was is no more conclusive and accurate than mine - or anybody elses for that matter!
To answer the question, was VPW a man of the Spirit? The answer to that question would be both yes and no, not one or the other. The people who insist on a single answer to that question are people who have some "personal agenda" - and whether they want you to be for or against VPW. The only problem with their personal agenda is, it's not the true God's agenda.
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Catcup
I believe when the doctrine has been so poisoned by the behavior of a person this closely attached to it, you lose NOTHING by tossing out the MAN AND THE DOCTRINE.
If the doctrine was correct, and truthful, then it can be corroborated by TRUE INDEPENDENT RESEARCH.
Then the truth is recovered, without being tainted by the poisonous brew of hypocritical practices and harmful mental habit patterns.
Get rid of the old terminology which causes the mind to simply go numbly humming along the same cultic mental ruts and destroys critical thinking.
You will not learn to think for yourself again until those mental habit patterns are shattered.
The truth will stand. Toss it out. Toss it all out.
Then approach the Word with a fresh viewpoint. And do HONEST TO GOD TRUE RESEARCH. If it was real truth, guess what? YOU WILL FIND IT AGAIN, and this time without all the putrid rotting garbage that was wrapped around it.
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rascal
Not according to galations wth...sorry charley.
It says that when people demonstrate the behaviors wierwille did...(repeatedly) ...they are of the flesh and have no inheritance in the kingdome of God....sorry no in between...he was what he chose to be ... damn him.
Catcup, I am so terribly sorry, the account that you spoke of still angers and sickens me....and to think, that senario was repeated so many times with other young girls....... the man had no conscience... as not only did he deny it...he destroyed her credibility... attempted to alienate her family....the despicable pos defamed her unmercifully in order to cover his own bu tt....it was not the only time either.
Nice guy.
This man was just plain seared mentally, as a man of the spirit would not have done what he did...repeatedly.
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oldiesman
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What The Hay
There is an old saying, "Gold is still gold, even in a fools pocket." Do you propose tossing out the gold, or in tossing out the fool?
Better be very careful here. When it comes to anybody completely understanding the truth about God, we are all damn fools.
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CoolWaters
I also happen to know that of the 6 child victims of twi (that I know of), 3 of them want nothing to do with "god", the "bible" or religion at all.
Some witness.
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