Uncle Hairy's Parable, paraphrased with my thoughts:
A man was almost dead in the desert, dying of thirst. Another man walks up to him and gives him a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The man gets his thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave him the water. The man with the water said, sir, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it (PFAL). "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it", the man with the water says. The dying man bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause he was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it.
A short time later, a beautiful maiden was dying of thirst in the desert. A man walks up to her and gives her a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The woman gets her thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave her the water. The man with the water said, maam, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it. "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it." The woman bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause she was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it.
The aforementioned happened thousands of times.
Fast forward 15 years later:
The first man who benefitted for years from drinking the other man's water overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man with the water was, because he raped and beat a woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman...
Suddenly the man who benefitted for years spoke out in defense of the man with the water. He was dumbfounded! He didn't realize that this man had an evil side of him!
How can you defend this brutal abuser? other others said.
The man replied and said...I am dumbfounded and saddened to find out that the man who gave me the water had an evil side to him, however, when I was dying, the man gave me water, and this water has blessed me for years, it was what I needed at the time and has helped me for years after that. The man I knew, the one with the water, wasn't the man you're talking about.
The others say to him, "hey j@ckfoot, you calling us liars?"
"No", the man replied, "but I experienced something different that what you're talking about, and saw with my eyes many others who had the same experience as myself." "Does that count for anything"?
"Well", the others said, "anything good that you and others experienced means nothing, what means anything are this man's evil deeds, and that's all that matters, you whitewashing sob."
"Well", the others said, "what you and others experienced means nothing, what means anything are this man's evil deeds, and that's all that matters, you whitewashing sob."
NOW you get it, om!!!
UH's parable SHOULD have included that the guy with the water didn't OWN the well - he stole it.
Actually, om, YOU are the one who keeps saying that those who have experiences different than yours are the ones that are wrong and that all of those experiences are irrelevant.
Let's see if I can do this without resorting to another parable...
Oldies' original question, "Should people renounce their beliefs because of other people's (i.e.,the teacher's) sins," has devolved into two: "Were you positively impacted by what you learned (doctrine, if not practice) in TWI?" and "Was VPW an a-hole?" It's quite possible, of course, to answer Yes to both questions. I think I would agree with Oakspear's comment "The sins themselves did not invalidate anything he taught, but they provided an impetus to look at them a little more closely. Wierwille's sins did not make his teaching void in my mind, but they did cause me to reject taking his word on anything. If it was truth I'd find out through another source, not just because VP said so."
Oldies, just a thought... instead of telling some of the other posters to "get over it," you might try asking some of them how you could help them "overcome it."
well it becomes ugly when the man who enjoyed his purchased drink of water unmolested...accused the woman who had been beaten and raped of lying....also when he accused the other people who stopped at the well to purchase life giving water who were robbed in one form or another of exagerating and lying....it would be dispicable to minimalise the mans sins by attempted assisination of the victims characters, simply because one enjoyed the drink of water purchased from a stolen well.
Not only was the water stolen but it also had salt added to "hook" the buyer. Just taking PFAL was NEVER preesented as an option. Nope, you got swarmed immediately to buy the next one.
Your whitewashing and denial of evil does God a disservice. We can all see through your pretended inability to understand others' positions (nobody is that stupid). You have learned well the lessons of your idol.
Oldies, I'm sure you were missing my erudite take on the subject. You were, weren't you? Well, it's all been said, better than I can (there goes erudite, down the rat-hole), so carry on one & all.
Remember, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump...
quote:The Leaven Principle speaks of the fact that a little bit of one thing, though mixed with a much larger amount of something else, changes the nature of the whole. A little bit of bad mixed with a lot of good tends to make the whole thing bad.
Examples: a little bit of sin allowed to exist in the church makes the whole church unholy before God; a little bit of heresy mixed in with true doctrine makes one a false teacher.
OM, don't you see that vpw, lcm, dm, et al, their teachings and their doctrines were/are the leaven?
Maybe you don't get that point by reading just the first few verses of I Corinthians 5.
But dang, dude! Practice what you preach and read the whole context!
Then you will know that the head of the body of twi is leaven...and can only make a leavened lump.
quote:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
--I Corinthians 5:6-13 (KJV)
Not only were/are twi "leaders" leaven, they were/are false prophets, false teachers, liars, and manifested/manifest at least 15 of the 16 works of the flesh recorded in Galatians!
quote:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
--Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
TWI was, is and always will be an organization built upon the workings of the flesh as defined in Galatians.
Therefore, if one wants to consider the whole context, then twi, its teachings and its doctrines can be seen only as "a little leaven".
To think anything else about twi, its teachings and its doctrines is to ignore a vast majority of the bible itself.
But that's what twi taught you...all of us...to do...so it should not come as a surprise to me that there are extwi folks who still practice this willfull ignorance.
Yes, any BOD member could do that. LCM always said that the logical heart felt proper response to God's love and grace is to serve Him, meaning, go WOW, go Corps, and everything else they wanted to guilt us into doing.
Aren't you guys doing exactly the same thing? You believe that the logical heart felt proper response to finding out VPs sins is to shun TWI and everything about them past present and future. Since Oldies won't do it, he's a "cop out" isn't he?
It wasn't "vpw's sins" that I "found out" that caused me to shun twi and all that twi is, was or ever will be.
It was the organized coverup of crimes that twi practiced.
My personal experience with twi isn't just one of little boo-boos and doctrinal differences.
I eye-witnessed horrific child abuse.
My daughter was molested and then blamed for being molested.
My son was marked as a 'child of satan' before he was born.
These things were done by the hands of twi members and twi leadership.
TWI leadership, including vpw, mrs vpw, lcm, dm and every limb coordinator in the US, were made fully aware of these things via letters I hand wrote and mailed out certified mail at my own expense.
Instead of doing what anybody with half a mind and less 'understanding of the word' would have done by removing the culprits from any authority over children, twi instead chose to hide the problem by moving around limb leaders and victims so that nobody could be found when it came time for court.
If you think that an organized crime ring isn't to be shunned forever and ever, then have a blast with your life...'cause somebody else will if you don't.
Sheesh!
You'd think we were talking about an organization that was just a little odd.
Yes, any BOD member could do that. LCM always said that the logical heart felt proper response to God's love and grace is to serve Him, meaning, go WOW, go Corps, and everything else they wanted to guilt us into doing.
Aren't you guys doing exactly the same thing? You believe that the logical heart felt proper response to finding out VPs sins is to shun TWI and everything about them past present and future. Since Oldies won't do it, he's a "cop out" isn't he?
there are far worse things one might do in this life than your take on "you guys" suggestion, j-am... far worse. If, in the final analysis, some here are harsh in their "present", temporal judgement, I guess that is just the way it goes... far superior to unbridled, unrepentant, hard-hearted, hard-core, not as seen among supposed "infidels", SIN--, which is to say, REJECTION of the very GOD they claim so loudly and proudly to serve, morning, noon, night and day... or perhaps you have forgotten vics thunderings from the pulpit??? hypocrisy is a very hard thing to swallow from those claiming to teach you their unique, hidden since the foist century style enlightenment..., for a minimum level of donation, to boot...
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ex70sHouston
I my be some dumb Southern Baptist. But I still check every teaching out against what I've learned.
Ya know GA. It may be simple but it works.
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oldiesman
Uncle Hairy's Parable, paraphrased with my thoughts:
A man was almost dead in the desert, dying of thirst. Another man walks up to him and gives him a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The man gets his thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave him the water. The man with the water said, sir, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it (PFAL). "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it", the man with the water says. The dying man bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause he was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it.
A short time later, a beautiful maiden was dying of thirst in the desert. A man walks up to her and gives her a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The woman gets her thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave her the water. The man with the water said, maam, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it. "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it." The woman bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause she was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it.
The aforementioned happened thousands of times.
Fast forward 15 years later:
The first man who benefitted for years from drinking the other man's water overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man with the water was, because he raped and beat a woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman...
Suddenly the man who benefitted for years spoke out in defense of the man with the water. He was dumbfounded! He didn't realize that this man had an evil side of him!
How can you defend this brutal abuser? other others said.
The man replied and said...I am dumbfounded and saddened to find out that the man who gave me the water had an evil side to him, however, when I was dying, the man gave me water, and this water has blessed me for years, it was what I needed at the time and has helped me for years after that. The man I knew, the one with the water, wasn't the man you're talking about.
The others say to him, "hey j@ckfoot, you calling us liars?"
"No", the man replied, "but I experienced something different that what you're talking about, and saw with my eyes many others who had the same experience as myself." "Does that count for anything"?
"Well", the others said, "anything good that you and others experienced means nothing, what means anything are this man's evil deeds, and that's all that matters, you whitewashing sob."
End of parable.
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Steve!
NOW you get it, om!!!
UH's parable SHOULD have included that the guy with the water didn't OWN the well - he stole it.
Actually, om, YOU are the one who keeps saying that those who have experiences different than yours are the ones that are wrong and that all of those experiences are irrelevant.
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CoolWaters
OM,
Your interpretation of OH's parable would be acceptable...
If you hadn't so often equated the water to the man...and tried to make others feel stupid for not doing so.
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CoolWaters
PS to Steve!
I'm really not following you around...honest!
:D-->
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GeorgeStGeorge
Let's see if I can do this without resorting to another parable...
Oldies' original question, "Should people renounce their beliefs because of other people's (i.e.,the teacher's) sins," has devolved into two: "Were you positively impacted by what you learned (doctrine, if not practice) in TWI?" and "Was VPW an a-hole?" It's quite possible, of course, to answer Yes to both questions. I think I would agree with Oakspear's comment "The sins themselves did not invalidate anything he taught, but they provided an impetus to look at them a little more closely. Wierwille's sins did not make his teaching void in my mind, but they did cause me to reject taking his word on anything. If it was truth I'd find out through another source, not just because VP said so."
Oldies, just a thought... instead of telling some of the other posters to "get over it," you might try asking some of them how you could help them "overcome it."
George
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GeorgeStGeorge
Prov. 10:22
George
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rascal
well it becomes ugly when the man who enjoyed his purchased drink of water unmolested...accused the woman who had been beaten and raped of lying....also when he accused the other people who stopped at the well to purchase life giving water who were robbed in one form or another of exagerating and lying....it would be dispicable to minimalise the mans sins by attempted assisination of the victims characters, simply because one enjoyed the drink of water purchased from a stolen well.
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JustThinking
Not only was the water stolen but it also had salt added to "hook" the buyer. Just taking PFAL was NEVER preesented as an option. Nope, you got swarmed immediately to buy the next one.
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Oakspear
Oldiesman:
Your whitewashing and denial of evil does God a disservice. We can all see through your pretended inability to understand others' positions (nobody is that stupid). You have learned well the lessons of your idol.
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TheEvan
Oldies, I'm sure you were missing my erudite take on the subject. You were, weren't you? Well, it's all been said, better than I can (there goes erudite, down the rat-hole), so carry on one & all.
Remember, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump...
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excathedra
i was curious, i found this on the internet
link:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/6111...ikos/leaven.htm
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Danny
Ms ex I don't like that part of the worrrrrd. Just give me the lovey parts. I got mine who cares about what happened to you.
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oldiesman
I believe some of you might be misinterpreting the verses about leaven to mean that a little bad makes the whole thing bad. Some examples:
My job is sometimes hell, therefore everything about my job is bad because of a little hell.
My apartment is cold, therefore everything about my apartment is bad because the heater is malfunctioning.
My cat is sick, therefore everything about my relationship with my cat is bad cause he's sick.
My butt aches after driving over 100 consecutive miles on my motorcycle, therefore everything about my motorcycle experience is bad.
Thomas Jefferson had slaves, therefore everything about his life is bad cause he had slaves.
Mozart had sexual perversions, so that makes everything he did bad cause of his perversions.
Wierwille committed disgusting sins at various points in his life, therefore everything about his life and teachings are bad ...
Nah, I don't believe it.
But I do believe the verses about leaven in context are talking about present tense removing those who cause trouble in the church.
That's the way I read it in the context.
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excathedra
i don't really care
:)-->
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CoolWaters
OM, don't you see that vpw, lcm, dm, et al, their teachings and their doctrines were/are the leaven?
Maybe you don't get that point by reading just the first few verses of I Corinthians 5.
But dang, dude! Practice what you preach and read the whole context!
Then you will know that the head of the body of twi is leaven...and can only make a leavened lump.
Not only were/are twi "leaders" leaven, they were/are false prophets, false teachers, liars, and manifested/manifest at least 15 of the 16 works of the flesh recorded in Galatians!
TWI was, is and always will be an organization built upon the workings of the flesh as defined in Galatians.
Therefore, if one wants to consider the whole context, then twi, its teachings and its doctrines can be seen only as "a little leaven".
To think anything else about twi, its teachings and its doctrines is to ignore a vast majority of the bible itself.
But that's what twi taught you...all of us...to do...so it should not come as a surprise to me that there are extwi folks who still practice this willfull ignorance.
Sigh.
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def59
Here's the same verses in a more modern translation
Living by the Spirits Power
16So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then
you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17The old sinful nature
loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And
the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature
desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your
choices are never free from this conflict. 18But when you are directed by the
Holy Spirit, you are no longer subject to the law.
19When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce
these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful
pleasure, 20idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling,
jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that
everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, 21envy,
drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I
have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of
God.
22But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit
in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of
their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25If we are living
now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of
our lives. 26Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be
jealous of one another.
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johniam
Yes, any BOD member could do that. LCM always said that the logical heart felt proper response to God's love and grace is to serve Him, meaning, go WOW, go Corps, and everything else they wanted to guilt us into doing.
Aren't you guys doing exactly the same thing? You believe that the logical heart felt proper response to finding out VPs sins is to shun TWI and everything about them past present and future. Since Oldies won't do it, he's a "cop out" isn't he?
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CoolWaters
johniam,
I'm not calling OM a "cop out".
I am advocating that people steer far clear of twi.
OM asked for a discussion on this, so he's getting one.
If you don't think that's fair, oh well...I don't know how to help you.
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CoolWaters
And, johniam, FYI...
It wasn't "vpw's sins" that I "found out" that caused me to shun twi and all that twi is, was or ever will be.
It was the organized coverup of crimes that twi practiced.
My personal experience with twi isn't just one of little boo-boos and doctrinal differences.
I eye-witnessed horrific child abuse.
My daughter was molested and then blamed for being molested.
My son was marked as a 'child of satan' before he was born.
These things were done by the hands of twi members and twi leadership.
TWI leadership, including vpw, mrs vpw, lcm, dm and every limb coordinator in the US, were made fully aware of these things via letters I hand wrote and mailed out certified mail at my own expense.
Instead of doing what anybody with half a mind and less 'understanding of the word' would have done by removing the culprits from any authority over children, twi instead chose to hide the problem by moving around limb leaders and victims so that nobody could be found when it came time for court.
If you think that an organized crime ring isn't to be shunned forever and ever, then have a blast with your life...'cause somebody else will if you don't.
Sheesh!
You'd think we were talking about an organization that was just a little odd.
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AHAT
CW,
I'm very sorry.
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oldiesman
Thanks for the support, Johniam.
:)-->
"Let us not irritate one another"
Wow that's impossible in a lively debate forum.
;)-->
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alfakat
there are far worse things one might do in this life than your take on "you guys" suggestion, j-am... far worse. If, in the final analysis, some here are harsh in their "present", temporal judgement, I guess that is just the way it goes... far superior to unbridled, unrepentant, hard-hearted, hard-core, not as seen among supposed "infidels", SIN--, which is to say, REJECTION of the very GOD they claim so loudly and proudly to serve, morning, noon, night and day... or perhaps you have forgotten vics thunderings from the pulpit??? hypocrisy is a very hard thing to swallow from those claiming to teach you their unique, hidden since the foist century style enlightenment..., for a minimum level of donation, to boot...
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JustThinking
Great example, OM, thank you.
TWI taught that Solomon's lifestyle ultimately brought down Israel. Your choice was perfect!
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