I went to see the movie tonight, and there were so many details crammed in there that I will have to watch it again. :D-->
Things that made me go "whoa":
The revelation that much of what the "rebels" thought were their own operations was part of the Matrix's control mechanism; like the Oracle turning out to be a program, and "The One" being a predictable side effect of the Matrix itself, the sixth in a series of "Ones". Ghosts, aliens and vampires being simply programs that were not doing what they were supposed to do.
There were a couple of places where I wasn't sure if characters were humans or programs, but in most cases decided they were programs (like the french guy and his wife, and the dreadlocked albino twins).
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
quote: much of what the "rebels" thought were their own operations was part of the Matrix's control mechanism; like the Oracle turning out to be a program, and "The One" being a predictable side effect of the Matrix itself
I don't know, Oak. Like you, I will have to see it again, but I'm not sure it would be correct to call those things part of the Matrix's control mechanism - the operant word being control.
In the first Matrix, there were obviously distinct categories. There were the controllers, the controlled, and the freed. But in the reload, I think the categories are starting to overlap.
For example, I'm not sure that the Oracle is a controlling entity. I'm not even sure that she is what the man in the white coat - the self-professed designer of the Matirix claims she is, not that he is all that he claims himself to be. The oracle doesn't seem to be a directly planned entity at all, but an inevitable, necessarily independant entity in a complex mechanical, yet organically evolving matrix. Some program has to be around whose sole objective purpose is to try to foresee future developments. And, as I said, to do its job well, such an entity would have to be objective (non-partisan).
You can't take as gospel everything that the man in the white coat said. He is not infallible. After all, didn't he say that if oiur hero shose the door to try to save the girl that he would be too late to save her anyway. Okay, technically she died, but still the "designer" seems definitely to have his own agenda and not to be trusted.
Another example of the blending of people and machines is the one who keeps duplicating himself. Something happened to him in the first movie when he was entered into by a human at the end of the movie. He was freed from the controlling matrix entities and took on some human characteristics.
Finally, and this might be stretching it (Dang it, where's the Oracle when you need her), but at the end of reloaded... Okay, let me back up here & get a running start.
All the freed people developed remarkable abilities by the use of their believing minds with the help of machines - computer programs. The One even became better at it than the computer entities themselves while he was plugged into the Matrix. He might not be becoming a machine, but he is definitely showing what were heretofor abilites only manifested by computer generated entities - AND he learned them through their tutilage.
Now, at the end of reloaded, he these abilities start to overflow into the real world. He senses the machines coming adn stops them with power energized from his believing mind the same way he once knew how to do it only within the computer generated matrix.
He is evolving to be able to do in the real world what once only computer machine generated entities could do only in a computer generated matrix - and beyond.
I think we have to say that we can no longer look at the matrix as a borg like collection of uniform entities (without any trace of futile resistance and consistently antihuman).
The matrix has anomilies. The more comlex it becomes, the more anomilies it has; thereby, exponentially opening up the number of possibilities in its evolution - an further increasing its comlexity.
I think the "designer" will be surprised, and humans and machines will evolve into an integrated organic system with a vast and comlex network of communication and information across all boundries energizing the life of the system.
This picture fits with Quantum theory, and related theories of chaos and complexity that are currently working their way into all the physical and social sciences.
The man in the white coat, while advanced, is still somewhat of a throwback to the type of thinking that started with Newton and saturated our philosophy, business, and everyday thinking in the industrial age. He will be bypassed as the system evolves beyond his vision.
I'm not sure who the hell the guy in the white coat really is, but I betcha the story basicaly develops the way I've said. Wanna bet, wanna bet?
Hey, if you want to read an exciting, easily read book that deals with the application of Quantum theory to computer generated organic multiprogram biosystems, read Michael Crichton's latest best seller, "Prey." He even starts the book with a convincing four or five page little research paper complete with the names of very current and respected scientists that does a convincing job of showing that these realities are on our near horizon. Specifically, he avers that by (I think it is 2050 or sooner), if we don't put safeguards in place now, our technilogical advancement in these related areas will grow past our ability to control it.
I didn't intend to say all this. I have to go be normal now :)-->
Of course, the "man" in the white coat had to be a program himself, didn't he?
If this is the 6th iteration of "the one", then it would follow that it took 6 generations of humans to get there, because each time "the one" came along, the matrix was "reloaded", and Zion was destroyed, only to be rebuilt.
If he was a man, then he looks pretty good for being at least 140 years old, doesn't he?
Sorry guys, but I didn't like this movie much. There HAD to be a better way to communicate the information we needed to know without the long-drawn-out, mind-numbingly-boring dialog.
The fight scenes were a bit redundant too...look, we can be motionless when we're fighting...look, we can be motionless when we're fighting....look, we can be motionless when we're fighting.
I loved the first Matrix...but this one put me to sleep...literally...it was the first time I've fallen asleep in a movie theatre.
And they are gonna CONTINUE it????
Might I suggest effective script writers and more imaginative choreographers?????
I don't think that they were independent in their goals, maybe in their methods, since they did succeed in maneuvering Neo and the others to be just where the Architect wanted them to be.
What about that scene at the end where Neo destroys the sentinels with a wave of his hand? How can he do that? All previous hocus pocus was explained as an individual manipulating their projected mind and body within the Matrix. Well, in that scene they weren't in the Matrix!
They also didn't give us much on the "traitor" either. Just the one scene with the knife (why was he cutting parrallel gashes in his palm?) and when he was on the sick bay table at the end. His name was "Bane" wasn't it? Bane as in "Cause of death or destruction"?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Everything that we saw Neo dream came true, right. What about the dream scene that showed Agent Smith converting one of the freed-hacker-Zion guys and then answering the phone and entering Neo's world? Just a dream? I think not. That guy was the same guy cutting his hand an dthe same guy on the table at the end. I think he is sort of possessed or has the smith virus or something but he is smith in the "real world".
But is it the real world? Neo uses his power to stop the sentinals like he does in the matrix. Smith is a computer program that has hacked into someone in the Real.
I think the "real" is another matrix.
Maybe this is why there is no choice. Because in reality they are just programs.
Better yet they are computer viruses, like Smith said in the first movie, "your a virus", spreading from one matrix to another. An alternate universe hijacking another, quantum leaping.
Maybe I am wrong and if I am, my way would be much more intersting. At least I think so :P-->
Also, I said this on the other thread, the oracle oly tells you what you need to know (remember the first movie?) not necessarily the truth. Maybe she is something else, not a program or human.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't PFAL. Doo-wat doo-wah doo-wat doo-wah la-shanta la-shanta
Smith said Neo "freed" him. If Neo were a virus and he jumped into smith and freed/corrupted him and now smith can corrupt his own people maybe I am right and Neo is a virus from another matrix.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't PFAL. Doo-wat doo-wah doo-wat doo-wah la-shanta la-shanta
Sounds good, lindy - a matrix within a matrix. I presented my interpretation to some of my 11th grade Matrix fans last school year, & three of them came up with that idea. It has possibilites.
Again, I think the Oracle has to be an independent program, though designed by the architect, to be able to produce unbiased predictions.
Wordwolf, - comprehensive powers of observation on the different character types, Wierwolves & such.
Saw this movie for the first time this evening, on dvd. Interestingly, my daughter also picked up an Anime dvd called "Hack/Sign", in which all the drama and action are played out by people entering into a computer generated world. The plotlines of both dvds really do reverberate that of the ancient "Tron".
The second Matrix offering comes off as humorously self-indulgent. I almost broke out laughing as the "Architect" rambled endlessly on and on and on, wondering if Kenau the actor was actually able to follow him. The scene of the tribal-like, primitive drum-beat filled celebration in the underground city of Zion earlier in the film was also rather campy and bizarre. And was that disco music I heard accompanying the fight scenes?
This movie certainly feels different from the first one. The simplicity and directness of the first movie has seemingly developed and given way to something of a religion in this second entry, with even the three main characters resembling priests in their long, stylish robes.
The movie is nonetheless great eye candy.
I'm a sucker -I know I won't be able to resist the 3rd installment.
I saw revolutions last week... I think the only reason it was "OK" was because I saw it in IMAX... still think they're just milking the whole thing since the original but this one is better than the second...
...and now... they are all set up to do ... MATRIX RESURRECTION!!!! Just you wait and see!
there's more money to be made off this!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Oakspear
I went to see the movie tonight, and there were so many details crammed in there that I will have to watch it again.
:D-->
Things that made me go "whoa":
The revelation that much of what the "rebels" thought were their own operations was part of the Matrix's control mechanism; like the Oracle turning out to be a program, and "The One" being a predictable side effect of the Matrix itself, the sixth in a series of "Ones". Ghosts, aliens and vampires being simply programs that were not doing what they were supposed to do.
There were a couple of places where I wasn't sure if characters were humans or programs, but in most cases decided they were programs (like the french guy and his wife, and the dreadlocked albino twins).
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Tom
I don't know, Oak. Like you, I will have to see it again, but I'm not sure it would be correct to call those things part of the Matrix's control mechanism - the operant word being control.
In the first Matrix, there were obviously distinct categories. There were the controllers, the controlled, and the freed. But in the reload, I think the categories are starting to overlap.
For example, I'm not sure that the Oracle is a controlling entity. I'm not even sure that she is what the man in the white coat - the self-professed designer of the Matirix claims she is, not that he is all that he claims himself to be. The oracle doesn't seem to be a directly planned entity at all, but an inevitable, necessarily independant entity in a complex mechanical, yet organically evolving matrix. Some program has to be around whose sole objective purpose is to try to foresee future developments. And, as I said, to do its job well, such an entity would have to be objective (non-partisan).
You can't take as gospel everything that the man in the white coat said. He is not infallible. After all, didn't he say that if oiur hero shose the door to try to save the girl that he would be too late to save her anyway. Okay, technically she died, but still the "designer" seems definitely to have his own agenda and not to be trusted.
Another example of the blending of people and machines is the one who keeps duplicating himself. Something happened to him in the first movie when he was entered into by a human at the end of the movie. He was freed from the controlling matrix entities and took on some human characteristics.
Finally, and this might be stretching it (Dang it, where's the Oracle when you need her), but at the end of reloaded... Okay, let me back up here & get a running start.
All the freed people developed remarkable abilities by the use of their believing minds with the help of machines - computer programs. The One even became better at it than the computer entities themselves while he was plugged into the Matrix. He might not be becoming a machine, but he is definitely showing what were heretofor abilites only manifested by computer generated entities - AND he learned them through their tutilage.
Now, at the end of reloaded, he these abilities start to overflow into the real world. He senses the machines coming adn stops them with power energized from his believing mind the same way he once knew how to do it only within the computer generated matrix.
He is evolving to be able to do in the real world what once only computer machine generated entities could do only in a computer generated matrix - and beyond.
I think we have to say that we can no longer look at the matrix as a borg like collection of uniform entities (without any trace of futile resistance and consistently antihuman).
The matrix has anomilies. The more comlex it becomes, the more anomilies it has; thereby, exponentially opening up the number of possibilities in its evolution - an further increasing its comlexity.
I think the "designer" will be surprised, and humans and machines will evolve into an integrated organic system with a vast and comlex network of communication and information across all boundries energizing the life of the system.
This picture fits with Quantum theory, and related theories of chaos and complexity that are currently working their way into all the physical and social sciences.
The man in the white coat, while advanced, is still somewhat of a throwback to the type of thinking that started with Newton and saturated our philosophy, business, and everyday thinking in the industrial age. He will be bypassed as the system evolves beyond his vision.
I'm not sure who the hell the guy in the white coat really is, but I betcha the story basicaly develops the way I've said. Wanna bet, wanna bet?
Hey, if you want to read an exciting, easily read book that deals with the application of Quantum theory to computer generated organic multiprogram biosystems, read Michael Crichton's latest best seller, "Prey." He even starts the book with a convincing four or five page little research paper complete with the names of very current and respected scientists that does a convincing job of showing that these realities are on our near horizon. Specifically, he avers that by (I think it is 2050 or sooner), if we don't put safeguards in place now, our technilogical advancement in these related areas will grow past our ability to control it.
I didn't intend to say all this. I have to go be normal now
:)-->
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Steve!
Of course, the "man" in the white coat had to be a program himself, didn't he?
If this is the 6th iteration of "the one", then it would follow that it took 6 generations of humans to get there, because each time "the one" came along, the matrix was "reloaded", and Zion was destroyed, only to be rebuilt.
If he was a man, then he looks pretty good for being at least 140 years old, doesn't he?
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Cindy!
Sorry guys, but I didn't like this movie much. There HAD to be a better way to communicate the information we needed to know without the long-drawn-out, mind-numbingly-boring dialog.
The fight scenes were a bit redundant too...look, we can be motionless when we're fighting...look, we can be motionless when we're fighting....look, we can be motionless when we're fighting.
I loved the first Matrix...but this one put me to sleep...literally...it was the first time I've fallen asleep in a movie theatre.
And they are gonna CONTINUE it????
Might I suggest effective script writers and more imaginative choreographers?????
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Steve!
I agree, they could have made their points a lot more effectively and a lot more quickly than they did.
"It's not about choice. It's not about choice. It's not about choice. It's not about choice."
Okay, okay, don't beat me over the head with it!
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Cindy!
Movie wasn't good...but the company was EXCELLENT, Stevey!!!!!!!
tmd
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WordWolf
Exactly.
I figure "the Architect" (white lab coat guy)
was lying thru his teeth.
As you pointed out, he was already wrong.
He has proved unable to accurately predict
Neo's actions in the rest of the movie.
My prediction for Part 3?
Neo and that traitor, in taction with the
Matrix at the nexus point of the master control
program, fighting it out for whose vision will
determine the destiny of the matrix.
Yes, as I saw it, the other mentioned were
all programs. That includes the Merovingian
and Persephone (the guy in the restaurant and
his 'wife'), and their minions. Somebody HAD
already pointed out that previous programs
were the origin of legends like vampires,
werewolves, and ghosts. (I think it was Smith.)
BTW, Smith seems to have some basic upgrades
besides the 'virus' ability, doesn't he?
Anybody else caught the "bowling" sound during
that cool fight scene with 100 Smiths?
Ok, back to the "legends". Persephone points
out the Keymaker's guards were unreliable, but
hard to destroy. "After all, who carries
silver bullets?" (That is, they were werewolves.
Slow-reacting werewolves, at that, with lousy,
un-wolflike instincts.) We also see those
2 albinos turn insubstantial and pass thru
things like some sort of spectre. (That is,
they were ghosts.)
I think the Oracle and Keymaker, among others,
are free programs NOT under the auspices nor
the agenda of the main control program.
(Like Tron in the movie "Tron".)
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Oakspear
Wolf:
I don't think that they were independent in their goals, maybe in their methods, since they did succeed in maneuvering Neo and the others to be just where the Architect wanted them to be.
What about that scene at the end where Neo destroys the sentinels with a wave of his hand? How can he do that? All previous hocus pocus was explained as an individual manipulating their projected mind and body within the Matrix. Well, in that scene they weren't in the Matrix!
They also didn't give us much on the "traitor" either. Just the one scene with the knife (why was he cutting parrallel gashes in his palm?) and when he was on the sick bay table at the end. His name was "Bane" wasn't it? Bane as in "Cause of death or destruction"?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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lindyhopper
I will have to see it again but here is my take.
Everything that we saw Neo dream came true, right. What about the dream scene that showed Agent Smith converting one of the freed-hacker-Zion guys and then answering the phone and entering Neo's world? Just a dream? I think not. That guy was the same guy cutting his hand an dthe same guy on the table at the end. I think he is sort of possessed or has the smith virus or something but he is smith in the "real world".
But is it the real world? Neo uses his power to stop the sentinals like he does in the matrix. Smith is a computer program that has hacked into someone in the Real.
I think the "real" is another matrix.
Maybe this is why there is no choice. Because in reality they are just programs.
Better yet they are computer viruses, like Smith said in the first movie, "your a virus", spreading from one matrix to another. An alternate universe hijacking another, quantum leaping.
Maybe I am wrong and if I am, my way would be much more intersting. At least I think so
:P-->
Also, I said this on the other thread, the oracle oly tells you what you need to know (remember the first movie?) not necessarily the truth. Maybe she is something else, not a program or human.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't PFAL. Doo-wat doo-wah doo-wat doo-wah la-shanta la-shanta
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lindyhopper
Another think,
Smith said Neo "freed" him. If Neo were a virus and he jumped into smith and freed/corrupted him and now smith can corrupt his own people maybe I am right and Neo is a virus from another matrix.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't PFAL. Doo-wat doo-wah doo-wat doo-wah la-shanta la-shanta
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Tom
Sounds good, lindy - a matrix within a matrix. I presented my interpretation to some of my 11th grade Matrix fans last school year, & three of them came up with that idea. It has possibilites.
Again, I think the Oracle has to be an independent program, though designed by the architect, to be able to produce unbiased predictions.
Wordwolf, - comprehensive powers of observation on the different character types, Wierwolves & such.
Tom
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Zixar
Not to worry. In Matrix Revolutions the most powerful character will set the world a-right again. Tron! "Hail program!"
:D-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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TheInvisibleDan
Saw this movie for the first time this evening, on dvd. Interestingly, my daughter also picked up an Anime dvd called "Hack/Sign", in which all the drama and action are played out by people entering into a computer generated world. The plotlines of both dvds really do reverberate that of the ancient "Tron".
The second Matrix offering comes off as humorously self-indulgent. I almost broke out laughing as the "Architect" rambled endlessly on and on and on, wondering if Kenau the actor was actually able to follow him. The scene of the tribal-like, primitive drum-beat filled celebration in the underground city of Zion earlier in the film was also rather campy and bizarre. And was that disco music I heard accompanying the fight scenes?
This movie certainly feels different from the first one. The simplicity and directness of the first movie has seemingly developed and given way to something of a religion in this second entry, with even the three main characters resembling priests in their long, stylish robes.
The movie is nonetheless great eye candy.
I'm a sucker -I know I won't be able to resist the 3rd installment.
Danny
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Raf
Finally saw it tonight.
This movie is UNWATCHABLE. It SUCKS. There's nothing interesting about it, and the eye candy factor vanishes right after the title frame. YAWN!
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Zixar
Raf: The third one redeems it--slightly. But only if you look at it as a standalone action flick.
Secret Signature of the Day==v
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Tom Strange
I saw revolutions last week... I think the only reason it was "OK" was because I saw it in IMAX... still think they're just milking the whole thing since the original but this one is better than the second...
...and now... they are all set up to do ... MATRIX RESURRECTION!!!! Just you wait and see!
there's more money to be made off this!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Zixar
Followed by "Matrix vs. Predator"
:D-->
Secret Signature of the Day==v
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Raf
Ok, I gave it another try and, I'll admit, it is watchable. It just seemed like they were trying to hard and forgot to have fun.
I'll go to the theater to see the next movie, which I believe is called "The Matrix: Craptacular Crapfest of Crappy Crap."
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