Twi nostalgia vs Twi reality...I've actually heard old junkies speaking nostalgically of the good old days when the heroin they cooked up was pure...I suppose there will always be those who refuse to leave their dream world.
UncleHairy, your closing statement on that other thread (VP & Craig) was a classic! Thanks.
quote:To rephrase a statement from the old Vickster himself..."You tell me what you think of Victor Paul Wierwille, and I'll tell you how far you have come in your cult recovery".
Interesting points, Sky. I seldom use the word nostalgia in relation to what I discuss about the Way because it implies a longing for something past, a pining for it if you will. "Oh they were good days and I wish they would come back and it could be like that right now."
On Waydale I started a thread once where the topic was a spin off of why the Way has shrunk so in numbers and so many people have left. My observation to make was that for my part, there were a lot of great people and experiences in the Way years that I was involved and that good people are a huge asset. Really, a no-brainer. That component of some very unique and caring people was one of the things that was integral to the Way's growth. That component was denigrated and diminished by Way leaders more and more because they stupidly assumed that it was the biblical teaching and knowledge alone that had real value. The value of the real, living, breathing people was relegated to the least important. "It's the word of God that endures, not people!!!" all of that attitude.
The results speak for themselves. Treat people like trash and they'll stop coming. Eventually you end up with a population whose values are, in a word, non-human. And proud of it.
Posting that with examples as I did caused some posters to wag their heads in disgust at the sorry "nostaglia" for the good old days. "Sad sad, so sad".
Which completely misses the point. My life is made up of a huge library of experiences, people, events, education, etc. etc. The fact that I was in the Way for a period can't be changed now, and everything adds to that library of experiences I've lived, good or bad. It accumulates whether I like it or not. The things I've done and learned include good and bad, it's really simple.
I'm guess I'm about out of steam on these GS discussions as I think about it. It happens about once a year and it's amazing to me that since Waydale it's been a few. Sooner of later if I stop I'll have fonder memories of it later. Not that I'll be nostalgic for it of course. :D-->
quote:My life is made up of a huge library of experiences, people, events, education, etc. etc. The fact that I was in the Way for a period can't be changed now, and everything adds to that library of experiences I've lived, good or bad. It accumulates whether I like it or not. The things I've done and learned include good and bad, it's really simple.
I hear what you're saying. Throughout my twi experience.....it was always the real, living, working people that added to special "snapshots" into my "photo album." The list is long.......people on the field, wows, corps, staff. All kinds of unique people are catalogued into some very special moments of my past. THOSE are my favorite snapshots!
Spending time with spirit-filled believers was thrilling....not looking to score browny points with twi leadership.
Working alongside staff/corps, at times, were some of the greatest moments in my twi tenure!
BUT......vpw's legalistic agendas trashed the work and reputation of good men and women alike. As you stated, "It's the Word of God that endures, not people!" was used as a sledgehammer to drive us into nothingness. Either vpw had a sadistic mean-streak to oppress his followers or he was foolish in propounding his out-of-contexts statements at the expense of those who helped to build this ministry.
The legalism mounted with each year. The arrogance mounted with each statement. The abuses mounted with each new corps location. Lording over God's heritage was rampant.
Couldn't vpw spiritually SEE what he was doing? Couldn't the board of trustees stop wierwille's pride and arrogance from blinding his way? Had all of the "top leaders" succombed to vpw adulation? Vpw idolatry?
Even today......"vpw worshippers" come here to GS and put him on a pedestal. They STILL don't get it! These vpw apologists seem to be blinded to the One Body of Christ with members in particular.
The cancerous worshipping of man is well documented in the Bible. When some take a Bible class.....they see the True and Living Way, the Christ. Others see the preacher.
I keep snapshots in my photo album of special people......NOT the roa tent or the brc.
quote:The cancerous worshipping of man is well documented in the Bible. When some take a Bible class.....they see the True and Living Way, the Christ. Others see the preacher.
If some folks would quit focusing endlessly on Wierwille's sins and dirty laundry, maybe the focus wouldn't be on the preacher; but other, more important things.
Does focusing on Wierwille's sins magnify the True and Living Way, the Christ?
Skyrider, are you referring to your Corps duties? Please explain what you refer to as legalism. Gee, I think TWI was anything but legalistic before the 90's. Have you checked out some other religious groups?
quote:The results speak for themselves. Treat people like trash and they'll stop coming. Eventually you end up with a population whose values are, in a word, non-human. And proud of it.
quote:If some folks would quit focusing endlessly on Wierwille's sins and dirty laundry, maybe the focus wouldn't be on the preacher; but other, more important things.
Does focusing on Wierwille's sins magnify the True and Living Way, the Christ?
Oldies....could you possibly get thru one sentence without bringing up "wierwille?"
Yeah......the worshipping of man is well documented.
Wierwille-worshippers: your heretic has not been dead long enough, and there are too many living witnesses around with a knowledge of his dirty laundry.
If you give Wierwille another couple hundred years - his stock may gain considerably in value. Add a few extra points should the world be hit by catastrophes which somehow wipe out the internet.
In the meantime, consider adopting any number of homeless heretics from the second century on.
The Syrian Cerdo is looking for a home, last I heard, as well as Montanus and Apelles.
All I gotta say is, I'm not really thankful for any kind of teaching thing. I've somehow rejected alot of it.
I am a Christian, and take my faith very seriously. I just can't get into people, and their spin on things.
Give me Jesus, and I'm satisfied.
I don't give a rat's behind whether I've read, or studied, or paid attention to, or researched, whatever, anybody or anything mentioned by TWI having anything to do with my Christian faith.
There's alot of stuff out there, and TWI was pretty limited in what was promoted.
The "Christian World" is alot bigger place than I ever knew while involved.
I have to agree with Ex10. Any sort of nostalgia that I might have for the "good old days" of TWI has little to do with any doctrines or teaching - and certainly not any warm fuzzies about leadership; but more about individuals and friends I made over those years.
Yet even that is tempered by the fact that for a lot of those so-called "friends" I pretty much ceased to exist once I left TWI
quote:When some take a Bible class.....they see the True and Living Way, the Christ. Others see the preacher.
Yo Oldies,.....
Twi mandates and vpw apologists concur: Thank the preacher, reverence the teacher, promote "his work" and legacy for future generations.
If I were to honor men, instead of the Lord:
Should I thank and "honor" BG Leonard for his class that taught young vic?
Should I thank and "honor" Martin Luther for the Protestant Movement?
Should I thank and "honor" bible translators for the English version?
Should I thank and "honor" those who secured these holy writings?
Should I thank and "honor" the writers for hearing the voice of God?
Should I thank and "honor" all in the bloodline of Christ?
To you vpw apologists: If we honor and rever man, any man, with excessive adulation and repeated reverence.....is there NO END to such hypocrisy and idolatry?
I challenge you to go to the way international today. VPW's legacy is everywhere! There is a vpw monument near the Garden of Living Waters. There is a stone marker in the BRC. Go to the OSC, the Auditorium, Founders' Hall....what do you find??? Vpw's legacy!
Check out the street names. Of course, Wierwille Road. :D--> Other streets, side streets....Wierwille, Owens, Allen, Sylvia, Lydia....names of trustees and wierwille's sisters.
The wierwille family barn is a focal point of the homestead....and pictured in their promotional stuff. All of this adds to a glaring declaration of twi's idolatrous mindset.
Need I say more?????
So, Oldies......go visit your beloved twi headquarters and OPEN YOUR EYES. Then.....come back here and tell us what you saw?
Oldies.....please tell me ONE MORE TIME about getting away from focusing on "wierwille."
quote:Nothing of the kind, unless you think having monuments and rememberances of historical figures is idolatry.
Oldies......in your own words, YOU STATED THE DIFFERENCE.
Monuments (plural)....of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant, etc.
Remembrances (plural)....men and women who built this country.
Historical figures (plural)....the heritage of our founding fathers to establish freedom.
ALL WHO BUILT TWI ...and later left, the slate of their work is wiped clean. ;)-->
Only Wierwille is at the top of this pyramid of man worship.
Oldies.....while you're visiting the Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium be sure to put in your application for twi's PR front man. Rico won't be at that job forever.
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Steve!
I don't know if I'm happier knowing what I now know about TWI, or if I would have been happier not knowing.
I guess on the whole I am happier, and better to be around, what with not having so dang much waybrain.
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jardinero
I'm with you there, Steve!-o!!!! So glad to have the rose-colored glasses off and very little discernable waybrain!
J.
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skyrider
Steve, I know what you mean.
When I think about my twi experience.........I thank God that I was introduced to the work of wonderful men like....
Dr. E.W. Bullinger
Rev. B.G. Leonard
George Mueller
Charles H. Welch
Herbert Lockyer
......and many, many more.
:)-->
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Belle
I would gladly trade any good I got out of TWI for having been smart enough to have never gotten involved with them in the first place.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Twi nostalgia vs Twi reality...I've actually heard old junkies speaking nostalgically of the good old days when the heroin they cooked up was pure...I suppose there will always be those who refuse to leave their dream world.
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skyrider
UncleHairy, your closing statement on that other thread (VP & Craig) was a classic! Thanks.
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socks
Interesting points, Sky. I seldom use the word nostalgia in relation to what I discuss about the Way because it implies a longing for something past, a pining for it if you will. "Oh they were good days and I wish they would come back and it could be like that right now."
On Waydale I started a thread once where the topic was a spin off of why the Way has shrunk so in numbers and so many people have left. My observation to make was that for my part, there were a lot of great people and experiences in the Way years that I was involved and that good people are a huge asset. Really, a no-brainer. That component of some very unique and caring people was one of the things that was integral to the Way's growth. That component was denigrated and diminished by Way leaders more and more because they stupidly assumed that it was the biblical teaching and knowledge alone that had real value. The value of the real, living, breathing people was relegated to the least important. "It's the word of God that endures, not people!!!" all of that attitude.
The results speak for themselves. Treat people like trash and they'll stop coming. Eventually you end up with a population whose values are, in a word, non-human. And proud of it.
Posting that with examples as I did caused some posters to wag their heads in disgust at the sorry "nostaglia" for the good old days. "Sad sad, so sad".
Which completely misses the point. My life is made up of a huge library of experiences, people, events, education, etc. etc. The fact that I was in the Way for a period can't be changed now, and everything adds to that library of experiences I've lived, good or bad. It accumulates whether I like it or not. The things I've done and learned include good and bad, it's really simple.
I'm guess I'm about out of steam on these GS discussions as I think about it. It happens about once a year and it's amazing to me that since Waydale it's been a few. Sooner of later if I stop I'll have fonder memories of it later. Not that I'll be nostalgic for it of course.
:D-->
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skyrider
socks, thanks.....appreciate your insight.
I hear what you're saying. Throughout my twi experience.....it was always the real, living, working people that added to special "snapshots" into my "photo album." The list is long.......people on the field, wows, corps, staff. All kinds of unique people are catalogued into some very special moments of my past. THOSE are my favorite snapshots!
Spending time with spirit-filled believers was thrilling....not looking to score browny points with twi leadership.
Working alongside staff/corps, at times, were some of the greatest moments in my twi tenure!
BUT......vpw's legalistic agendas trashed the work and reputation of good men and women alike. As you stated, "It's the Word of God that endures, not people!" was used as a sledgehammer to drive us into nothingness. Either vpw had a sadistic mean-streak to oppress his followers or he was foolish in propounding his out-of-contexts statements at the expense of those who helped to build this ministry.
The legalism mounted with each year. The arrogance mounted with each statement. The abuses mounted with each new corps location. Lording over God's heritage was rampant.
Couldn't vpw spiritually SEE what he was doing? Couldn't the board of trustees stop wierwille's pride and arrogance from blinding his way? Had all of the "top leaders" succombed to vpw adulation? Vpw idolatry?
Even today......"vpw worshippers" come here to GS and put him on a pedestal. They STILL don't get it! These vpw apologists seem to be blinded to the One Body of Christ with members in particular.
The cancerous worshipping of man is well documented in the Bible. When some take a Bible class.....they see the True and Living Way, the Christ. Others see the preacher.
I keep snapshots in my photo album of special people......NOT the roa tent or the brc.
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oldiesman
Does focusing on Wierwille's sins magnify the True and Living Way, the Christ?
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Steve!
om, in case you haven't noticed, this is an ANTI TWI site.
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def59
Amen. Amen. Amen.
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oldiesman
Thanks Steve, I hadn't noticed.
Skyrider, are you referring to your Corps duties? Please explain what you refer to as legalism. Gee, I think TWI was anything but legalistic before the 90's. Have you checked out some other religious groups?Link to comment
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A la prochaine
Socks,
Poetic, simply poetic.
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skyrider
Oldies....could you possibly get thru one sentence without bringing up "wierwille?"
Yeah......the worshipping of man is well documented.
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TheInvisibleDan
Wierwille-worshippers: your heretic has not been dead long enough, and there are too many living witnesses around with a knowledge of his dirty laundry.
If you give Wierwille another couple hundred years - his stock may gain considerably in value. Add a few extra points should the world be hit by catastrophes which somehow wipe out the internet.
In the meantime, consider adopting any number of homeless heretics from the second century on.
The Syrian Cerdo is looking for a home, last I heard, as well as Montanus and Apelles.
Danny
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ex10
All I gotta say is, I'm not really thankful for any kind of teaching thing. I've somehow rejected alot of it.
I am a Christian, and take my faith very seriously. I just can't get into people, and their spin on things.
Give me Jesus, and I'm satisfied.
I don't give a rat's behind whether I've read, or studied, or paid attention to, or researched, whatever, anybody or anything mentioned by TWI having anything to do with my Christian faith.
There's alot of stuff out there, and TWI was pretty limited in what was promoted.
The "Christian World" is alot bigger place than I ever knew while involved.
that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:)-->
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Bogey76
I have to agree with Ex10. Any sort of nostalgia that I might have for the "good old days" of TWI has little to do with any doctrines or teaching - and certainly not any warm fuzzies about leadership; but more about individuals and friends I made over those years.
Yet even that is tempered by the fact that for a lot of those so-called "friends" I pretty much ceased to exist once I left TWI
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Pirate1974
Ditto
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skyrider
Yo Oldies,.....
Twi mandates and vpw apologists concur: Thank the preacher, reverence the teacher, promote "his work" and legacy for future generations.
If I were to honor men, instead of the Lord:
Should I thank and "honor" BG Leonard for his class that taught young vic?
Should I thank and "honor" Martin Luther for the Protestant Movement?
Should I thank and "honor" bible translators for the English version?
Should I thank and "honor" those who secured these holy writings?
Should I thank and "honor" the writers for hearing the voice of God?
Should I thank and "honor" all in the bloodline of Christ?
To you vpw apologists: If we honor and rever man, any man, with excessive adulation and repeated reverence.....is there NO END to such hypocrisy and idolatry?
I challenge you to go to the way international today. VPW's legacy is everywhere! There is a vpw monument near the Garden of Living Waters. There is a stone marker in the BRC. Go to the OSC, the Auditorium, Founders' Hall....what do you find??? Vpw's legacy!
Check out the street names. Of course, Wierwille Road.
:D--> Other streets, side streets....Wierwille, Owens, Allen, Sylvia, Lydia....names of trustees and wierwille's sisters.
The wierwille family barn is a focal point of the homestead....and pictured in their promotional stuff. All of this adds to a glaring declaration of twi's idolatrous mindset.
Need I say more?????
So, Oldies......go visit your beloved twi headquarters and OPEN YOUR EYES. Then.....come back here and tell us what you saw?
Oldies.....please tell me ONE MORE TIME about getting away from focusing on "wierwille."
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oldiesman
When we all visit Washington D.C., and see and enjoy all the monuments and honors of the founding fathers, do you call that idolatry as well?
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skyrider
Oldies......in your own words, YOU STATED THE DIFFERENCE.
Monuments (plural)....of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant, etc.
Remembrances (plural)....men and women who built this country.
Historical figures (plural)....the heritage of our founding fathers to establish freedom.
ALL WHO BUILT TWI ...and later left, the slate of their work is wiped clean.
;)-->
Only Wierwille is at the top of this pyramid of man worship.
Oldies.....while you're visiting the Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium be sure to put in your application for twi's PR front man. Rico won't be at that job forever.
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