Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)

[Galen]

Hammeroni:

I think that anyone who walks around with a name-tag proclaiming that they are thee prophet of a ministry, so just a little too self-important. I would probably not last too long in such a fellowship.

My understanding was that we can ALL prophecy [assuming that we are all in-fellowship and that we each beleive to]. Obviously now since I have spent time here on GreaseSpot Cafe, I have come to realize that many were 'prophecying' knowingly falsehoods. After having read so many confessions of people who faked what they did. It never really occured to me that anyone would do that.

We can see where anyone of us can be tricked, so many beleivers and yet so many differing opinions of how to worship. Presuming that there is a single method which is better, than obviously all other methods must be somewhat less than best. With so many opposing doctrines, there must be churches out there teaching completely wrong stuff. If their leaders truly beleive what they teach [which assumes that they are not 'faking' their ministrys, like so many previous leaders in TWI did], then when they do prophecy some of it MUST be wrong.

I had assumed [yes I know what assuming does] that this passage was talking about any fellowship, where 2 or 3 stand to give words of either prophecy or interpretation. That everyone else is to listen and judge.

If you find 'fault' then quitely afterwards and politely speaking at length with the 'prophet', to see if the issue can be resolved.

Obviously interupting any service, whether in my home, or at a big hall, would not be decent and orderly. If this came from the leader of a big ministry, then I would presume that you've heard the guy speak before you came to this one meeting. If you think his doctrine is off, have you spoken with him about it? Have you spoken with others? Why are you still supporting him then?

"Obviously there are more than five prophets present- three speak, "others" judge. Not impossible I suppose, but to me it would be out of the ordinary to have five prophets running amok in a little local fellowship somewhere.."

Again, are not we all each one of us, a prophet, or a pastor, or a healer, or a recruiter, or a teacher? Even if we are not currently energizing our personal ministry, we still have some type of ministry.

"Plus- I've been thinking about some of the instructions we got about prophecy. Here its not "if any man should speak" like with tongues and interpretation- here they are specifically named, "prophets"."

No doubt you've been in fellowships wherein one person was really good at prayer for your healing. Did you hang a sign around their neck? Likely not. So you did not proclaim them to be a 'healer'. But if someone was in need, who did you send them to? Obviously the person whom you knew to have a long-suit at healing. The 'healer'.

Ever have a grease-monkey in your fellowship who had really terrible social-skills, but that his prophecys were just wonderful? He had a great heart to help everyone and just kept wanting to give to others? Did anyone write 'prophet' on his name-tag? I doubt it. [actually I was just describing a guy we once had in our twig, he lives in Detroit now].

"I remember ole doc's instructions, that this is "the best guidance" we have for operation of "the regular" manifestation of prophecy- I kind of question this now though."

Really you dont see it?

your great you know that right?

:-)

[sharon]

I should stop, get off the web but this is really making me

"In approximately 40-50 percent of his meetings angels appear as witnessed by those who attended. In one meeting over 300 attendees witnessed a cherub in the room." same web site

I don't know about you but if a cherub is involved, plus knowing my future I'm down for 12 large a year.

[Galen]

sharon:

"I should stop, get off the web but this is really making me "

It is 'making' you?

If I take a loaf of bread, can I further 'make' it into a loaf of bread? OR is it a loaf of bread still?

Relax just playing with you. :-)

"In approximately 40-50 percent of his meetings angels appear as witnessed by those who attended. In one meeting over 300 attendees witnessed a cherub in the room."

Do they share from the same Hooka? Or are multiple hookas mounted in the pews and we just pass the mouthpiece up and down the pew? Maybe when filing into the hall, we pass by a really big bong and everyone takes a big hit.

You know there are chemicals that you could just paint onto the hymnals, so that everytime people pick up the hymnals they begin seeing things.

Does attending their services preclude anyone from having a job that requires peeing in a cup?

:-)

[excathedra]

"my person (as opposed to my people, cuz this is personal), get your sheet together"

now who can argue with that ?

[Ham]

Yep- Galen, I have heard messages in prophecy that really seemed to hit the mark, others, about sharp as butter or lard.

I never felt completely comfortable, in the manner we were instructed to operate it in the ministry- or even in offshoots today- but I think it may have been the best according to the word that anybody knew, or knows. I know doc got a lot of the information from some guy in florida- I would be interested in seeing the source of his material someday.

But I don't think that the way we did it was necessarily sin. Corinthians does put it practically on the top of the list of one of the things to aspire to do, correctly. Love of course being the greatest.

Just seems of all the manifestations, or "gifts" if you will, prophecy has the majority of danger signs hung on it. If you don't have the real thing, I don't think it means the guy is necessarily "puzzessed" or anything, but speaking presumptuously for the Almighty can't have too positive of an outcome.

[Ham]

quote:

"my person (as opposed to my people, cuz this is personal), get your sheet together"

now who can argue with that ?

Exie, not me, in a million years..

[Ham]

quote:

You know there are chemicals that you could just paint onto the hymnals, so that everytime people pick up the hymnals they begin seeing things.

Heh heh heh heh heh.. well, it would be one service that you couldn't call "boring".. the congregation would probably never forget, or forgive you for that matter, heh heh.

[Ham]

Right before I got out of der vey, the last communion service I was at they had some kind of "personal prophecy" over certain people. I thought it was kind of creepy.. maybe some of Loy's "new light".

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Prophetic council? Sounds to me like the name of a rock band.

[wwjesuslaughat]

Clearwater,

I've been waiting to respond until I had a little chunk of time to share my experiences with personal prophecy.

As far as the accountability thing, I know that they tape the prophecies as much as they possibly can, so the individual can go over them if he missed something during the actual prophecy, so that helps determine whether or not it is genuine.

I had not heard of such a thing until I got involved with CES around 1996. It was a little weird to me, and I never completely understood the value (yeah, I know, I could have said profit) but I received and gave a number of personal prophecies during my time in CES. I can't say with any Biblical accuracy that it is right or wrong, but I believe like many others who have posted here, that it certainly can be a crutch, like the "Psychic Christian Friends Network."

I really questioned the legitimacy of personal prophecy when someone kind of high up in CES gave me a personal prophecy about a prophetic music ministry for me. I have never had any spiritual motivation or inspiration within me to pursue that avenue, and did not get any "confirmation" whatsoever about that particular prophecy, and actually told that person the same thing. I think they wanted someone to step into that role for the enrichment of CES.

On the other hand, I was involved a few years ago with a singles gathering in which there was personal prophecy and it was very powerful. Everyone prophecied and gave words of prophecy. What was so cool about it was that no one got a prophecy about getting married, or finding a mate, or anything else generic that you might expect to hear or say in a singles group. That kind of led me to believe that people were endeavoring to hear the voice of the Lord, and not things that they thought someone wanted to hear.

As far as Jeff answering your question, I'm afraid all you'll get from him is a hearty "God Bless You, Brother!" and a link to a tape, or book, or class, or Sower article..... -->

[socks]

quote:

I believe if you make one prophecy that does not come to pass you are not a prophet and fall into the category of being false prophet.

Clearwater, I have to say I shudder at the idea of a person saying they're a "prophet". I would pose that a prophet is someone who does the task and not someone who aspires to the job and tries to develop skills to perform it and takes on the name.

I can see no legitimate reason in the Christian church for an organized effort to perform "prophecies" over or for people in a planned ceremony of some kind, regardless of how formal or informal it is.

Examples like weddings, birth dedications, baptisms of children, anniversaries and other benchmark calendar events in people's lives present an opportunity for something like this, but that's all. Every event doesn't presume or include a "prophesy".

I've been involved in many of these kinds of events over the years, attending and officiating. I believe that in these instances as well as in life in general, opportunity always exists. But results can't be assumed when it comes to a "message from God" that's going to be specific in fact and foretelling of a person's life.

It's incredibly presumptuous to do so, in my opinion.

I've met quite a few people who tout themselves as prophets, over the years. They usually clam up around me. That's the truth. For a long time I wondered why. I still don't know why exactly. Maybe "God" doesn't have anything to say to me via these trusted vessels. You'd think with my attitude He'd tell me where to stick it, y'know?

Anyone who steps up to the plate as a Voice of God and offers some kind of prophecy and it turns out to be B.S...I agree with you. We take them out and visit the woodshed. No free pass, no pass Go, no fooling around.

God is holy as are His things, as are His people. Better to wash dishes in the back honestly than to serve spoiled food from the counter. No one's going to be happy about that.

[Rejoice]

There is a very good book written about the PP Movement.

It is titled, "Thus Saith the Lord? by John Bevere. Really puts it in perspective

[diazbro]

I've got a couple of basic questions here just to get caught up on the concept of "personal prophecy". From what I've read here it appears to be the delivery of some message specifically for one person..As opposed to a group. Right ? Also next question. CES was supporting this concept and maybe even teaching it (whatver that means) .. Is that correct ? Lastly and somewhat unrelated.. wasn't CES also the group who, early in their existence, supported the "momentus" classes ?

[Galen]

diazbro-

yes,

yes,

and yes.

In my case, the first that I heard about it, or was taught it was coming from a Mormon. They have practiced such for a long time.

But realistically, anytime that a 'laying-on-of-hands' type ceremony was done, it would seem to many as appropriate for the ministering person to prophecy. And it would seem 'logical' that whatever was said during that 'word-of-prophecy' would be stuff directed 'at' the person having hands laid on them.

At least that is how I have seen it play-out.

Mind you, I have never seen it done within CES, either. Just other places.

:-)

[Galen]

From what I have seen/heard, the Mormon PPs are commonly into the far-reaching or looking far into the future kinds of fore-telling stuff. Like stuff to be written down and reviewed in coming years kind of stuff.

Done during ordinations, or right before an 18year old goes off to enlist in the military, or when an 18 year old goes out on his missionary field.

[diazbro]

Thanks Galen.....

Speaking in general. I recall a situation wherien I was called upon to give a word of prophecy as part of a routine belivers' meeting during the course of which I said some things that were specific to the occasion and group of people present.

After I finished, the TC said out loud something to the effect of (its been a long time but this should be close), "no that was wrong, its not possible for a word of prophecy to contain specific information - that would be the word of knowledge manifestation and you were not called upon to provide that". No one said much and as the awkward silence grew, someone else said "look lets just move on".

After the meeting I stated to the TC that I said what I thought I should say and it turns out he was this new AC grad so I guess he was really into the whole "jot and tittle" thing.

He basically repeated his comment on the specificity being associated with word of knowlwedge so I asked him "how do you know that what I said wasn't the result of word of knowledge" ? At least after that he kinda backed down and said something like "well what you said wasn't bad" (like he was some kind of quality control for manifestations). Some of the other people at the gathering were also complimentary of the "message". However I'm not at all claiming that it was special or even any different than the garden variety interpretation or "word of prophecy". But at least is "blessed" people.

After that I started thinking how general in nature the so called worship manifestations were. It took only about 2 or 3 months from my first twig to realize that they were amazingly similar regardless of geographic location and how generic the messages were. I think this says more about TWI's take on the "mannies" than it does the manifestations themselves.

[Technobyte]

I'm wondering as to why someone would think that we can pick and choose which of the manifestation(s) of the Spirit are appropriate at any given time?

It has been my humble experience that all 9 of the manifestations are designed to work in an interlocking fashion - like your example diazbro. You were probably working both word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and prophesy at the same time.

Why people have to pretend that they know more than another totally escapes me.

As for this "Personal" prophesy stuff, I would suppose that God, or Lord Jesus, would be the one to instruct an individual to give another individual a "personal prophesy". I would also suppose that such events would therefore be rare, and not common practice.

Technobyte

[outofdafog]

In the late 70's, the way marketing team were all at headquarters and I do remember that VPW did a personal prophecy for each of us.

I remember part of mine...............your future is as bright as the promises of God........

believe it or not, I held onto it because the top MOGFART had done the prophecy.

don't put too much stock into it now. if God wants to tell me something, he knows he can tell me.

[waterbuffalo]

quote:

your future is as bright as the promises of God

And that could apply to any believer, couldn't it? But, it sounds like you were inspired by it for years so it must have been a good word for you at the time (or were you just holding onto it because he gave it to you and you respected him).

[Ham]

quote:

After I finished, the TC said out loud something to the effect of (its been a long time but this should be close), "no that was wrong, its not possible for a word of prophecy to contain specific information - that would be the word of knowledge manifestation and you were not called upon to provide that".

So typical of what I encountered.. just analyze it to death- cripe- maybe it WAS word of knowledge stuff- who knows.

In a lot of ways, I think the exhortation/comfort parameters that we tried to box up these manifestations into only served to make them just so watered down, and so generic. I observed the same thing: the same words, the same stuff over and over in any "twig" I was involved in.

[Ham]

But.. makes me think now- how many times did you hear anything that could even be considered "foretelling" in the ministry? I can't think of a single occurence, other than "you'll be a greasespot.." or some such generic nonsense.

"Well, foretelling is only incidental"- perhaps just another excuse for not having the "real deal"? Just a thought..

[socks]

quote:

At least after that he kinda backed down and said something like "well what you said wasn't bad" (like he was some kind of quality control for manifestations)

Thanks for the hoot, diazbro! :D-->

[hiway29]

To be completely honest, in 12 years with the way, I never saw anything that I would consider a 'manifestation of the spirit'.

I could be wrong, but I saw a lot of judging, finger pointing ,and accusations, that were supposedly word of knowledge, or discerning of spirits.

There was a remarkable lack of word of wisdom, or gifts of healing. Don't even talk about faith or miracles.

A little 'foretelling' would have been a welcome relief from the pre programmed by rote messages that we were trained to spout so well.

OK, so I'm feeling cynical today. I just got a good laugh looking at Mr Hammeroni's title-'The Undisputed GS Master of PFAL", so I'm already not so cranky. Never mind.

[sharon]

quote:

To be completely honest, in 12 years with the way, I never saw anything that I would consider a 'manifestation of the spirit'.

thank u from the bottom of my heart, I thought I was the only one.

[GarthP2000]

quote:

In the late 70's, the way marketing team were all at headquarters and I do remember that VPW did a personal prophecy for each of us.

For the marketing team, huh? (tongue in cheek) ... Uh huh. ... I wonder why?

;)-->