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smurfette

How many here hang out with CFF?

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quote:
Originally posted by rascal:

Dove, you seem to be trying to pick a fight....I have already explained my reasons for offering my opinions on places to find fellowship....I don`t need to defend myself any further to you....

Not at all Rascal just sticking to topic here and hoping others would also. The truth is there were two answers to the question asked 1.NO I don't or 2.Yes I do and then you could post what you know or not if you choose not to.

That simple....

You see it's the same ole' same ole'. If the question would have been I'm thinking of checking out yoga the response would have been great,cool but because it was perceived to be Bible or TWI related then we must mention ABUSE ABUSE ABUSE and you dont need that its the same old thing as they have been doing for thirty years. You should do this these people are living it not like those Bible fellowship people that sit around teaching the same old

thing. How can you be happy enjoying the Bible?

The truth is if you are honest with yourself you don't like Bible fellowship you said so Quote(Guess that kind of taints the whole bible research fellowship thing for me) Which is fine it is your right, but don't try to cram your shoe on our foot and not expect a reaction.

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You have taken a rhetorical question out of context from a different thread, and misrepresented what it said in order to make your point.

Bad form, and not honest Allan.

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Dove, you are making a big stink over something that has not happened...you are simply mistaken in your impression of me.

Please desist.

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If I have sorry,it's just that you 'appear' to post denigrating God and His Word and then 'appear' to duck and weave when 'pressed' on the reasons for saying what you did !!

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I don`t back down Allan, *duck and weave* are techniques for someone who is not honest in what they post.

I am finished defending myself to you as well on this thread....in order to avoid further derail, if you want to continue, take it over to the praises/curses thread.

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quote:
Originally posted by rascal:

Dove, you are making a big stink over something that has not happened...you are simply mistaken in your impression of me.

Please desist.

But it has the thread record speaks for itself.

Topic CFF fellowship

Your topic Abuse in the Way,do civic duty instead.

Not quite the same......

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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Z:

Rascal, I could see you were offering help.

Dove, I don't get why this is generating so much heat from you. Rascal didn't say anything critical of CFF or the Bible, or anything of the kind. Have some cocoa or something.

I see no reason why people can't do both...volunteer or join a club if they so desire and fellowship with CFF if they so desire. Seems simple to me.

Linda

It is to hot for cocoa but if your buying drinks..... wink2.gif;)-->

For the record nothing wrong with both I personally do. In three days I'm spending my day off to put up new fence in our dog park. As a member I also attend the meetings and help with the fundraising. My business also contributed to the purchase of the fence. I sponser two dogs at a rescue shelter in another state. I also attend Board meetings for a local church camp here at their request ( I don't attend their church). I just finished work for a MD fundraiser. and so on... The point Nothing wrong with civic minded things but it is not a substitute for Bible based fellowship. On Wed. & Sundays you will find me at fellowship evidently sitting around teaching the same old things I have been for thirty years. While those civic people are living it a real Christian life. icon_rolleyes.gif:rolleyes:-->

It was not presented as hey why don't you do both it was - you been doing that same thing for 30 years why don't you get out of your comfort zone? and Gosh it isn`t like I don`t know what the bible says, and how it applies to me at this point. and we are prone to think that a biblical fellowship is the only place to get this particular little *itch* scratched. Not exactly a convincing argument to do both.

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Hey all I wasnt trying to start a debate. I am wondering about CFF....But I am also getting out of my comfort zone and have found a pretty cool church in my area. I am trying to figure out what might be best for me. I really appreciate everyone and all of your comments! icon_smile.gif:)-->

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BTW I consider myself lonely because I haven't allowed myself to relax andlet down my guard at the church. It's large enough that I can go there and be left pretty much alone. (Though a few people have noticed me and been very nice-I am just not ready to unload all my personal thoughts,feelings and confusion.) I think in some ways I am scared to get more involved than that because of my previous twit experience.

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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteDove:

I'm always amazed at how these threads play out. A simple question.

Getting lonely and wondering about checking out CFF. Anyone here fellowship with them?

Then on cue we have to hear about the abuse in the way followed by lets bring up the past threads on abuse to the top too. What does that have to do with the question? Nothing.

It is clear that she was looking for a Bible based fellowship,but that can't happen No!we must educate them on what they really need. I suppose we are too stupid to know what we want.

"What does that have to do with the question? Nothing."

Incorrect, and, although others already explained, but I'll explain again.

"It is clear that she was looking for a Bible-based fellowship, but that can't happen.

No! We must educate them on what they really need. I suppose we are too stupid to know what

we want."

No, you're just unable or unwilling to see the relevance of the answer. Although others

already explained it, I'll explain again.

====

At this very moment, there are

A)God-loving Christians who are trying to leave twi,

B)God-loving Christians who just left twi

C) God-loving Christians AFRAID TO LEAVE twi

[There are also other types of people, and I'm not pretending there aren't.]

The Christians afraid to leave twi are afraid to leave for many reasons.

Some are afraid to leave behind friends and family members. Some are afraid to face a

completely-changed life.

The BIGGEST fear for Christians afraid to leave twi is one that was

CAREFULLY CULTIVATED

by twi.

twi taught-and still teaches- that only twi has "The Truth".

(That's one reason vpw had to keep lying that he had no significant sources-the sources

were proof that he wasn't the only 'Teacher' with 'The Truth'.)

twi thus taught-and still teaches-that to leave 'The Only Group With The Truth'

is to leave 'The Truth' and you will be unable to serve God and learn from God

if you leave.

(I'm not even addressing the 'leave twi and die' stuff.)

So, some people leave ANYWAY.

Once they have left,

many Christians have not surgically-removed all twi doctrine from their brains.

It doesn't happen like clicking a screen-icon...it takes TIME, WORK, and INFORMATION.

So, many Christians leave twi and think that they can't find ANY places that teach

'The Truth'.

So, they say, well, all other Christians teach lies, but other people left twi-

maybe I will have a chance to hear 'The Truth' from them. It can't be much worse than

what I left.

So, they then seek out the extwi groups.

It would be of considerable benefit to many of them to learn that other Christians aren't

all the undereducated, idolatrous idiots twi has taught they were-and still teach they were.

Therefore, it is of considerable benefit for many of them to learn this-which means that a

Christian genuinely interested in helping another Christian to let them know that there are

many Christians NEVER affiliated with twi who are quite good.

(Many people still think "Babylon:Mystery Religion" was accurate, even though the AUTHOR

has written a sequel completely REPUDIATING it, and it is useful for them to be told that

he wrote such a book, and its name: "the Babylon Connection?")

So, is it irrelevant to warn people that a group they are looking into has hurt people in

the past?

If you say 'yes', what are you doing on the GSC?

Is it irrelevant to tell people who have been indoctrinated

"only WE know The Truth!" that lots of people know 'The Truth' and not just people who were

miseducated the same manner they were?

You seem to be saying "Yes" by saying it is irrelevant.

I say "Make sure they are INFORMED.

Then they can make their own decisions.

Thus, more information is a GOOD THING."

(So long as it's not lies or misinformation.)

========

"Are we supposed to feel guilty because we enjoy Bible fellowship?"

Have you stopped beating your wife?

icon_rolleyes.gif:rolleyes:-->

Duh.

Of COURSE it's not wrong to attend a Bible fellowship, nor is it wrong to ENJOY one.

For many people, it's probably the BEST option.

HOWEVER,

it is NOT the ONLY viable option, and it behooves us (horses have behooves)

to point that out, and allow them to seek out what works BEST for THEM.

To turn this question around into a different unfair question:

"Is it wrong to warn someone when they leave one abusive cult and prepare to join another?"

Yes, it's an unfair question.

You're making it sound like the Christians onsite all said that the extwi groups are all

JUST AS BAD as twi.

Of course they didn't say that.

There ARE problems and pitfalls to avoid, and it is a GOOD THING to make them aware of

them,

ISN'T IT?

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Allan,

AFTER rascal said

quote:
Good thing for me that God appears able and quite willing to work

outside of the avenues employed by twi to make himself known...else many of us would never

trust him again.

My whole point was, not to slam cff, (I think the guys who run it are good folks), but to

give thought that meaningful Christian fellowship can be found outside of the

boundaries of the Bible fellowship that we know.

There is a whole world of exciting options out there that folks may or may not be aware

of when departing twi.

you replied

quote:
Well, Rascal, contrary to what you would like to see happen, there

will be many still with a deep love for God and the Boble who will leave and ENJOY

continuing fellowship with MANY of the foundational truths learnt.

This mis-characterized rascal's comments as follows:

1) accuses her of not loving God

2) accuses her of not loving the Bible

3) accuses her of not enjoying "fellowshipping" with Christians.

This also makes the following assumptions:

1) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" love God

2) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" love the Bible

3) ONLY those in extwi "fellowships" enjoy "fellowshipping" with Christians

4) ONLY extwi'ers have 'The Truth'.

As to assumptions 1,2 and 3, if you don't see how this is wrong, you really need to spend

some time with other Christians-in a non-confrontational attitude.

Volunteer at a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter.

Work WITH them to do something worth doing.

They don't all enjoy spitting on the Bible, which some in twi (like vpw and lcm) suggested

all other Christians did.

As to assumption 4....

A) All accurate information in twi (about 99% of it, possibly more) CAME FROM sources

OUTSIDE of twi. Thus, 99% or more of The Truth has been out there since before twi.

twi was NEVER as "elite" as its propaganda put forth.

B) Some of twi's doctrine was WRONG. Period. Unquestionably so.

Review some of our discussions on the "Law of Believing" and how it is incorrect from

Scripture sometime.

Your next post was just a plain insult aimed at rascal, and pretending not to be.

quote:
I really wonder how many people were a 'nasty piece of work' before they got

involved in twi in the first place, whether they changed and after leaving

'reverted back' to their old man nature??!!

If it was stated outright instead of your "clever" implication, it would read

quote:
Rascal was a 'nasty piece of work' before twi, and is again now, and only was nice

when IN twi.

Neither the direct nor the "slyly-phrased original" were examples of a Godly approach to her.

After that, you then asked her

quote:
So, Rascal, what is your true motivation for posting on the forum anyway, sorry,

some of us are tending to believe it is for ©ulterior motives?!

quote:
...and your reasons for your opinions are becoming a 'little' bit shall we say...

hard to swallow.

and

quote:
..it's just that you 'appear' to post denigrating God and His Word and then 'appear'

to duck and weave when 'pressed' on the reasons for saying what you did!!

Well, Allan, that is your PERCEPTION.

rascal, from the beginning (scroll up on this post)

said that she doesn't find God such a small God that He only appears in the little box that

twi placed Him in, and that God does not require working with liars, rapists and so on in

order to bless His people.

Isn't that what she said?

quote:
Good thing for me that God appears able and quite willing to work outside of the

avenues employed by twi to make himself known...else many of us would never trust him again.

My whole point was...to give thought that meaningful Christian fellowship can be found

outside of the boundaries of the Bible fellowship that we know.

Yep, sure sounds like what she said.

Sounds like her true motive was-and still is-exactly that.

Sounds like any difficulty in swallowing is in the reader, not the post.

Now then,

are you putting forth that when one says

"God and His Word"

one means

"God and His Word ONLY as presented by twi"?

If so, then yes, you and rascal are in disagreement.

Mind you,

if that's what you mean,

there's a LOT of evidence to demonstrate that your position is error.

If you'd like,

we can discuss this in the Doctrinal forum.

Or,

you can just review the threads on individual doctrines that were ALREADY discussed.

Then you can make an INFORMED decision as to whether or not the ONLY people who ever

taught truth was twi and anyone they taught.

Or,

you can choose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, and embrace whatever doctrine

pleases you emotionally. As an adult, that IS an option for you.

(Some adults HAVE made that deliberate decision, and that is THEIR choice as well.)

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Maybe I ought to set MY record straight here..

Actually, I know folks in CFF. I actually LIKE them. I enjoy talking with them, even about the BIBLE. I even find myself in agreement, with much of what they have to say.

I even enjoy participating in some of the activities..

That said..

Here's my OPINION:

I think the organization really needs to stand on its own, on its own merits. You can preach the message of PFAL to me all day long, or to other grads of the "old school".

But you're just preaching to the choir.

If it can't "bring new light" to the newer generation, to those who NEED what it has to offer, without applying inordinate amounts of pressure and motivation, well, its just going to die a slow death. And hopefully not the kind of death witnessed with TWI..

Personally, I "did my part" with the old ministry. I went out and beat the bushes all the live long day, trying to find somebody "seeking the truth".

I did this to build up an organization once, I am not going to go out of my way to do it again.

God's got me too busy with other stuff. I'm not going to go "WOW" again. No more programs, no more one class after another..

Personally, I feel that if you NEED that kind of involvement, so be it. Can't say its necessarily the wrong way to go..

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Nope Wordwolf Read the question Does.... anybody.... here.... fellowship... with.... them.

No one asked for a dissertation on people leaving the Way the subject was CFF.. Catcup and others managed to read the question and answer quite well with out attempting to redirect them to some other endeavor. Or bringing up an abuse issue that was in the Way a different group. It seems to me one would need to attend the meetings before one could warn anybody about what was going on there.

Quote Wordwolf

So, is it irrelevant to warn people that a group they are looking into has hurt people in

the past?

If you say 'yes', what are you doing on the GSC?

Where is the record of CFF hurting someone in the past the issues brought up were with the Way. CFF is not the Way. And I'm here to keep things fair, balanced and truthful.

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Gosh Oak, will ya look at my karma! Must be a sign from God ;-) Thanks Buddy...

Smurff, not a problem at all, sometimes folks irritated over another issue entirely will let it bleed over into a completely unrelated thread...I`m sorry your thread just got caught in the cross fire is all :-)

Gentleman, thankyou very much, it really was starting to feel like I was being dog piled...

I apreciate the life line thrown........

Wolf thanks for taking the time and effort to sort through the mess and post for clarification... it was getting out of my league.

I knew what it was I intended to say, but it was getting mighty tough to explain it.

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quote:
Originally posted by smurfette:

I think in some ways I am scared to get more involved than that because of my previous twit experience.

May I make a suggestion? Make a list (written or mental) of behaviors you find troubling or won't tolerate in a religious fellowship or organization. Maintain it as a checklist.

When you attend a meeting or service, run the things that happened there against your checklist. If they get a lot of checkmarks, it's probably time to leave.

But don't be afraid to try new fellowships. Some people have had positive experiences with CFF, and some have not. I think things like that tend to vary between individual groups.

Whatever you decide to do, make sure your individual, personal boundaries are not crossed. Nobody has the right to do that.

And...ask God. Maybe he has a solution that will cut through the crap. He's weird that way.

icon_smile.gif:)-->

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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteDove:

Nope Wordwolf Read the question Does.... anybody.... here.... fellowship... with.... them.

No one asked for a dissertation on people leaving the Way the subject was CFF..

By that logic, anything beyond "yes" or "no" was ALSO off-topic,

because she never asked "where can I find CFF?"

She just asked "does anybody here fellowship with them."

See,

most people-unless she made it clear she was hoping to SKIP such discussion by saying

"please confine discussions of its merits and flaws to another thread",

would consider it on-topic to thus discuss

"is it a good idea to fellowship with CFF?"

which, although she did not ASK that question,

does indeed seem RELEVANT to discussing whether or not someone DOES

"fellowship with them".

===========

quote:

Quote Wordwolf

So, is it irrelevant to warn people that a group they are looking into has hurt people in

the past?

If you say 'yes', what are you doing on the GSC?

Where is the record of CFF hurting someone in the past the issues brought up were with the Way. CFF is not the Way. And I'm here to keep things fair, balanced and truthful.

Actually, you can blame me for this one.

Since you and Allan had expounded at length about discussions of problems with CFF,

("abuse abuse abuse")

I thought such a discussion had actually BEGUN.

Since it did NOT begin, my defense of it was senseless-

but then, so does any complaint that someone is discussing problems with them.

icon_biggrin.gif:D-->

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quote:
CFF leaves it up to the individual how they want to conduct their own fellowship

Catcup, I agree, and really give them credit for this.

Plus they don't criticize folks, at least that I am aware of, of lack of full participation, or any such nonsense. People are seemingly able to come and go as they please, and are actually encouraged to study outside sources.

It is quite a different "animal" than the TWI that we came out of, especially in a practical sense.

But it is still relatively young, as organizations go. Time will tell..

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If they don't criticise folks then it's obviously not for some here !!

Wordwolf,one can 'try' to defend what is said by the likes of Rascal by 'analyzing' figures of speech etc but one of the 'biggies' I look at when studying is.. remote and near context and..(scripture)BUILDUP !!

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Wordwolf said ..So there are pagans, atheists, christians of every stamp that post here..

Thats fine, I'm sure we've all worked that out, but some of us have also worked out that they try to 'push' their beliefs as much as anyone.

It's called 'debating'.

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As one of the few pagans on this site, I would challenge you, Allan, to find any place where I have 'pushed' my beliefs on someone. Sorry, gave that up when I left TWI behind a few years ago. I no longer believe in one truth that fits every human being on the planet.

This is an exTWI forum. I spent twenty years in TWI, so I qualify as exTWI. I can have an opinion about TWI if I want to!

I think Raf runs an all Christian EXTWI forum, perhaps you would be more comfortable there?

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Agreed Bramble, the most serious offenders of pushing their beliefs, is usually the ones upset that folks are no longer are kept cowed by twi dogma.

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No I'm happy to stay here for awhile to stop it being overun by pagans, atheists, new agers and spiritualists,so thanks anyway Bramble !

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I know longer believe in one truth that fits every human being on the planet.

I challenge you to find anywhere on this site where I have pushed my beliefs.

I didn't have to look far did I ??!!

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Oh DEAR, somebody`d better run tell pawtucket that the place is being over run by pagans athiests, new agers and spiritualists....

Gosh with only Allan nobly standing in the gap to stem the flow of darkness.......

What a guy......

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How are you going to stop anything here at GSC, Allan? Are you the new site owner? How are you going to change anyone's personal beliefs or opinions? Or make them shut up?

You only control your own reply button!

We're not in TWI anymore, we're not cowering in fear before the Big Wise Leaderman. Its a big change.

People will be who they are. Welcome to the Big Wide World.

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