Basking in the glory of my old cult days, I recall TWI used to be tops on many lists.
Now that TWI has slid off the screen, who are the new top dogs?
Some old favorites like the JWs and LDS come to mind, but are there any new young turks looking to make a claim.
Define cult for this purposes. Is it a cult if its doctrine is outside of "orthodox" Christianity (and who determines that one...) or some other criterion(criteria)?
* adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
* fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"
* a system of religious beliefs and rituals; "devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
* In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
* In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings ("scriptures"), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety. Cult is literally the "care" owed to the god and the shrine. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_(religion)
* A religious group that follows a particular theological system. In the context of Christianity, and in particular, CARM, it is a group that uses the Bible but distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause salvation to be unattainable. A few examples of cults are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Unity, Religious Science, The Way International, and the Moonies.
Hhhmmmmmm, ... and usually you get the standard exemption excuse (read 'song-and-dance') from a lot of 'cult experts' of "Well, it doesn't matter what one's religious beliefs are when it comes to defining a dangerous, mind controlling cult", yet how many times does adherance to orthodoxy/mainstream doctrines come into play when defining the aforementioned 'dangerous cults', particularly when the term 'mind control' is thrown in to really stir up the fear factor.
We get this same kind of shoddy work of definition/understanding in Wierwille's 'research', and we rightfully nail it as garbage. (Well most of us do anyway). ... Why not apply that same standard here?
A religious group that follows a particular theological system. In the context of Christianity, and in particular, CARM, it is a group that uses the Bible but distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause salvation to be unattainable.
Now that I am on the doctrinal thread I can ask--
Just why do you belive salvation is unattainable in the LDS churcH???
Precisely what doctrine or doctrines that affects salvation has been distorted significantly???
--I want chapter and verse from LDS teachings (actual teachings not what some anti mormon literature SAYs are LDS teachinsgs)
In the 1970s while I was in TWI, I was shown a book by my Brother, who at that time was going to Christ for the Nations Bible College in Dallas Texas. That book on cults Defined a Cult, this way:
A Cult is any organization, or person who believes that "Jesus is NOT God".
That was first on the list, and then it discussed "brainwashing", "people selling all their possessions to fund the Cult", "Living communally", and 'people following the teachings of One man/woman blindly without using their own thought processes, and without questioning its Leader'.
They sited the following groups at that time as being:
TWI,
JWs
Moonies
Children of God (now known as the Family)
Mormans
World Wide Church of God (Garner Ted Armstrong - who by the way use to be part of the JW organization and was one of its contributing leaders., his son now has an offshoot organization.)
The David Carresh (sp) - group
Jim Jones' group (their name escapes me)
Someone in a previous note mentioned 'Unity', but that church IS Trinitarian, so therefore I doubt someone would consider them a 'cult'....
Incidentally, the organization my brother was a part of, one of the Big time "Faith Healers' Kara Koffman (sp) she was suied for Fraud. This individual at one of her 'gatherings' sat in an empty wheelchair simply because there was no where else to sit and they came in late. Well, Kara had her ushers - usher the wheelchair (person and all) up to the stage and told them to STAND, you are HEALED, (well course they stood up, and the audience rejoiced). Imagine if you were in this situation? What would you have done? Taken the mic and told the audience the truth? Well this person simply walked off the stage.. and later filed the lawsuit.
Anyway --- It was a bunch of people who obviously were Strick Trinitatians that wrote that CULT BOOK I saw in the 70s. Still, I never defined TWI or any of them as Cults.
I would say, however that many Groups have proven themselves Deceptive (cult or otherwise).
Many were motivated by greed, money, and power.
Various leaders of these organizations let the power go to their heads.
Dr. Phil recently opened the public's eyes to a few who were abusing young children as part of their Cause for God. That was a good thing to get the public aware of what was happening to innocent children. There are so many 'messed up minds' out there from these dangerous groups.
I bet, Catholic included, you could find People in leadership positions "taking advantage of their power, and molesting children, or using their position to commit adultery", AND they get to STAY in their POWERFUL POSITIONS. The All powerful Assemblies of God had a guy like that, An Evangelist for crying out loud. He was hiring prostitutes and having 'god knows what' going on to pleasure himself in motel rooms. His name escapes me. There was a Baptist Evangelist who traded in his position (He was known as the Chaplain of Burbon Street) He was big in the 70s, then he 'couldn't beat them, so he joined them', and dissappeared out of the Fold. Oh, there are SO MANY OTHERS who have used their power to 'control, manipulate, and deceive'. There are offshoots of Mormonism that have gone into communities where they aren' t controlled by 'county or city' jurisdictions and take on many wives.
I lived in a town called Arlington WA - there was a group called "The Israel Family", they lived communally, on a farm where they raised Garlic, and Hemp. Big Drug sales occurred there, AND the leader "Love Israel", he and his 'wives and children' lived off the wealth of others, had a NICE place, and the rest had huts with no electricity. They changed all their names, like to "Charish Israel, "Grace Israel, and so forth". They schooled their children til High School and then brought their kids 'pot and drugs', and then those kids influenced others in the school. No one could stop them. They had a garlic festival every year (kinda reminded me of ROA, only old hippies). People from all over the USA and the World attended their festivals.
I have had Mormons (LDS) in my family and many friends who were. If there is one organization out there that is doing right by their families, I have to say they impress me by their lives and the standards and morals they live by. (I bet you'll find someone in that group that has been a poor example too.) I would not become a Mormon, cause I do not agree with some of their doctrine, but I Will not Judge them. Even tho JWs have a messed up way of thinking (in my opinion) you don't hear too many things about them and 'sexual misconduct', although I do know a personal case in my family when my Sister was in the group in CA. One of the gals in her congregation was babysitting her kids, and was inappropriate with them. This was the wake up call for my sister to leave that group.
The bible says we will "Know them by their fruit", and attest to their works.
Still I won't judge any one person based on the Organization or the example their Leaders are providing., at the same time I will Not participate in a Ministry that has caused so much pain and misery, has been so judgemental of others (based on their ability to abundantly share).
I look at groups like the Moonies with 'sadness in my heart'. Because I see so many people being CONTROLLED, MANIPULATED, and Deceived...
There is good vs evil in every nationality, and in every religion, and certainly in Politics!
I seriously doubt there is ONE and only ONE true RELIGION. I think its an individual walk. I think people who love and want to serve God need to find fellowship with others whom 'lift them, help them grow spiritually, and accept their uniqueness, and love them unconditionally", and wherever led to serve God that they maintain their FREEDOM of WILL and will take a stand for what is Righteous.
Why should we accept the Book of Mormon as equal to the Scriptures. Jesus warned against those adding to the book or taking away
If that is the criteria we already know that a whole lot has been taken-away from the books mentioned in the OT that are nowhere to be found to the work of various synods that selected which scriptures we were permitted to keep and which were to be rejected-- many of which they destroyed . The Catholics and Protestants can't even agree on the books of the OT. Is it really so far fetched to believe that God would find a way to preseve the plain and precious truths that were lost or destroyed??
How do we know that Jesus was witnessing to the natives in Central America while he was dead in Palestine?
HOw do I know that he was witnessing to the apostles after his resurrection --by faith
What's the deal with the secret services,
Sacred not secret--BTW you can go to the Library of Congress and get /request a copy of the actual service
special underwear
Some peole wear crosses, some ministers wear special collars, some wear scapula, or pins, we wear our "garments " so we have a constant reminder of our promises and covenants with God.
doctrine that suggests Jesus and Lucifer were brothers?
You have got to stop reading that anti-Mormon liturature
Concening a group of people who felt it necessary to re-write scripture - is the JWs.
They have their own bible called "The New World Translation of the Scriptures". The only problem witih their 'translation', is they made several boo boos. For instance, their Bible changes were suppose to suport their doctrine and instead it confuses things. They went through and changed the word 'lord', and other things. In this case, the JWs felt it necessary to have a Bible that supported their lies.
Reader's Digest created a Condensed Version of the Bible. (in order to condense, one must take out stuff).
There is another group besides the Morman church who have additional material other than the "King James Bible". The Seventh Day Adventists. The Mormons and the Adventists have 'prophets' one male (Joseph Smith ?), and one female (name escapes me). Both prophets wrote books on things they felt God wanted them to tell the masses. Well, as I recall, VPW also wrote books in addition to the Bible. The book of Mormon does NOT replace the Bible for Mormons, its only a 'supplemental' piece of Literature for study and doctrine. Most all religions have their 'books of doctrine'.
Hey what about the "Dead Sea Scrolls"? Weren't they written way before the "King James"?
Has anyone read any of the books written by a "Bishop Spong"? Anyone seen the studies of the "Jesus Seminar'? These are theories, studies and suggestions all coming from Leaders in Mainstream Christianity. Scholars if you please.
What about Mythology? Or the stories that were created by Indians years ago? Is Mythology older than "Christianity"? (curious, not expressing an opinion here.)
Every organization out there has their Reasons for their 'additional literature'. Its to further indoctrinate their followers to 'trust or believe' them. Oh, to the powers of 'believing' whatever they be! What the mind of man can believe, he can achieve!
People will always 'see things differently'. This is true of colors, events, and philosophy. (to name only a few).
I'm compiling a list of questions I plan to ask God, or Christ when after "the Return" provided they aren't too busy destroying all 'evil'. I just hope that the list is with me and makes it to the "Bema".
I'm a little confused on your criticism of the Jehovah's Witnesses with regard to changing the word "Lord." At best, your criticism is incomplete.
The word LORD in the Hebrew Scriptures was generally "YHWH," which JW's translated Jehovah. This was perfectly appropriate and you should not have a problem with it in the slightest.
The New Testament is where it gets tricky, because they used "kurios" (not sure I have the exact transliteration there) when quoting OT passages that contained YHWH. So sometimes inserting "Jehovah" in place of Lord is appropriate in the NT, and sometimes it is not.
In any event, those changes made by the JW's support the truth, not lies.
I could get out previous notes I made while I was in the organization and show you all the places where they put in the word Jehovah, or Jesus inplace of the word 'lord' where it WAS NOT appropriate. One thing comes to mind is where it was talking about a woman and her husband, and it was said her husband was her 'lord' in the Bible, in the NWT is said Jehovah (I believe).
You are protective of the JWs, is this because you are among them? If so, I caution you against this group. They are fear motivated., among other things, but hey, you and others should follow your hearts. I personally have found many of their doctrine full of mis-truths. For instance, do you REALLY believe Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel? There would be more. I've made it my passion to try and FORGET about the indoctrination I went through within that Group.....
At any rate, I didn't intend for my comments to 'offend' but perhaps if you want to start a post in support of the JW's so many TRUTHS, I'd be glad to dig up my notes.
I'D ALSO be happy to share with you years of Horror that occurred all in the name of that Organization. How a man disowned his family because they did not become JWs. OH, I could write a book. Have you ANY idea what takes place in their Headquarters? Russel and Rutherford were in no way Biblical Scholars....
I don't think that stance on the Trinity has ever been a benchmark for cult status. If it were so, the United Pentecostal Church and a host of other Pentecostal denominations would be cults.
Apparently, those who define cults as being at odds with orthodoxy need a bit more than an unorthodox doctrine of the Godhead to make the cut.
Since many of the cult lists of the past have listed JW's & LDS as cults, TWI would have to be down teh list a piece. Even at its largest it was small compared to them.
I define a cult as being something that makes my "cult sniffer alarm" go off: They're hustling for money, they're the one true 'thang', they separate you from your family, they have extensive insider lingo, etc. Enough of that, taken together, qualifies for me. On that subjective basis, JW & LDS don't make the cut, despite from some beliefs that strike me as peculiar.
I was baffled by the notion that the United Pentecostal Church didn't believe in the Trinity! Because for years growing up that's all I heard my Aunt and Uncle fuss about was how my Dad's religion were Anti-christ. BUT, hey I located a web site, which I have inserted the link to below.
I am very amazed, and I apologize for doubting your word, Evan. Perhaps through the years they have changed their teachings? At any case, here is a link as to what they now believe.
Very interesting.. I thank you for pointing this out to me.
As I mentioned in a post way before todays, the Cult book I was introduced to, well it was written in the Early 70s.. and by the way, it did include TWI in its list of dangerous organizations.
Regarding what organizations have added or taken away from the original Scriptures, I simply found it interesting how the JWs had to re-write the Bible, and when they did, it had massave boo boos, typos if you will, and to this day they will write articles that try to explain and or correct the mistakes.
Since Christ has promised a 'Second Return' I think our focus ought to be on "How do we identify the Anti-Christ" so we are not fooled into Following after the Wrong one?
I think the most Dangerous of Cults are those whose leaders CLAIM to be GOD or the Messiah!!
We have to be on guard and our spiritual discernment in tact,, and the only way that can happen (in my opinion) is prayer and an individual walk with God....
I think the most Dangerous of Cults are those whose leaders CLAIM to be GOD or the Messiah!!
Dangerous only to the kooks who join them. Few, outside the Moonies, ever garnered a sizeable following.
Incidentally, a friend's brother in law has come to believe that he is the prophet Elijah, or at times, Jesus. If you call him on the phone he'll answer "Jesus speaking!"
Your right, To qualify my statement I should of said "Dangerous to those who Believe that non-sense.". My first father-in-law, who is Greek use to always tell me "I'm the Jesus". but I assure you, he was only kidding.
Its amazing to me how people will just blindly believe some of the stuff they hear.
The moonies are still very active, but if you looked at the size of organizations out there, The Family has quite a following itself. They are in other countries besides the USA. While the group founded by "Jim Jones" seemed to have lost many followers including the leader, to the 'koolaid incident', they still exist (not all of the committed suicide).
The Harry Chrishnas (sp) they still exist today, too. You can find them promoting their religion at colleges even now. Not too many years ago there was this group that thought Space Ships were coming for them. (A mass suicide in CA, I believe from that organization.)
Waco had its Cult, too, and not all of them Died, either. That group reformed into 'splinters' too.
Dangerous only to the kooks who join them. Few, outside the Moonies, ever garnered a sizeable following.
Incidentally, a friend's brother in law has come to believe that he is the prophet Elijah, or at times, Jesus. If you call him on the phone he'll answer "Jesus speaking!"
[ WordWolf in brackets and boldface as of old... ]
"RAF, are you affiliated with the JWs?"
[No, he is not.
He never said he WAS,
nor did he say they were above criticism-even on THIS point.
He said "YOUR criticism is incomplete"-with the context making it clear that he was
referring to the SPECIFIC one you had just posted,
and not EVERY criticism you or anyone else had ever made on them. ]
"I could get out previous notes I made while I was in the organization and show you all the places where they put in the word Jehovah, or Jesus inplace of the word 'lord' where it WAS NOT appropriate. One thing comes to mind is where it was talking about a woman and her husband, and it was said her husband was her 'lord' in the Bible, in the NWT is said Jehovah (I believe)."
[I believe that was what he was referring to inasmuch as there is grounds to complain
about that subject-but not the specific complaint you made. ]
"You are protective of the JWs,"
[No,
he just made it clear that you made an inaccurate statement.
He did not say "this organization has T3H TR00TH!"
Raf is protective of TRUTH. ]
"is this because you are among them?"
[Hardly, and you're mischaracterizing him, being oversensitive on this subject YOURSELF.]
"If so, I caution you against this group."
[You're late.
He was cautioning ME against this group before there was an internet.]
"They are fear motivated., among other things, but hey, you and others should follow your hearts. I personally have found many of their doctrine full of mis-truths. For instance, do you REALLY believe Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel? "
[Has Raf given you a reason to suspect he DOES believe this?
I can recite to you what he's said on the subject-
or you can search THIS MESSAGEBOARD for it.
Of course, it's easier just to jump to a conclusion.]
"There would be more. I've made it my passion to try and FORGET about the indoctrination I went through within that Group....."
[You haven't gone far enough yet. Keep trying.]
"At any rate, I didn't intend for my comments to 'offend'"
[ The previous one didn't "offend", but this one grossly mischaracterizes one of the posters here,
so your "apology" offers much offense to those concerned with TRUTH and ACCURACY.]
but perhaps if you want to start a post in support of the JW's so many TRUTHS, I'd be glad to dig up my notes.
[ Maybe he would if it in any way reflected his position or what he even SAID. ]
I'D ALSO be happy to share with you years of Horror that occurred all in the name of that Organization. How a man disowned his family because they did not become JWs.
[ He's a REPORTER.
I'd bet money he has more of these stories on them than YOU do. ]
OH, I could write a book. Have you ANY idea what takes place in their Headquarters? Russel and Rutherford were in no way Biblical Scholars....
Wolf : Excuse me for ASKING questions. I obviously DO NOT KNOW Raf like you do. I merely asked, I DID NOT ACCUSE nor did I CONDEMN. It just seemed he got pretty defensive when I pointed out that The JWs also had their own translation of the Bible.
I will certainly think TWICE before making any further POSTS.....
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markomalley
Define cult for this purposes. Is it a cult if its doctrine is outside of "orthodox" Christianity (and who determines that one...) or some other criterion(criteria)?
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dmiller
HERE ARE A FEW DEFINITONS
B)
David
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markomalley
Thanks, David. I knew that already. I wanted Def to answer that though for a reason...
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dmiller
Looks like anybody can be called a cult.
A definition might help here. :)
If twi was included as one of the *biggest and baddest*, then it must be something from outside of *mainstream* denomination's doctrine, eh?
Or could it all hinge on the trinity??? That seems to be a big *red flag* to a lot of groups that are fond of labeling others as a cult.
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GarthP2000
Hhhmmmmmm, ... and usually you get the standard exemption excuse (read 'song-and-dance') from a lot of 'cult experts' of "Well, it doesn't matter what one's religious beliefs are when it comes to defining a dangerous, mind controlling cult", yet how many times does adherance to orthodoxy/mainstream doctrines come into play when defining the aforementioned 'dangerous cults', particularly when the term 'mind control' is thrown in to really stir up the fear factor.
We get this same kind of shoddy work of definition/understanding in Wierwille's 'research', and we rightfully nail it as garbage. (Well most of us do anyway). ... Why not apply that same standard here?
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TheInvisibleDan
1. Republicans
2. Democrats
3. Soccer Moms
4. Blue-Green Algae merchants
5. That new "Burger King" angus-beef cult
....
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lindyhopper
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templelady
Now that I am on the doctrinal thread I can ask--
Just why do you belive salvation is unattainable in the LDS churcH???
Precisely what doctrine or doctrines that affects salvation has been distorted significantly???
--I want chapter and verse from LDS teachings (actual teachings not what some anti mormon literature SAYs are LDS teachinsgs)
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markomalley
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CKnapp3
And the largest and most dangerous cult in the United States????
::::scroll down::::
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THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!! And its leader: George W. Bush!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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jetc57
In the 1970s while I was in TWI, I was shown a book by my Brother, who at that time was going to Christ for the Nations Bible College in Dallas Texas. That book on cults Defined a Cult, this way:
A Cult is any organization, or person who believes that "Jesus is NOT God".
That was first on the list, and then it discussed "brainwashing", "people selling all their possessions to fund the Cult", "Living communally", and 'people following the teachings of One man/woman blindly without using their own thought processes, and without questioning its Leader'.
They sited the following groups at that time as being:
TWI,
JWs
Moonies
Children of God (now known as the Family)
Mormans
World Wide Church of God (Garner Ted Armstrong - who by the way use to be part of the JW organization and was one of its contributing leaders., his son now has an offshoot organization.)
The David Carresh (sp) - group
Jim Jones' group (their name escapes me)
Someone in a previous note mentioned 'Unity', but that church IS Trinitarian, so therefore I doubt someone would consider them a 'cult'....
Incidentally, the organization my brother was a part of, one of the Big time "Faith Healers' Kara Koffman (sp) she was suied for Fraud. This individual at one of her 'gatherings' sat in an empty wheelchair simply because there was no where else to sit and they came in late. Well, Kara had her ushers - usher the wheelchair (person and all) up to the stage and told them to STAND, you are HEALED, (well course they stood up, and the audience rejoiced). Imagine if you were in this situation? What would you have done? Taken the mic and told the audience the truth? Well this person simply walked off the stage.. and later filed the lawsuit.
Anyway --- It was a bunch of people who obviously were Strick Trinitatians that wrote that CULT BOOK I saw in the 70s. Still, I never defined TWI or any of them as Cults.
I would say, however that many Groups have proven themselves Deceptive (cult or otherwise).
Many were motivated by greed, money, and power.
Various leaders of these organizations let the power go to their heads.
Dr. Phil recently opened the public's eyes to a few who were abusing young children as part of their Cause for God. That was a good thing to get the public aware of what was happening to innocent children. There are so many 'messed up minds' out there from these dangerous groups.
I bet, Catholic included, you could find People in leadership positions "taking advantage of their power, and molesting children, or using their position to commit adultery", AND they get to STAY in their POWERFUL POSITIONS. The All powerful Assemblies of God had a guy like that, An Evangelist for crying out loud. He was hiring prostitutes and having 'god knows what' going on to pleasure himself in motel rooms. His name escapes me. There was a Baptist Evangelist who traded in his position (He was known as the Chaplain of Burbon Street) He was big in the 70s, then he 'couldn't beat them, so he joined them', and dissappeared out of the Fold. Oh, there are SO MANY OTHERS who have used their power to 'control, manipulate, and deceive'. There are offshoots of Mormonism that have gone into communities where they aren' t controlled by 'county or city' jurisdictions and take on many wives.
I lived in a town called Arlington WA - there was a group called "The Israel Family", they lived communally, on a farm where they raised Garlic, and Hemp. Big Drug sales occurred there, AND the leader "Love Israel", he and his 'wives and children' lived off the wealth of others, had a NICE place, and the rest had huts with no electricity. They changed all their names, like to "Charish Israel, "Grace Israel, and so forth". They schooled their children til High School and then brought their kids 'pot and drugs', and then those kids influenced others in the school. No one could stop them. They had a garlic festival every year (kinda reminded me of ROA, only old hippies). People from all over the USA and the World attended their festivals.
I have had Mormons (LDS) in my family and many friends who were. If there is one organization out there that is doing right by their families, I have to say they impress me by their lives and the standards and morals they live by. (I bet you'll find someone in that group that has been a poor example too.) I would not become a Mormon, cause I do not agree with some of their doctrine, but I Will not Judge them. Even tho JWs have a messed up way of thinking (in my opinion) you don't hear too many things about them and 'sexual misconduct', although I do know a personal case in my family when my Sister was in the group in CA. One of the gals in her congregation was babysitting her kids, and was inappropriate with them. This was the wake up call for my sister to leave that group.
The bible says we will "Know them by their fruit", and attest to their works.
Still I won't judge any one person based on the Organization or the example their Leaders are providing., at the same time I will Not participate in a Ministry that has caused so much pain and misery, has been so judgemental of others (based on their ability to abundantly share).
I look at groups like the Moonies with 'sadness in my heart'. Because I see so many people being CONTROLLED, MANIPULATED, and Deceived...
There is good vs evil in every nationality, and in every religion, and certainly in Politics!
I seriously doubt there is ONE and only ONE true RELIGION. I think its an individual walk. I think people who love and want to serve God need to find fellowship with others whom 'lift them, help them grow spiritually, and accept their uniqueness, and love them unconditionally", and wherever led to serve God that they maintain their FREEDOM of WILL and will take a stand for what is Righteous.
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def59
Well, I got the responses I expected to get. Seems we are a bit sensitive still on the subject.
In this age of tolerance I guess it was too much to ask if someone had groups in mind they might consider dangerous or strange.
We have personality cults all over the place, and some groups that consider themselves to be mainstream.
Temple
Some points I would like you to explain.
Why should we accept the Book of Mormon as equal to the Scriptures. Jesus warned against those adding to the book or taking away.
How do we know that Jesus was witnessing to the natives in Central America while he was dead in Palestine?
What's the deal with the secret services, special underwear and a doctrine that suggests Jesus and Lucifer were brothers?
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templelady
HOw do I know that he was witnessing to the apostles after his resurrection --by faith
Sacred not secret--BTW you can go to the Library of Congress and get /request a copy of the actual serviceSome peole wear crosses, some ministers wear special collars, some wear scapula, or pins, we wear our "garments " so we have a constant reminder of our promises and covenants with God.
You have got to stop reading that anti-Mormon liturature
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jetc57
Concening a group of people who felt it necessary to re-write scripture - is the JWs.
They have their own bible called "The New World Translation of the Scriptures". The only problem witih their 'translation', is they made several boo boos. For instance, their Bible changes were suppose to suport their doctrine and instead it confuses things. They went through and changed the word 'lord', and other things. In this case, the JWs felt it necessary to have a Bible that supported their lies.
Reader's Digest created a Condensed Version of the Bible. (in order to condense, one must take out stuff).
There is another group besides the Morman church who have additional material other than the "King James Bible". The Seventh Day Adventists. The Mormons and the Adventists have 'prophets' one male (Joseph Smith ?), and one female (name escapes me). Both prophets wrote books on things they felt God wanted them to tell the masses. Well, as I recall, VPW also wrote books in addition to the Bible. The book of Mormon does NOT replace the Bible for Mormons, its only a 'supplemental' piece of Literature for study and doctrine. Most all religions have their 'books of doctrine'.
Hey what about the "Dead Sea Scrolls"? Weren't they written way before the "King James"?
Has anyone read any of the books written by a "Bishop Spong"? Anyone seen the studies of the "Jesus Seminar'? These are theories, studies and suggestions all coming from Leaders in Mainstream Christianity. Scholars if you please.
What about Mythology? Or the stories that were created by Indians years ago? Is Mythology older than "Christianity"? (curious, not expressing an opinion here.)
Every organization out there has their Reasons for their 'additional literature'. Its to further indoctrinate their followers to 'trust or believe' them. Oh, to the powers of 'believing' whatever they be! What the mind of man can believe, he can achieve!
People will always 'see things differently'. This is true of colors, events, and philosophy. (to name only a few).
I'm compiling a list of questions I plan to ask God, or Christ when after "the Return" provided they aren't too busy destroying all 'evil'. I just hope that the list is with me and makes it to the "Bema".
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Raf
I'm a little confused on your criticism of the Jehovah's Witnesses with regard to changing the word "Lord." At best, your criticism is incomplete.
The word LORD in the Hebrew Scriptures was generally "YHWH," which JW's translated Jehovah. This was perfectly appropriate and you should not have a problem with it in the slightest.
The New Testament is where it gets tricky, because they used "kurios" (not sure I have the exact transliteration there) when quoting OT passages that contained YHWH. So sometimes inserting "Jehovah" in place of Lord is appropriate in the NT, and sometimes it is not.
In any event, those changes made by the JW's support the truth, not lies.
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jetc57
RAF, are you affiliated with the JWs?
I could get out previous notes I made while I was in the organization and show you all the places where they put in the word Jehovah, or Jesus inplace of the word 'lord' where it WAS NOT appropriate. One thing comes to mind is where it was talking about a woman and her husband, and it was said her husband was her 'lord' in the Bible, in the NWT is said Jehovah (I believe).
You are protective of the JWs, is this because you are among them? If so, I caution you against this group. They are fear motivated., among other things, but hey, you and others should follow your hearts. I personally have found many of their doctrine full of mis-truths. For instance, do you REALLY believe Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel? There would be more. I've made it my passion to try and FORGET about the indoctrination I went through within that Group.....
At any rate, I didn't intend for my comments to 'offend' but perhaps if you want to start a post in support of the JW's so many TRUTHS, I'd be glad to dig up my notes.
I'D ALSO be happy to share with you years of Horror that occurred all in the name of that Organization. How a man disowned his family because they did not become JWs. OH, I could write a book. Have you ANY idea what takes place in their Headquarters? Russel and Rutherford were in no way Biblical Scholars....
Blessings
Jeannette
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TheEvan
I don't think that stance on the Trinity has ever been a benchmark for cult status. If it were so, the United Pentecostal Church and a host of other Pentecostal denominations would be cults.
Apparently, those who define cults as being at odds with orthodoxy need a bit more than an unorthodox doctrine of the Godhead to make the cut.
Since many of the cult lists of the past have listed JW's & LDS as cults, TWI would have to be down teh list a piece. Even at its largest it was small compared to them.
I define a cult as being something that makes my "cult sniffer alarm" go off: They're hustling for money, they're the one true 'thang', they separate you from your family, they have extensive insider lingo, etc. Enough of that, taken together, qualifies for me. On that subjective basis, JW & LDS don't make the cut, despite from some beliefs that strike me as peculiar.
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jetc57
The Evan:
I was baffled by the notion that the United Pentecostal Church didn't believe in the Trinity! Because for years growing up that's all I heard my Aunt and Uncle fuss about was how my Dad's religion were Anti-christ. BUT, hey I located a web site, which I have inserted the link to below.
I am very amazed, and I apologize for doubting your word, Evan. Perhaps through the years they have changed their teachings? At any case, here is a link as to what they now believe.
http://www.upci.org/doctrine/#60%20Questio...20the%20Godhead
Very interesting.. I thank you for pointing this out to me.
As I mentioned in a post way before todays, the Cult book I was introduced to, well it was written in the Early 70s.. and by the way, it did include TWI in its list of dangerous organizations.
Regarding what organizations have added or taken away from the original Scriptures, I simply found it interesting how the JWs had to re-write the Bible, and when they did, it had massave boo boos, typos if you will, and to this day they will write articles that try to explain and or correct the mistakes.
Since Christ has promised a 'Second Return' I think our focus ought to be on "How do we identify the Anti-Christ" so we are not fooled into Following after the Wrong one?
I think the most Dangerous of Cults are those whose leaders CLAIM to be GOD or the Messiah!!
We have to be on guard and our spiritual discernment in tact,, and the only way that can happen (in my opinion) is prayer and an individual walk with God....
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TheEvan
Dangerous only to the kooks who join them. Few, outside the Moonies, ever garnered a sizeable following.
Incidentally, a friend's brother in law has come to believe that he is the prophet Elijah, or at times, Jesus. If you call him on the phone he'll answer "Jesus speaking!"
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jetc57
Your right, To qualify my statement I should of said "Dangerous to those who Believe that non-sense.". My first father-in-law, who is Greek use to always tell me "I'm the Jesus". but I assure you, he was only kidding.
Its amazing to me how people will just blindly believe some of the stuff they hear.
The moonies are still very active, but if you looked at the size of organizations out there, The Family has quite a following itself. They are in other countries besides the USA. While the group founded by "Jim Jones" seemed to have lost many followers including the leader, to the 'koolaid incident', they still exist (not all of the committed suicide).
The Harry Chrishnas (sp) they still exist today, too. You can find them promoting their religion at colleges even now. Not too many years ago there was this group that thought Space Ships were coming for them. (A mass suicide in CA, I believe from that organization.)
Waco had its Cult, too, and not all of them Died, either. That group reformed into 'splinters' too.
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Jbarrax
That's both funny and sad.
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WordWolf
[ WordWolf in brackets and boldface as of old... ]
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GrouchoMarxJr
Evan...could you give me the phone number?...This might fit in on the "revelation" thread that I started. :lol:
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jetc57
Wolf : Excuse me for ASKING questions. I obviously DO NOT KNOW Raf like you do. I merely asked, I DID NOT ACCUSE nor did I CONDEMN. It just seemed he got pretty defensive when I pointed out that The JWs also had their own translation of the Bible.
I will certainly think TWICE before making any further POSTS.....
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