Branch wierwillians....lol would have been much more honest anyway.
No wonder martindale needed to eradicate him from twi memory buy getting rid of the classes and books....the activities..........there wasn`t any room for him in there with wierwilles ego.
Wonder if he wouldda changed the name himself if he had stuck around long enough.
I believe the phrase is "father IN the word" not OF! Scripture for this is 1 Cor. 4:15. He did a teaching called the four fathers of the believer. 1) God, heavenly father 2) Abraham, father of all them that believe 3) your dad, earthly father and 4) FITW.
I believe the phrase is "father IN the word" not OF! Scripture for this is 1 Cor. 4:15. He did a teaching called the four fathers of the believer. 1) God, heavenly father 2) Abraham, father of all them that believe 3) your dad, earthly father and 4) FITW.
johniam,
Yeah.....that's probably it. It never did take anchor.......except for some of the top leaders, like lcm & cgeer & townsxnd who pushed this mog-worship.
That verse is a quantum leap.....to get veepee as "father in the word."
Like veepee "fathered" twi in BG Leonard's class, some 50s pop-psychology, some Stiles and Bullinger, some private interpretation.......and SHAZAM, veepee is the 20th Century "father-figure."
According to Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve......vpw took BG Leonard's class on Receiving the holy spirit.....TWO TIMES before running back to Ohio and teaching it as his own foundational class.
1) Vpw sat in BG's class................in March 1953
2) Vpw took Mrs. W. & Don...........in June/July 1953
3) Vpw taught BG's class in Ohio....in October 1953
This first "pfal class" had NO materials, NO syllabus, NO handouts, NO nothing.
Yep, your "father IN the word"............STOLE the foundational class. Twi historical photos use this "first class" to illustrate twi's first pfal class.
:P
Does that make BG Leonard........the "FATHER of the father in the Word" (??)
quote: Does that make BG Leonard........the "FATHER of the father in the Word" (??)
It may make him VPs father in the word, but there is no "grandfather in the word". ! Cor 4:15-17 shows that there was a bonding between Paul and those he had "begotten through the gospel". I was familiar with VP but not with BG Leonard.
Father in the word?...How about son of a bi*ch instead?
The whole concept is erroneous and is derived from twisting scriptures...Wierwille modeled his "ministry" after the example of Moses...he needed something in the new testament to justify his egotistical position....(drum roll please)...
..."Father in the word"! That's the ticket...Wierwille was consumed by his own image...everything was about him. He was selfish, insecure, mean, dishonest, and hurtful. He put himself up on a pedestal. You want to keep bowing down to his ego?...Not me. He's not my "father in the word"...He's a grifter that conned me for awhile.
My Christian faith is based upon the Rock...Christ.
Father in the word?...How about son of a bi*ch instead?
The whole concept is erroneous and is derived from twisting scriptures...Wierwille modeled his "ministry" after the example of Moses...he needed something in the new testament to justify his egotistical position....(drum roll please)...
..."Father in the word"! That's the ticket...Wierwille was consumed by his own image...everything was about him. He was selfish, insecure, mean, dishonest, and hurtful. He put himself up on a pedestal. You want to keep bowing down to his ego?...Not me. He's not my "father in the word"...He's a grifter that conned me for awhile.
My Christian faith is based upon the Rock...Christ.
Well,
twisting some Scriptures and completely disregarding others.
The most obvious disregarded one, to me, is
Matthew 23:9.
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father,
quote: Does that make BG Leonard........the "FATHER of the father in the Word" (??)
It may make him VPs father in the word, but there is no "grandfather in the word". ! Cor 4:15-17 shows that there was a bonding between Paul and those he had "begotten through the gospel". I was familiar with VP but not with BG Leonard.
johniam,
Hmmmmm......so then, my minister (during my teenage years) who taught me truths from Romans and showed me the new birth, and prayed with me, and was a father-figure to me..............he is MY "father in the Word." (??)
Well, I guess there is sort of a "spiritual-father-relationship" from my minister......from years ago. And, if I had this type of upbringing.............how many others did as well???? And therefore, THAT is a far cry from a dictated, public endorsement that WIERWILLE IS MY FATHER IN THE WORD (cough, cough) because he hawked a film/vido class.
Gee, in the scope of things.......
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in alcoholism
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in betrayal
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in habitual lying
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in adultery
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in marketing scams
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in splinter groups
quote: so then, my minister (during my teenage years) who taught me truths from Romans and showed me the new birth, and prayed with me, and was a father-figure to me..............he is MY "father in the Word." (??)
Yes!!! Nobody ever said VP was the only father in the word. Yes, a minister whose ministry taught people the word would be the same thing. I was in TWI from 77 - 94 and during the first few years especially, there seemed to be countless people, ordained or not, corps or not, who could teach effectively and meet peoples' needs and the support system was good. VP didn't do everything, but enough people cared that individual needs were met even if it was your first twig you ever attended.
Churches are just as capable of meeting peoples' needs. Martin Luther was a father in the word to the people he ministered to. I just don't think it's idolatry to call someone father in the word.
I do, in the context of how it was promoted and stated in TWI.
"Call no man Father" that is a pretty clear exhortation.
I first heard some of this as early as 1974 when I first took PFAL. The WOW's who witnessed to me CLEARLY stated that Dr. Wierwille was the "man of God of the world". Many used that phrase during those years.
Man of God of the World??
Later the expanded definition was he was "THE Man of God for our day and time for the entire world." I believed it for a short while. Later I began to seriously doubt it. Having come from a Catholic background in the 50's it was a little to Pope-ish for my taste.
Didn't they used to call the Pope THE Vicar of Christ, THE sole reperesentative of Christ to man for the world? Infallible when speaking on matters of "faith and MORALS."?? Something like that.
Scary parallels. I began to see it as a crock.
Inspired, yes. Father in the Word, no way!! Not mine. No more than the Pope was.
Churches are just as capable of meeting peoples' needs. Martin Luther was a father in the word to the people he ministered to. I just don't think it's idolatry to call someone father in the word.
johniam,
When I see things like......"vpw is your father in the word".......or vp calling the corps, "my kids"....... just doesn't sit right with me. Some verses that come to mind are as follows:
I Cor. 1:12,13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Naming names.....and chest-thumping are contrary to the purposes of God.
Let's just bring this up to modern-day terminology, shall we??? Are you of Victor Paul? Was Victor Paul crucified for you? or were you holy spirit baptized in the name of Victor Paul?
It seems to me another strategic reason for VPW's use of the term, "Father," has to do with manipulative exploitation of the transference phenomenon. This was just another way utilized by VPW to induce unhealthy dependency on VPW specifically & TWI in general.
Sigmund Freud first identified the psychological process of transference and brought it into what is now modern day psychotherapy. As a therapist he noticed that people had strong feelings and fantasies about him that had no basis in reality. But Freud died before there was such a thing as "rock and roll." Transference has become a more modern concept since Freud. In fact, many people believe transference is actually something that happens in life - and not just psychotherapy.
What is Transference? During transference, people turn into a "biological time machine". A nerve is struck when someone says or does something that reminds you of your past. This creates an "emotional time warp" that transfers your emotional past and your psychological needs into the present. In less poetic terms, a transference reaction means that you are reacting to someone in terms of what you need to see, you are afraid of or what you see when you know very little about the person. This all happens without you knowing why you feel and react the way you do.
What Is Projection? Some people refer to transference as a "projection." In this case you are projecting your own feelings, emotions or motivations into another person without realizing your reaction is really more about you than it is about the other person. In a life filled with transference, your job may be "the family reunion you are avoiding and you are forced to go to each day." In other cases of projection, your girlfriend may remind you of all the irritating things your mother did when you were growing up. Love at first sight is usually a projection – especially if it ends in disaster and you could have seen it coming.
Harmful Patterns. Transference reactions are caused by unmet emotional needs, neglect, seductions and other abuses that transpired when you were a child. In some forms of psychotherapy, a therapist will intentionally create or allow transference to form. When done properly, this helps a therapist to understand and find a connection between the patient's past and how the patient misreads the present and may react ineffectively. Once you discover a transference pattern, you can chose to respond in terms of what is really happening instead of what happened 20 or 30 years ago. People who don't recognize the difference between past and present can end up in the same messed–up relationships over and over or with the same problem over and over.
Extreme Transference. In an extreme form of transference, you may conclude that someone is an awful or evil person when in fact that person's favorite food and television show reminds you of an emotionally abusive mother and a sexually abusive brother you have been trying to forget since childhood. That's an example of negative transference. A warm, supportive and kind person could remind you of what you are missing and wanting in their life. You might then idealize that person and begin to see him or her as wonderful beyond belief. The idea is that you will react to your therapist based on your experience with another person. This is usually a parent that the patient has an unresolved conflict with. In extreme cases a patient will become overly attached to their therapist or they will enter into and create conflicts without realizing how.
Transference Melt-Downs. Extreme forms of transference can turn into a full-blown obsession if it is not dealt with. Transference "meltdowns" can result in accidents, dangerous choices, nightmares, fantasies, stalking someone, psychotic reactions and sometimes violence. While it does not happen frequently in therapy, it can happen in the patient's personal life.
How Can You Tell? How do you know you are having a "transference reaction"? It's not always easy, but you probably are if you know very little about a therapist (or anyone) and you are having a powerful reaction that is not justifiable to a reasonable person. It can be difficult if the patient can rationalize their reactions. Having a strong sexual attraction to your therapist is almost always a transference reaction, unless of course your therapist is actually hitting on you – and they're not supposed to do that on purpose. Intentionally seducing a vulnerable patient in sick and wrong! In fact that applies to any health-related profession or any employer-employee relationship. Becoming angry at you therapist as if they were a parent is a good sign that there is a transference reaction. Termination of treatment pre-maturely is another sign of transference - unless the therapist is just doing a bad job.
Counter-Transference. Therapists and other health care professionals can also have transference reactions while treating a patient. It's a two way street. Counter-transference is basically a therapist's "emotional time warp" around their patient's transference. In other words, counter-transference is a therapist's counter- reaction. That's why some therapists think they are falling in love with their patients. That's also why older guys become obsessed with younger female employees they barely know.
Ethics And The Law. A therapist, counselor and even a physician could possibly lose their license for seducing or sleeping with a patient they are treating. Trying to seduce an employee on the job may result in a successful lawsuit. You can also sue a licensed mental health professional for sleeping with you if you are their patient. And employers must follow the law. On the other hand, unlicensed therapist can do almost whatever they want and there may be nothing anyone can do about it. It's hard to sue an employer and win. Unlicensed therapists do not have a "duty" to act within a standard of practice. Employers may not know the law.
Unseen Dangers. Transference can sometimes produce a powerful love or a destructive hatred based on a complete illusion. There can be a loud and painful thud when people act on their transference reactions and the bubble finally bursts. In addition to being embarrassed, it can also backfire. Sometimes people will end up stalking, assaulting or killing someone. Please don't kill yourself or anyone because of some transference from your childhood. And if you think your therapist, or an employer for that matter, is seducing you, tell your therapist, or contact a licensed therapist to talk about it.
Should I or Shouldn't I Risk Transference. Transference is really difficult to recognize, deal with and understand, but it is incredibly interesting. I tend to avoid people who are "oozing" with transference potential. Working with transference, or creating transference in therapy can make a therapist look mystical and brilliant. Cult therapies are based in part on generating positive transference to control and manipulate people. I avoid treatment approaches that artificially inflate my ego, would allow me to control anyone and make me feel powerful. But not everyone feels the way I do about transference. Some counselors and therapists love the power and think they can handle it. A therapist must face transference issues and encourage patients to deal with them as much as possible. In some cases a patient is not able to deal with transference issues and will terminate therapy. While it is regrettable and potentially a lost opportunity, it must be supported.
Skyrider: Well, sure it's possible to use the father relationship and turn it into idolatry, but it's not automatic. Paul said "I have begotten you through the gospel". Can't have a begetting without a father. This same double standard keeps coming up: if I praise Wierwille it's always "give God the praise, for this man was a sinner", but if someone says Wierwille sinned then it's Wierwille's fault, not the devil's.
Say what you want, but I'm not ashamed to say that I couldn't make any sense out of the bible until PFAL.
Say what you want, but I'm not ashamed to say that I couldn't make any sense out of the bible until PFAL.
johniam,
The above statement is LIGHTYEARS AWAY from........the blatant, idolatrous, title-totting, all-inclusive, indoctrinating concept of wierwille as my "father in the word."
IMO, twi crossed the line with this title.........and THAT IS WHY IT NEVER GAINED A WHOLE LOT OF MOMENTUM. Top leaders pushed it......but most weren't buying it.
And in brief.....when the apostle Paul said, "I have begotten you through the gospel"......God called Paul as an apostle and spokesman TO THE GENTILES IN GOD'S DEFINING AGE OF GRACE. The church epistles document this specific calling time and time again.
But hey, johniam........if that "father title" fits like a-hand-in-a-glove in your thinking.......have at it.
This same double standard keeps coming up: if I praise Wierwille it's always "give God the praise, for this man was a sinner", but if someone says Wierwille sinned then it's Wierwille's fault, not the devil's.
john, how do you feel about a person being responsible for their own behavior ?
Skyrider: If I were to say that the group Black Sabbath is the father of heavy metal music, would that be idolatry?
johniam.....I never really followed Black Sabbath or the origins of heavy metal music.
In a round-about way.....you seem to be siding to the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.....and I would totally agree with you that VPW IS THE FATHER OF BRANCH WIERWILLIANS.
I could agree with vpw indoctrinating a sect......and the "father" of it.
Well, John it is entirely a different thng to say Black Sabbath was the father of Metal. (I saw them live in 1970 or 1971??, front row by the way. Awesome concert.)
It would be another thing to say Ozzie Osborn was MY father in Metal, and if I were to listen to hs doctrine and beliefs and retemorize them and make them my own on a regular basis. That would be a little weird. And I doubt if Ozzie would have put up with it one minute.
In TWI it went beyond a metaphor into serious religious belief. And no one ever told us to stop using that term, not even the man of God of our day and time, our father in the Word, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille.
Somehow I think Craig wanted that same adulation, but it never quite went that far with him. Although we were NEVER alowed to use the term CRAIG in TWI 2. It was grounds for getting kicked out in a heartbeat. It was Rev. Martindale or nothing!
I always took the FITW thing as benign. I heard the 'Four fathers of the believer' teaching and occasionally people would use the phrase, but it wasn't a big deal. I was a twig cordo for 2 yrs and even in the meetings I got to go to they never made a big deal about it.
I think sometimes people would just shoot off their mouths independently of anything VP ever said or intended. I heard someone say matter of factly once that VP was an apostle and therefore he SAW Jesus. He based it on the scripture where Paul says "Am I not an apostle; have I not seen Jesus our Lord", or something like that. There was never a SNS teaching with that on it that I'm aware of. Just one guy one time thinking out loud. Makes me wonder what ELSE people might have said like that.
I never saw Black Sabbath, but I saw Ozzy from 7th row in '03. Glad I had ear plugs.
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rascal
Branch wierwillians....lol would have been much more honest anyway.
No wonder martindale needed to eradicate him from twi memory buy getting rid of the classes and books....the activities..........there wasn`t any room for him in there with wierwilles ego.
Wonder if he wouldda changed the name himself if he had stuck around long enough.
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skyrider
You mean like.........Loy's Boys and Toys
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johniam
I believe the phrase is "father IN the word" not OF! Scripture for this is 1 Cor. 4:15. He did a teaching called the four fathers of the believer. 1) God, heavenly father 2) Abraham, father of all them that believe 3) your dad, earthly father and 4) FITW.
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skyrider
johniam,
Yeah.....that's probably it. It never did take anchor.......except for some of the top leaders, like lcm & cgeer & townsxnd who pushed this mog-worship.
That verse is a quantum leap.....to get veepee as "father in the word."
Like veepee "fathered" twi in BG Leonard's class, some 50s pop-psychology, some Stiles and Bullinger, some private interpretation.......and SHAZAM, veepee is the 20th Century "father-figure."
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skyrider
johniam,
According to Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve......vpw took BG Leonard's class on Receiving the holy spirit.....TWO TIMES before running back to Ohio and teaching it as his own foundational class.
1) Vpw sat in BG's class................in March 1953
2) Vpw took Mrs. W. & Don...........in June/July 1953
3) Vpw taught BG's class in Ohio....in October 1953
This first "pfal class" had NO materials, NO syllabus, NO handouts, NO nothing.
Yep, your "father IN the word"............STOLE the foundational class. Twi historical photos use this "first class" to illustrate twi's first pfal class.
:P
Does that make BG Leonard........the "FATHER of the father in the Word" (??)
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johniam
quote: Does that make BG Leonard........the "FATHER of the father in the Word" (??)
It may make him VPs father in the word, but there is no "grandfather in the word". ! Cor 4:15-17 shows that there was a bonding between Paul and those he had "begotten through the gospel". I was familiar with VP but not with BG Leonard.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Father in the word?...How about son of a bi*ch instead?
The whole concept is erroneous and is derived from twisting scriptures...Wierwille modeled his "ministry" after the example of Moses...he needed something in the new testament to justify his egotistical position....(drum roll please)...
..."Father in the word"! That's the ticket...Wierwille was consumed by his own image...everything was about him. He was selfish, insecure, mean, dishonest, and hurtful. He put himself up on a pedestal. You want to keep bowing down to his ego?...Not me. He's not my "father in the word"...He's a grifter that conned me for awhile.
My Christian faith is based upon the Rock...Christ.
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WordWolf
Well,
twisting some Scriptures and completely disregarding others.
The most obvious disregarded one, to me, is
Matthew 23:9.
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father,
which is in heaven."
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skyrider
johniam,
Hmmmmm......so then, my minister (during my teenage years) who taught me truths from Romans and showed me the new birth, and prayed with me, and was a father-figure to me..............he is MY "father in the Word." (??)
Well, I guess there is sort of a "spiritual-father-relationship" from my minister......from years ago. And, if I had this type of upbringing.............how many others did as well???? And therefore, THAT is a far cry from a dictated, public endorsement that WIERWILLE IS MY FATHER IN THE WORD (cough, cough) because he hawked a film/vido class.
Gee, in the scope of things.......
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in alcoholism
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in betrayal
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in habitual lying
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in adultery
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in marketing scams
........maybe wierwille is someone's father in splinter groups
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johniam
quote: so then, my minister (during my teenage years) who taught me truths from Romans and showed me the new birth, and prayed with me, and was a father-figure to me..............he is MY "father in the Word." (??)
Yes!!! Nobody ever said VP was the only father in the word. Yes, a minister whose ministry taught people the word would be the same thing. I was in TWI from 77 - 94 and during the first few years especially, there seemed to be countless people, ordained or not, corps or not, who could teach effectively and meet peoples' needs and the support system was good. VP didn't do everything, but enough people cared that individual needs were met even if it was your first twig you ever attended.
Churches are just as capable of meeting peoples' needs. Martin Luther was a father in the word to the people he ministered to. I just don't think it's idolatry to call someone father in the word.
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igotout
I do, in the context of how it was promoted and stated in TWI.
"Call no man Father" that is a pretty clear exhortation.
I first heard some of this as early as 1974 when I first took PFAL. The WOW's who witnessed to me CLEARLY stated that Dr. Wierwille was the "man of God of the world". Many used that phrase during those years.
Man of God of the World??
Later the expanded definition was he was "THE Man of God for our day and time for the entire world." I believed it for a short while. Later I began to seriously doubt it. Having come from a Catholic background in the 50's it was a little to Pope-ish for my taste.
Didn't they used to call the Pope THE Vicar of Christ, THE sole reperesentative of Christ to man for the world? Infallible when speaking on matters of "faith and MORALS."?? Something like that.
Scary parallels. I began to see it as a crock.
Inspired, yes. Father in the Word, no way!! Not mine. No more than the Pope was.
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skyrider
johniam,
When I see things like......"vpw is your father in the word".......or vp calling the corps, "my kids"....... just doesn't sit right with me. Some verses that come to mind are as follows:
I Cor. 1:12,13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Naming names.....and chest-thumping are contrary to the purposes of God.
Let's just bring this up to modern-day terminology, shall we??? Are you of Victor Paul? Was Victor Paul crucified for you? or were you holy spirit baptized in the name of Victor Paul?
See what I mean??????????
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jkboehme
It seems to me another strategic reason for VPW's use of the term, "Father," has to do with manipulative exploitation of the transference phenomenon. This was just another way utilized by VPW to induce unhealthy dependency on VPW specifically & TWI in general.
Transference: Are you a biological time machine?
Published in "The Source", June, 2001
Revised: October 17, 2005
By:
Michael G. Conner, Psy.DSigmund Freud first identified the psychological process of transference and brought it into what is now modern day psychotherapy. As a therapist he noticed that people had strong feelings and fantasies about him that had no basis in reality. But Freud died before there was such a thing as "rock and roll." Transference has become a more modern concept since Freud. In fact, many people believe transference is actually something that happens in life - and not just psychotherapy.
What is Transference? During transference, people turn into a "biological time machine". A nerve is struck when someone says or does something that reminds you of your past. This creates an "emotional time warp" that transfers your emotional past and your psychological needs into the present. In less poetic terms, a transference reaction means that you are reacting to someone in terms of what you need to see, you are afraid of or what you see when you know very little about the person. This all happens without you knowing why you feel and react the way you do.
What Is Projection? Some people refer to transference as a "projection." In this case you are projecting your own feelings, emotions or motivations into another person without realizing your reaction is really more about you than it is about the other person. In a life filled with transference, your job may be "the family reunion you are avoiding and you are forced to go to each day." In other cases of projection, your girlfriend may remind you of all the irritating things your mother did when you were growing up. Love at first sight is usually a projection – especially if it ends in disaster and you could have seen it coming.
Harmful Patterns. Transference reactions are caused by unmet emotional needs, neglect, seductions and other abuses that transpired when you were a child. In some forms of psychotherapy, a therapist will intentionally create or allow transference to form. When done properly, this helps a therapist to understand and find a connection between the patient's past and how the patient misreads the present and may react ineffectively. Once you discover a transference pattern, you can chose to respond in terms of what is really happening instead of what happened 20 or 30 years ago. People who don't recognize the difference between past and present can end up in the same messed–up relationships over and over or with the same problem over and over.
Extreme Transference. In an extreme form of transference, you may conclude that someone is an awful or evil person when in fact that person's favorite food and television show reminds you of an emotionally abusive mother and a sexually abusive brother you have been trying to forget since childhood. That's an example of negative transference. A warm, supportive and kind person could remind you of what you are missing and wanting in their life. You might then idealize that person and begin to see him or her as wonderful beyond belief. The idea is that you will react to your therapist based on your experience with another person. This is usually a parent that the patient has an unresolved conflict with. In extreme cases a patient will become overly attached to their therapist or they will enter into and create conflicts without realizing how.
Transference Melt-Downs. Extreme forms of transference can turn into a full-blown obsession if it is not dealt with. Transference "meltdowns" can result in accidents, dangerous choices, nightmares, fantasies, stalking someone, psychotic reactions and sometimes violence. While it does not happen frequently in therapy, it can happen in the patient's personal life.
How Can You Tell? How do you know you are having a "transference reaction"? It's not always easy, but you probably are if you know very little about a therapist (or anyone) and you are having a powerful reaction that is not justifiable to a reasonable person. It can be difficult if the patient can rationalize their reactions. Having a strong sexual attraction to your therapist is almost always a transference reaction, unless of course your therapist is actually hitting on you – and they're not supposed to do that on purpose. Intentionally seducing a vulnerable patient in sick and wrong! In fact that applies to any health-related profession or any employer-employee relationship. Becoming angry at you therapist as if they were a parent is a good sign that there is a transference reaction. Termination of treatment pre-maturely is another sign of transference - unless the therapist is just doing a bad job.
Counter-Transference. Therapists and other health care professionals can also have transference reactions while treating a patient. It's a two way street. Counter-transference is basically a therapist's "emotional time warp" around their patient's transference. In other words, counter-transference is a therapist's counter- reaction. That's why some therapists think they are falling in love with their patients. That's also why older guys become obsessed with younger female employees they barely know.
Ethics And The Law. A therapist, counselor and even a physician could possibly lose their license for seducing or sleeping with a patient they are treating. Trying to seduce an employee on the job may result in a successful lawsuit. You can also sue a licensed mental health professional for sleeping with you if you are their patient. And employers must follow the law. On the other hand, unlicensed therapist can do almost whatever they want and there may be nothing anyone can do about it. It's hard to sue an employer and win. Unlicensed therapists do not have a "duty" to act within a standard of practice. Employers may not know the law.
Unseen Dangers. Transference can sometimes produce a powerful love or a destructive hatred based on a complete illusion. There can be a loud and painful thud when people act on their transference reactions and the bubble finally bursts. In addition to being embarrassed, it can also backfire. Sometimes people will end up stalking, assaulting or killing someone. Please don't kill yourself or anyone because of some transference from your childhood. And if you think your therapist, or an employer for that matter, is seducing you, tell your therapist, or contact a licensed therapist to talk about it.
Should I or Shouldn't I Risk Transference. Transference is really difficult to recognize, deal with and understand, but it is incredibly interesting. I tend to avoid people who are "oozing" with transference potential. Working with transference, or creating transference in therapy can make a therapist look mystical and brilliant. Cult therapies are based in part on generating positive transference to control and manipulate people. I avoid treatment approaches that artificially inflate my ego, would allow me to control anyone and make me feel powerful. But not everyone feels the way I do about transference. Some counselors and therapists love the power and think they can handle it. A therapist must face transference issues and encourage patients to deal with them as much as possible. In some cases a patient is not able to deal with transference issues and will terminate therapy. While it is regrettable and potentially a lost opportunity, it must be supported.
copyright 2002 to 2005, Michael G. Conner
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johniam
Skyrider: Well, sure it's possible to use the father relationship and turn it into idolatry, but it's not automatic. Paul said "I have begotten you through the gospel". Can't have a begetting without a father. This same double standard keeps coming up: if I praise Wierwille it's always "give God the praise, for this man was a sinner", but if someone says Wierwille sinned then it's Wierwille's fault, not the devil's.
Say what you want, but I'm not ashamed to say that I couldn't make any sense out of the bible until PFAL.
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skyrider
johniam,
The above statement is LIGHTYEARS AWAY from........the blatant, idolatrous, title-totting, all-inclusive, indoctrinating concept of wierwille as my "father in the word."
IMO, twi crossed the line with this title.........and THAT IS WHY IT NEVER GAINED A WHOLE LOT OF MOMENTUM. Top leaders pushed it......but most weren't buying it.
And in brief.....when the apostle Paul said, "I have begotten you through the gospel"......God called Paul as an apostle and spokesman TO THE GENTILES IN GOD'S DEFINING AGE OF GRACE. The church epistles document this specific calling time and time again.
But hey, johniam........if that "father title" fits like a-hand-in-a-glove in your thinking.......have at it.
To me..............no thanks.
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excathedra
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johniam
Skyrider: If I were to say that the group Black Sabbath is the father of heavy metal music, would that be idolatry?
Excathedra: Not a problem, but with VP it's just not going to happen in this life.
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excathedra
what do you think about his past life ?
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johniam
What do you think about his future?
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skyrider
johniam.....I never really followed Black Sabbath or the origins of heavy metal music.
In a round-about way.....you seem to be siding to the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.....and I would totally agree with you that VPW IS THE FATHER OF BRANCH WIERWILLIANS.
I could agree with vpw indoctrinating a sect......and the "father" of it.
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excathedra
johnny i asked you what you thought about his behavior or responsibility for his behavior
(in contrast to giving glory to god or the devil)
and you said it ain't gonna' happen in this life
well what happened in veepee's life really did happen, and i don't think it's wrong to point that out
that's where i was coming from
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igotout
Well, John it is entirely a different thng to say Black Sabbath was the father of Metal. (I saw them live in 1970 or 1971??, front row by the way. Awesome concert.)
It would be another thing to say Ozzie Osborn was MY father in Metal, and if I were to listen to hs doctrine and beliefs and retemorize them and make them my own on a regular basis. That would be a little weird. And I doubt if Ozzie would have put up with it one minute.
In TWI it went beyond a metaphor into serious religious belief. And no one ever told us to stop using that term, not even the man of God of our day and time, our father in the Word, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille.
Somehow I think Craig wanted that same adulation, but it never quite went that far with him. Although we were NEVER alowed to use the term CRAIG in TWI 2. It was grounds for getting kicked out in a heartbeat. It was Rev. Martindale or nothing!
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Oakspear
Wow! Front row! I was in about the ninth or tenth row at Madison Square Garden in 1976. Aerosmith opened for them.
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johniam
I always took the FITW thing as benign. I heard the 'Four fathers of the believer' teaching and occasionally people would use the phrase, but it wasn't a big deal. I was a twig cordo for 2 yrs and even in the meetings I got to go to they never made a big deal about it.
I think sometimes people would just shoot off their mouths independently of anything VP ever said or intended. I heard someone say matter of factly once that VP was an apostle and therefore he SAW Jesus. He based it on the scripture where Paul says "Am I not an apostle; have I not seen Jesus our Lord", or something like that. There was never a SNS teaching with that on it that I'm aware of. Just one guy one time thinking out loud. Makes me wonder what ELSE people might have said like that.
I never saw Black Sabbath, but I saw Ozzy from 7th row in '03. Glad I had ear plugs.
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