Hmmm very thin biblical veneer..........probably explains his christian veneer as well and why he wasn`t the real deal....just a thin covering masking the true quality of the material undernieth.
A pretty veneer can cover for poor quality and shoddy workmanship ....making a piece of cheap crappy furniture appear to be of strength and quality.....
The difference between the genuine and the counterfit, I suppose.
And yet, there are plenty of people in the pagan/Wiccan communities that study Arcana, ceremonial magic, tarot, hermetics, Key of Solomen etc, spell casting, meditation, guided meditation, Eastern religions and philosophies, trance states, gnosticism, Golden Bough etc , are not Christian--and also are not abusing and destroying other people's lives in some type of controlling, manipulative way.
It sure doesn`t speak well for Christianity does it?
The way I see it....either we didn`t understand what it was to be genuine christian.....or our God and religion is messed up.....I choose to place the blame on the guys who assumed that knowledge would bring them spirituality :(
I think that is why *fruit* is a big issue .... there are plenty who claim to be christian....yet are very manipulative and cruel....a direct antithesis to Jesus and everything that he taught.....and then there are those who don`t know or acknowledge the name of Jesus but are doing what he taught....*Love God and Love your neighbor....like the father and the two sons in the bible ...one said he was gonna do what he was supposed to ....the other said he wasn`t but did the job anyway........you had one that looked like they were obedient....and ine who was......you tell me which is doing the will of God?
To my thinking, an authority structure that involves some people obeying the high muck a mucks--and some form of negative consequences to the one who doesn't obey--is potentially dangerous.
...And who could ever forget... "works for saint and sinner alike"...How grifter Vic illustrated this so called "law of believing" with his tale of healing the man's hand in India who didn't believe in Jesus. With Wierwille's teachings, God was no longer needed to bring things to pass...we do it ourselves with our "believing". Essentially, Veepee taught that there was some mysterious power within the human mind that could effect things externally...some folks call that witchcraft.
Non biblical?...For a guy who screamed "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word", the nazi cornfield preacher certainly promoted some very non biblical concepts...
Esotericism generally evokes the concept of secrecy, of a discipline of the arcane, of knowledge limited to groups or associations that are called "secret." It is certainly a truism that familiar things easily lose their charm, that mystery makes for dreams and confers a dimension of depth upon the world – and so esotericists such as Wierwille willingly cultivate mystery.
The etymology of esotericism suggests the view that one has access to the comprehension of symbol, of myth, of reality, only through a personal struggle for progressive elucidation on many successive levels {e.g., Foundational, Intermediate, & Advanced}, that is, through a form of hermeneutics.
Since the beginning of the Renaissance in the late fifteenth century, there was a popular desire to assemble a variety of ancient and medieval writings, in the hope that these writings would constitute a relatively homogeneous whole. There is then born the idea of a prisca theologica, a philosophia occulta, a philosophia perennis, which is essentially a pure, secret, timeless system of metaphysics, endowed with a relative autonomy which is detached from 'theology proper.'
Several streams of thought begin at the end of the fifteenth century and influence one another:
Christian Kabbalah, which is an adaptation of Jewish Kabbalah
Neo-Alexandrian Hermeticism, i.e., the discourse inspired by the ideas of the metaphysical perennial philosophy and the "Primordial Tradition"
A Paracelsian and romantic type of philosophy of Nature (a part of GermanicNaturphilosophie)
Starting from the seventeenth century, Theosophy and Rosicrucianism (beginning in Germanic countries), as well as later groups (initiatic societies more or less arising in their wake)
Western esotericism is composed of three traditional "sciences:" alchemy, astrology, and theurgic magic, this latter "science" associated with some of VPW's & LCM's favorite AC 'junk table' remnants, i.e., arithmosophy, numerics, & gematria.
Alchemy involves the personal experience of transmutation and metamorphosis. This illuminated knowledge promotes a "second birth" of deep insight, termed "gnosis." This "science" attempts to uncover the relationship of humankind to the cosmos, working from the premise of "as above, so below." Hermetic alchemy appears to have developed as an extension of Hermetic astrology, proceeding from the notion of a sympathetic correspondence between particular planets and metals. Its "secrets" are sublime and ineffable.
Per VPW, the greatest "law" in all of life is the so-called "law of believing." Recall the camera analogy. Recall believing images of victory. The alchemy of believing is that supposedly, one can take a thought such as an object of desire, dwell on it, picture and confess the attainment of it, act on this 'positive confession,' and actually achieve the desired results. The fundamentals of the so-called TWI-styled "renewed mind" involve the alchemical transmutation and butterfly metamorphosis from one mode of thinking {one's true historical self} to a supposedly new and improved waybrain way of thinking {the TWI-induced synthetic pseudo-self & pseudo-identity}.
Astrology, as noted above, proceeds from the notion of a sympathetic correspondence between particular planets and metals. This is then extrapolated to include the study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs.
VPW's JCOPS & JCOP are both chocked full of astrology, which VPW attempts to explain away as 'biblical astronomy.'
Theurgic magic involves the "science" of arithmosophy, numerics, & gematria. Theurgic magic also involves the idea that memory and imagination can be associated to such an extent that they become essentially identical. Thus understood, imagination is a tool for knowledge (gnosis) of the self, of the world, of myth. Imagination in this sense functions as the eye of fire penetrating the surface of appearances in order to make meanings, connections, burst forth, to render the invisible spiritual realm, visible.
Some of TWI's theurgic magic involves the imagination involved in believing images of victory to bring into concretion & fruition the manifestation of the "law of believing." The gnosis implied by the first Way Corp objective fits the description here also: To acquire an in-depth 'spiritual' perception and awareness.
Next installment: the 4 intrinsic elements of modern western esotericism.
I think the "Biblical" was just as much reason for twi's stupidity and brutish antics as anything "non-biblical" being expounded here by yourself; I admittedly have devoted more observation to that side of the picture. The belief that the Bible is infallible, indisputable "God-breathed" word - as expounded by the anti-marcionite, pseudo-Pauline "pastoral epistles" which every serious NT scholar and his uncle for the past century and a half have recognized to be a late, mid-second century production forged almost a hundred years after Paul's head was lopped off at Rome - had just as much influence in shaping twi's warped beliefs as anything coming from the non-biblical sources you cited here.
Would you consider adding to this thread via info regarding Marcion, Montanus, Basilides, Mani, Valentinus, Carpocrates, & others?
I will proceed with an brief survey of the Hermetic Arcane because most ex-twi folks are not familiar with it & how it was a significant component of TWI teachings {which supposedly were the 'God-breathed' 'Word' taught as it had not been taught since the first century}.
Thus VPW's admixture of the Arcane with the 'Biblical,' in my opinion, amounts to deception, fraud, misrepresentation, fraudulent misrepresentation, plagiarism, lying, etc.
Perhaps an area that would be beneficial for you to consider would be the impact of VP's ultradispensationalism on the theology he promoted.
Perhaps another area of interest would be the other scriptures he ignored in light of the ones he exalted...regardless of the dispensation he attributed to a book.
I think that you would have a much better time deconstructing his theology on those bases.
The belief that the Bible is infallible, indisputable "God-breathed" word - as expounded by the anti-marcionite, pseudo-Pauline "pastoral epistles" which every serious NT scholar and his uncle for the past century and a half have recognized to be a late, mid-second century production forged almost a hundred years after Paul's head was lopped off at Rome
O.K., now since neither I nor any of my uncles are not even remotely considered NT scholars, could you make your point in simple terms for the non-theological historians among us? I know (in a nutshell) a little about Marcion (2nd century), started a sect and had some conflict between what was said of God in the Hebrew scriptures and what was being propounded by followers of Jesus and then developed an interpretation of the NT God for his followers based on the canon of the Pauline epistles. Yes?
So are you saying you are in agreement with Marcion's teachings (I'm sure if I read more in the doctrinal section, I'd know where you were coming from)? What are the pseudo-Pauline "pastoral epistles" to which you refer that are recognized to be forged? Are you saying that vpw's teaching that the Bible is infallible and God-breathed, etc. are based on those forgeries and that's why his teachings are warped?
Not challenging you here, just trying to read English and understand your point. :blink:
O.K., now since neither I nor any of my uncles are not even remotely considered NT scholars, could you make your point in simple terms for the non-theological historians among us? I know (in a nutshell) a little about Marcion (2nd century), started a sect and had some conflict between what was said of God in the Hebrew scriptures and what was being propounded by followers of Jesus and then developed an interpretation of the NT God for his followers based on the canon of the Pauline epistles. Yes?
So are you saying you are in agreement with Marcion's teachings (I'm sure if I read more in the doctrinal section, I'd know where you were coming from)? What are the pseudo-Pauline "pastoral epistles" to which you refer that are recognized to be forged? Are you saying that vpw's teaching that the Bible is infallible and God-breathed, etc. are based on those forgeries and that's why his teachings are warped?
Not challenging you here, just trying to read English and understand your point. :blink:
Thanks,
J.[/b][/color][/size]
Hi Jardinaro,
The epistles of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are categorically referred by scholars as the "Pastoral Epistles", because they purport to be letters of "pastoral" instruction written by Paul to Timothy and Titus.
What I have mentioned about them, of not having been authored by Paul, is nothing new. NT scholarship of the past century - the type of works which Wierwille carted off to his proverbial "gehenna" - cover this topic in regard to the language used in these writings, which are not characteristically "Pauline" in view of the undisputed "genuine" material (e.g., Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians). In addition, the unnamed opponents addressed in the "Pastorals" resemble rival Christian and Gnostic groups of the second century, and even go so far as to make playful mention of the title to a lost Marcionite work, "Antithesis" ("contradictions," 1 Tim.6:20). The writer(s) of these pastoral epistles constructed those works, for one main purpose, of putting words in Paul's mouth to battle their Christian and Gnostic rival churches, and to promote their theology and canon over their competition.
If you're interested in exploring more about this subject of the deutero-Pauline "Pastoral Epistles" (1 & 2 Timothy, Titus), the following is a very brief list of old and new works on the topic which you may acquire through your library or online bookstores (i.e., Amazon) -
"The Problem of the Pastoral Epistles" by P.N. Harrison (1921)
"An Introduction to the New Testament" by Edgar J. Goodspeed
(pp.327ff, 1937 University of Chicago Press)
"Christian Beginnings" by Morton Scott Enslin
(pp.299 ff., 1938 Harper & Bros. Publishers)
"Introduction to the New Testament" by Feine Behm Kummel
(pp.258ff, 1966 Abingdon Press)
"The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings"
by Bart D. Ehrman
(pp.341ff, 2000 Oxford University Press)
The last work listed by Bart Ehrman is newer, very accessible and non-technical to the general reader.
I'm sure there are a multitude of other works that also cover this topic.
On gnosticism, there is the "gnosis archive" online which contains tons of material on the topic - http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/
My (newer) website on the topic of Marcion is located at
...acquire through your library or online bookstores (i.e., Amazon) -
WOW ... that is overwhelming ... but shouldn't that be e.g.? I always think ... i.e. in ether words ... e.g. for egzample. Those are aramaic words I think. ;) I'm not saying this detracts from your obvious knowledge of the deutero-Pauline "Pastoral Epistles" ... as a non technical guy, I was almost inspired to look into that ... till that little mistake .... oops Now I'm wondering if this is just another guy exploring the arcane with the intent of trying to impress young innocent babes e.g. Jardiebay LOL Of course now that you know about eggzample, you won't make that mistake again with the next young woman, but at least jardie will not be taken in ha ha ha ha ha
jardinero ... I thought you were in CA? oh, I guess they have net access there too :) and yes, I know you can take care of yourself, I'm just making bottle of new wine comments ... this bottle is pretty good
But really, marcion ... hmmm ... so Paul was a hack ... but there are original somethings ? good gawd ... all serious scholars agree Paul was a hack?
from your site ...
According to Marcion, Jesus Christ unveiled a new God, which was not the same diety of the Hebrew scriptures. Nor was Jesus, according to Marcion, the Messiah prophesied by the prophets of old - the Messiah to Israel, who was to be a warrior, was still yet to come, to fulfil the national expectations and promises of that nation. But Jesus, who entered into this world from another universe, arrived as a universal savior, to purchase (or,"ransom") the human race from the Old Testament God
Is this the qualude forum? The sci fi section? Scientology? Holy Moly ... another universe? ... how many are there anyway? a new god? how many breasts does she have? You could get my support :)
WOW ... that is overwhelming ... but shouldn't that be e.g.? I always think ... i.e. in ether words ... e.g. for egzample. Those are aramaic words I think. ;) I'm not saying this detracts from your obvious knowledge of the deutero-Pauline "Pastoral Epistles" ... as a non technical guy, I was almost inspired to look into that ... till that little mistake .... oops Now I'm wondering if this is just another guy exploring the arcane with the intent of trying to impress young innocent babes e.g. Jardiebay LOL Of course now that you know about eggzample, you won't make that mistake again with the next young woman, but at least jardie will not be taken in ha ha ha ha ha
jardinero ... I thought you were in CA? oh, I guess they have net access there too :) and yes, I know you can take care of yourself, I'm just making bottle of new wine comments ... this bottle is pretty good
But really, marcion ... hmmm ... so Paul was a hack ... but there are original somethings ? good gawd ... all serious scholars agree Paul was a hack?
from your site ...
According to Marcion, Jesus Christ unveiled a new God, which was not the same diety of the Hebrew scriptures. Nor was Jesus, according to Marcion, the Messiah prophesied by the prophets of old - the Messiah to Israel, who was to be a warrior, was still yet to come, to fulfil the national expectations and promises of that nation. But Jesus, who entered into this world from another universe, arrived as a universal savior, to purchase (or,"ransom") the human race from the Old Testament God
Is this the qualude forum? The sci fi section? Scientology? Holy Moly ... another universe? ... how many are there anyway? a new god?
Rhino-
Thanks for the correction, though I didn't suggest that Paul was a "hack".
Hey, it's a terribly designed, hokey website about Christianity's insane grandfather; what more can I say?
Though I am rather surprised UFologists, Scientologists and even Trekkies haven't emailed me more often.
:)
how many breasts does she have? You could get my support :)
Well then, for a lusty former Wierwillite like yourself -it's not Marcion's God you seek - it's Diana of Ephesus.
Happy New Year! I'm back from Calif. and while my mind was on vacation, I read Danny's post and of course, did not understand his point, but thank you for jumping in and trying to save me from the deutero-Pauline psuedo Marconian crowd.
And anyone who calls me a young, innocent babe is O.K. in my book ;)
Thanks for all the references. I'll give them a look and see if I can piece it all together at some point (non-academic that I am) :blink:
J.
You're welcome Jardinero.
Don't be put off by the "academic" ring to this stuff; some of the older works can be quite dense and intimidating to get through, but more recent works like Ehrman's are done up like Time-Life coffee-table books (with pictures and photographs and "factoid" pages and all that) and are very approachable and enjoyable to read.
Best wishes to you in your quest wherever it should lead you.
Well now, Themex, if the reason for your upset stomach is my link to the Marcionites, then perhaps you'll
develop a new-found appreciation for their rival, the Roman Catholic Church, of whom you
appear to assume the worst elsewhere when in fact, you probably share more in common,
and perhaps even owe more in terms of your understanding of Christianity.
(Glad to be of service, Mark)
;)
Danny
LOL. Thanks, Danny
The funny part about people like him is that, according to the Gospel According to St. Matthew (as I recall, a book not accepted as part of the Marcionite Canon), it will be impossible for his wish to ever be fulfilled (until the bride and bridegroom are reunited temporally). The funnier part is that people like him (who accept Matthew as being canoncial) will never be able to understand my preceding statement, while you (who rejects Matthew as part of the Canon) will understand it perfectly!
Well now, Themex, if the reason for your upset stomach is my link to the Marcionites, then perhaps you'll
develop a new-found appreciation for their rival, the Roman Catholic Church, of whom you
appear to assume the worst elsewhere when in fact, you probably share more in common,
and perhaps even owe more in terms of your understanding of Christianity.
(Glad to be of service, Mark)
;)
Danny
:( No, it is not. The reason for my upset stomach is all the topic "Non- biblical sources of the TWI Practices & Theology" jkboheme has very good information he knows a lot of things, some of them I do not know something, nothing, about and shake my brain. I am impacted. :blink:
VPW's JCOPS & JCOP are both chocked full of astrology, which VPW attempts to explain away as 'biblical astronomy.'
I don't agree with this. Astrology is the belief that the stars influence our lives. Nothing in those two books even remotely suggests such a thing. It only suggests that there are signs in the heavens, concludes that those signs include constellations, and proceeds to show how, in Wierwille and Ernest Martin's opinions, those signs corresponded to events we see in the Bible.
Theology not only draws on biblical sources, but also philosophical sources, and we are getting here a pretty good overview of several of them.
The basic religious follower really has no idea how theology and philosophy are interconnnected, and many find it unnecessary to the application of their religion to their own lives to even delve into.
There is nothing at all wrong with that and does not speak to a person's level of intelligence, just their level of interest and involvement.
However, there are those here and elsewhere who are interested in the history of theology and philosophy and find it fascinating.
There are also those who can find the breadcrumb trail Wierwille left through all these areas and how he concocted his particular brew of toxic religious waste and packaged and sold it as a snake oil cure. I believe that is what Jkb is doing for you all here.
But I think we need a new forum regarding Philosophy and Theology; this doesn't quite fit in "about The Way" or "Doctrinal."
But very interesting discussions indeed, and it will be interesting to see where it leads!
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rascal
Hmmm very thin biblical veneer..........probably explains his christian veneer as well and why he wasn`t the real deal....just a thin covering masking the true quality of the material undernieth.
A pretty veneer can cover for poor quality and shoddy workmanship ....making a piece of cheap crappy furniture appear to be of strength and quality.....
The difference between the genuine and the counterfit, I suppose.
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Bramble
And yet, there are plenty of people in the pagan/Wiccan communities that study Arcana, ceremonial magic, tarot, hermetics, Key of Solomen etc, spell casting, meditation, guided meditation, Eastern religions and philosophies, trance states, gnosticism, Golden Bough etc , are not Christian--and also are not abusing and destroying other people's lives in some type of controlling, manipulative way.
So go figure.
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rascal
It sure doesn`t speak well for Christianity does it?
The way I see it....either we didn`t understand what it was to be genuine christian.....or our God and religion is messed up.....I choose to place the blame on the guys who assumed that knowledge would bring them spirituality :(
I think that is why *fruit* is a big issue .... there are plenty who claim to be christian....yet are very manipulative and cruel....a direct antithesis to Jesus and everything that he taught.....and then there are those who don`t know or acknowledge the name of Jesus but are doing what he taught....*Love God and Love your neighbor....like the father and the two sons in the bible ...one said he was gonna do what he was supposed to ....the other said he wasn`t but did the job anyway........you had one that looked like they were obedient....and ine who was......you tell me which is doing the will of God?
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Bramble
To my thinking, an authority structure that involves some people obeying the high muck a mucks--and some form of negative consequences to the one who doesn't obey--is potentially dangerous.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...And who could ever forget... "works for saint and sinner alike"...How grifter Vic illustrated this so called "law of believing" with his tale of healing the man's hand in India who didn't believe in Jesus. With Wierwille's teachings, God was no longer needed to bring things to pass...we do it ourselves with our "believing". Essentially, Veepee taught that there was some mysterious power within the human mind that could effect things externally...some folks call that witchcraft.
Non biblical?...For a guy who screamed "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word", the nazi cornfield preacher certainly promoted some very non biblical concepts...
...Concepts that served his purposes...
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jkboehme
"Esotericism" elaborated:
Esotericism generally evokes the concept of secrecy, of a discipline of the arcane, of knowledge limited to groups or associations that are called "secret." It is certainly a truism that familiar things easily lose their charm, that mystery makes for dreams and confers a dimension of depth upon the world – and so esotericists such as Wierwille willingly cultivate mystery.
The etymology of esotericism suggests the view that one has access to the comprehension of symbol, of myth, of reality, only through a personal struggle for progressive elucidation on many successive levels {e.g., Foundational, Intermediate, & Advanced}, that is, through a form of hermeneutics.
Since the beginning of the Renaissance in the late fifteenth century, there was a popular desire to assemble a variety of ancient and medieval writings, in the hope that these writings would constitute a relatively homogeneous whole. There is then born the idea of a prisca theologica, a philosophia occulta, a philosophia perennis, which is essentially a pure, secret, timeless system of metaphysics, endowed with a relative autonomy which is detached from 'theology proper.'
Several streams of thought begin at the end of the fifteenth century and influence one another:
Western esotericism is composed of three traditional "sciences:" alchemy, astrology, and theurgic magic, this latter "science" associated with some of VPW's & LCM's favorite AC 'junk table' remnants, i.e., arithmosophy, numerics, & gematria.
Alchemy involves the personal experience of transmutation and metamorphosis. This illuminated knowledge promotes a "second birth" of deep insight, termed "gnosis." This "science" attempts to uncover the relationship of humankind to the cosmos, working from the premise of "as above, so below." Hermetic alchemy appears to have developed as an extension of Hermetic astrology, proceeding from the notion of a sympathetic correspondence between particular planets and metals. Its "secrets" are sublime and ineffable.
Per VPW, the greatest "law" in all of life is the so-called "law of believing." Recall the camera analogy. Recall believing images of victory. The alchemy of believing is that supposedly, one can take a thought such as an object of desire, dwell on it, picture and confess the attainment of it, act on this 'positive confession,' and actually achieve the desired results. The fundamentals of the so-called TWI-styled "renewed mind" involve the alchemical transmutation and butterfly metamorphosis from one mode of thinking {one's true historical self} to a supposedly new and improved waybrain way of thinking {the TWI-induced synthetic pseudo-self & pseudo-identity}.
Astrology, as noted above, proceeds from the notion of a sympathetic correspondence between particular planets and metals. This is then extrapolated to include the study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs.
VPW's JCOPS & JCOP are both chocked full of astrology, which VPW attempts to explain away as 'biblical astronomy.'
Theurgic magic involves the "science" of arithmosophy, numerics, & gematria. Theurgic magic also involves the idea that memory and imagination can be associated to such an extent that they become essentially identical. Thus understood, imagination is a tool for knowledge (gnosis) of the self, of the world, of myth. Imagination in this sense functions as the eye of fire penetrating the surface of appearances in order to make meanings, connections, burst forth, to render the invisible spiritual realm, visible.
Some of TWI's theurgic magic involves the imagination involved in believing images of victory to bring into concretion & fruition the manifestation of the "law of believing." The gnosis implied by the first Way Corp objective fits the description here also: To acquire an in-depth 'spiritual' perception and awareness.
Next installment: the 4 intrinsic elements of modern western esotericism.
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TheInvisibleDan
JK -
I think the "Biblical" was just as much reason for twi's stupidity and brutish antics as anything "non-biblical" being expounded here by yourself; I admittedly have devoted more observation to that side of the picture. The belief that the Bible is infallible, indisputable "God-breathed" word - as expounded by the anti-marcionite, pseudo-Pauline "pastoral epistles" which every serious NT scholar and his uncle for the past century and a half have recognized to be a late, mid-second century production forged almost a hundred years after Paul's head was lopped off at Rome - had just as much influence in shaping twi's warped beliefs as anything coming from the non-biblical sources you cited here.
happy new year.
Danny
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jkboehme
Danny,
Point well taken.
Would you consider adding to this thread via info regarding Marcion, Montanus, Basilides, Mani, Valentinus, Carpocrates, & others?
I will proceed with an brief survey of the Hermetic Arcane because most ex-twi folks are not familiar with it & how it was a significant component of TWI teachings {which supposedly were the 'God-breathed' 'Word' taught as it had not been taught since the first century}.
Thus VPW's admixture of the Arcane with the 'Biblical,' in my opinion, amounts to deception, fraud, misrepresentation, fraudulent misrepresentation, plagiarism, lying, etc.
jkb
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markomalley
jkboehme,
Perhaps an area that would be beneficial for you to consider would be the impact of VP's ultradispensationalism on the theology he promoted.
Perhaps another area of interest would be the other scriptures he ignored in light of the ones he exalted...regardless of the dispensation he attributed to a book.
I think that you would have a much better time deconstructing his theology on those bases.
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jardinero
Hi Danny ~
You said in part
O.K., now since neither I nor any of my uncles are not even remotely considered NT scholars, could you make your point in simple terms for the non-theological historians among us? I know (in a nutshell) a little about Marcion (2nd century), started a sect and had some conflict between what was said of God in the Hebrew scriptures and what was being propounded by followers of Jesus and then developed an interpretation of the NT God for his followers based on the canon of the Pauline epistles. Yes?
So are you saying you are in agreement with Marcion's teachings (I'm sure if I read more in the doctrinal section, I'd know where you were coming from)? What are the pseudo-Pauline "pastoral epistles" to which you refer that are recognized to be forged? Are you saying that vpw's teaching that the Bible is infallible and God-breathed, etc. are based on those forgeries and that's why his teachings are warped?
Not challenging you here, just trying to read English and understand your point. :blink:
Thanks,
J.
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TheInvisibleDan
Hi Jardinaro,
The epistles of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are categorically referred by scholars as the "Pastoral Epistles", because they purport to be letters of "pastoral" instruction written by Paul to Timothy and Titus.
What I have mentioned about them, of not having been authored by Paul, is nothing new. NT scholarship of the past century - the type of works which Wierwille carted off to his proverbial "gehenna" - cover this topic in regard to the language used in these writings, which are not characteristically "Pauline" in view of the undisputed "genuine" material (e.g., Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians). In addition, the unnamed opponents addressed in the "Pastorals" resemble rival Christian and Gnostic groups of the second century, and even go so far as to make playful mention of the title to a lost Marcionite work, "Antithesis" ("contradictions," 1 Tim.6:20). The writer(s) of these pastoral epistles constructed those works, for one main purpose, of putting words in Paul's mouth to battle their Christian and Gnostic rival churches, and to promote their theology and canon over their competition.
If you're interested in exploring more about this subject of the deutero-Pauline "Pastoral Epistles" (1 & 2 Timothy, Titus), the following is a very brief list of old and new works on the topic which you may acquire through your library or online bookstores (i.e., Amazon) -
"The Problem of the Pastoral Epistles" by P.N. Harrison (1921)
"An Introduction to the New Testament" by Edgar J. Goodspeed
(pp.327ff, 1937 University of Chicago Press)
"Christian Beginnings" by Morton Scott Enslin
(pp.299 ff., 1938 Harper & Bros. Publishers)
"Introduction to the New Testament" by Feine Behm Kummel
(pp.258ff, 1966 Abingdon Press)
"The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings"
by Bart D. Ehrman
(pp.341ff, 2000 Oxford University Press)
The last work listed by Bart Ehrman is newer, very accessible and non-technical to the general reader.
I'm sure there are a multitude of other works that also cover this topic.
On gnosticism, there is the "gnosis archive" online which contains tons of material on the topic - http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/
My (newer) website on the topic of Marcion is located at
http://marcionofsinope.netfirms.com/
Danny
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WordWolf
If you gentlemen want to continue this, please continue it in Doctrinal.
Issues of canon vs non-canon are Doctrinal and not "About the Way."
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rhino
jardinero ... I thought you were in CA? oh, I guess they have net access there too :) and yes, I know you can take care of yourself, I'm just making bottle of new wine comments ... this bottle is pretty good
But really, marcion ... hmmm ... so Paul was a hack ... but there are original somethings ? good gawd ... all serious scholars agree Paul was a hack?
from your site ...
According to Marcion, Jesus Christ unveiled a new God, which was not the same diety of the Hebrew scriptures. Nor was Jesus, according to Marcion, the Messiah prophesied by the prophets of old - the Messiah to Israel, who was to be a warrior, was still yet to come, to fulfil the national expectations and promises of that nation. But Jesus, who entered into this world from another universe, arrived as a universal savior, to purchase (or,"ransom") the human race from the Old Testament God
Is this the qualude forum? The sci fi section? Scientology? Holy Moly ... another universe? ... how many are there anyway? a new god? how many breasts does she have? You could get my support :)
Wolf ... how can that be doctrinal? haha
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TheInvisibleDan
Rhino-
Thanks for the correction, though I didn't suggest that Paul was a "hack".
Hey, it's a terribly designed, hokey website about Christianity's insane grandfather; what more can I say?
Though I am rather surprised UFologists, Scientologists and even Trekkies haven't emailed me more often.
:)
Well then, for a lusty former Wierwillite like yourself -it's not Marcion's God you seek - it's Diana of Ephesus.
Look her up in the mythological phonebook.
Danny
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jardinero
Hi Wino..............er, I mean Rhino
Happy New Year! I'm back from Calif. and while my mind was on vacation, I read Danny's post and of course, did not understand his point, but thank you for jumping in and trying to save me from the deutero-Pauline psuedo Marconian crowd.
And anyone who calls me a young, innocent babe is O.K. in my book ;)
J.
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rhino
I was referring to that Diana babe, glad you caught on ...
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jardinero
Hi Danny,
Thanks for all the references. I'll give them a look and see if I can piece it all together at some point (non-academic that I am) :blink:
J.
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TheInvisibleDan
You're welcome Jardinero.
Don't be put off by the "academic" ring to this stuff; some of the older works can be quite dense and intimidating to get through, but more recent works like Ehrman's are done up like Time-Life coffee-table books (with pictures and photographs and "factoid" pages and all that) and are very approachable and enjoyable to read.
Best wishes to you in your quest wherever it should lead you.
Danny
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themex
:blink:
To much for me! :(
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TheInvisibleDan
Well now, Themex, if the reason for your upset stomach is my link to the Marcionites, then perhaps you'll
develop a new-found appreciation for their rival, the Roman Catholic Church, of whom you
appear to assume the worst elsewhere when in fact, you probably share more in common,
and perhaps even owe more in terms of your understanding of Christianity.
(Glad to be of service, Mark)
;)
Danny
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markomalley
LOL. Thanks, Danny
The funny part about people like him is that, according to the Gospel According to St. Matthew (as I recall, a book not accepted as part of the Marcionite Canon), it will be impossible for his wish to ever be fulfilled (until the bride and bridegroom are reunited temporally). The funnier part is that people like him (who accept Matthew as being canoncial) will never be able to understand my preceding statement, while you (who rejects Matthew as part of the Canon) will understand it perfectly!
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themex
:( No, it is not. The reason for my upset stomach is all the topic "Non- biblical sources of the TWI Practices & Theology" jkboheme has very good information he knows a lot of things, some of them I do not know something, nothing, about and shake my brain. I am impacted. :blink:
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Raf
I don't agree with this. Astrology is the belief that the stars influence our lives. Nothing in those two books even remotely suggests such a thing. It only suggests that there are signs in the heavens, concludes that those signs include constellations, and proceeds to show how, in Wierwille and Ernest Martin's opinions, those signs corresponded to events we see in the Bible.
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Catcup
Theology not only draws on biblical sources, but also philosophical sources, and we are getting here a pretty good overview of several of them.
The basic religious follower really has no idea how theology and philosophy are interconnnected, and many find it unnecessary to the application of their religion to their own lives to even delve into.
There is nothing at all wrong with that and does not speak to a person's level of intelligence, just their level of interest and involvement.
However, there are those here and elsewhere who are interested in the history of theology and philosophy and find it fascinating.
There are also those who can find the breadcrumb trail Wierwille left through all these areas and how he concocted his particular brew of toxic religious waste and packaged and sold it as a snake oil cure. I believe that is what Jkb is doing for you all here.
But I think we need a new forum regarding Philosophy and Theology; this doesn't quite fit in "about The Way" or "Doctrinal."
But very interesting discussions indeed, and it will be interesting to see where it leads!
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