Personally, I understand the importance of "thinking" and "speaking" the same thing. Hold on, let me explain...
Any group, whether it be a religious organization, an army, or even our nation's founding fathers, have to get like-minded and say / think the same thing. That is how they will be successful in their collective endeavor. It is HOW you get to that end result where TWI is deficient.
Ronald Reagan said something to the effect of, laws are like hotdogs (or was it sausages), you like the end product, but you would hate to see the process of making it. When the men who signed the Declaration of Independence signed it, do you think that those men were speaking / thinking the same thing? Absolutely.
But what went into that? PLENTY of open, honest, discourse, debate, and even arguments. They didn't just move on because one person said, I'm in charge, I said so....so sign. Kind of like LCM's imfamous "well, maybe you don't see that. Well, I do." comments in his foundational class regarding the first sin of mankind.
TWI has NEVER been good at banging things out until everyone is likeminded, and thus thinking and speaking the same thing. In their apparent arrogance (like in the topic of debt), they simply come down with their edict, and now everyone is to get likeminded and speak the same thing. They assume likemindedness rather than work hard to achieve it. That is arrogant, like King George! And definitely not patriotic!
Im not a part of their organization nor do I feel a need to endorse it. I examine things from an is it true or is it not perspective. Who or where it came from is not of importance to me.
[You've said that "where it came from is not of importance" to you.
You've been posting for a while.
Where it comes from matters to you if it came from vpw.
Are you really unaware of this?
It's in your posts...]
[unless it "came" from vpw-then it must be fought for fiercely.
It strikes me as odd that you're reluctant to admit this.
Frankly, I'd respect you more if you could avoid artifice in this,
and just say "this is my position, period. All my posts will reflect this."
Despite claims otherwise, do you really think most posters would
agree with your appraisal of your own posts, or do you think
they'd consider it non-representative of them?]
You are confused again WW I said unless it is truth then it must be fought for. Big difference!
You've made that claim WHILE demonstrating that
anything supposedly from vpw is a special case,
without typing the WORDS
"anything supposedly from vpw is a special case."
It's a lot like claiming you never taught on money because
you were teaching on tithing, which someone once claimed
was a "BIG DIFFERENCE."
I know the words you typed.
And I know the meaning of them.]
It strikes me as odd that you are too thick to read what I have written a gazillion times and that you insist on telling me what I believe. You know this how?
[i know what you've posted, which, in itself, is indicative
of what you believe. There's a "disconnect" between content and
labelling, apparently, but I just skip to the content most of the time.]
Most people are reluctant to admit things that are not true. And frankly I am not missing any sleep over whether you respect me or not.
[You cared enough to post about it....
But you, of course, can make whatever claims you wish,
and readers are free to read your posts and come to whatever
conclusions they wish.
It strikes me as a little sad that this would be such a hurdle
ya know sometimes i wonder if some of the folks in TWI even realize what freedom of speech means
naturally, they all say they're thankful for freedom of speech
so they can speak the word, witness to people etc.
but dare to ask the wrong person within the group the wrong question or make the wrong comment at the wrong time under the wrong circumstances and all of a sudden it's pariah city for you
and the sad thing is most of the time these "wrong" questions and comments aren't wrong at all
merely innocent queries about things that happen or ideas which are prevailent or statements made
but God help the poor devil who dares to question authority
one time i scared a left leaning individual away from his or her own post over on the political forum
just for asking a question he or she didn't have an answer for
every time someone tried that in TWI, however, THEY kicked you (the questioner) out
and then to add insult to injury they gave you the old "Maude" line "God'll get you for that"
every time someone tried that in TWI, however, THEY kicked you (the questioner) out and then to add insult to injury they gave you the old "Maude" line "God'll get you for that" only they would substitute the adversary for God
This sounds a bit overstated. What you describe didn't happen every time.
When I had questions and/or problems with something that was being done that couldn't be handled on the twig level, or doctrinal problems, I wrote letters to hq, sometimes to VP, sometimes to Craig, sometimes to research dept., sometimes to the Trunk Coord. And at those times I got polite answers. I still have these letters in my files.
The answers weren't always what I wanted to hear... but it was nothing like you described.
It's a lot like claiming you never taught on money because
you were teaching on tithing, which someone once claimed
was a "BIG DIFFERENCE."
I know the words you typed.
And I know the meaning of them.]
I've never said or implied such a thing if you want to make $*@! up go ahead, since you are so big supporting your claims perhaps you can find somewhere that I stated such if not then I suppose we can assume you are delusional.
And by the way I never said I was being persecuted either nor did I say I felt that I was., Nice spin.
What I said is that contrary to what some posters would have us believe there is a bias here I also said that was no surprise to me. Expected! I also said that because of such that the playing field was not level at times Also no big deal What is is when someone tries to tell me it does not exist when it clearly does.
You assume I was complaining ,unhappy, or persecuted not my words YOURS Just stating a fact! Never asked for anyone to feel sorry for me. In fact as I recall I said several times that it was not a problem as long as we own up to it. I'll put this in real big letters for you so maybe you will finally get it.
I don't feel persecuted nor am I complaining, just stating a fact /truth. When you are in the minority opinion or perceived minority opinion then the "playing field" is not level.
WD is a professional at the game of semantics. Throwing synonyms right and left, WD writes paragraphs that leave no doubt as to his position and feelings. However, beware if you are foolish enough to distill his position down to a few explanatory sentences. Use one word not in his posts and you get accused of "making things up" and "I never said that"
Just as a person who says
"Don't expect me to cook breakfast for you again in this lifetime"
Could argue that they never ACTUALLY SAID
"I'll never cook breakfast for you again"
and be correct as to the actual wording--the meaning remains loud and clear.
WD is a professional at the game of semantics. Throwing synonyms right and left, WD writes paragraphs that leave no doubt as to his position and feelings. However, beware if you are foolish enough to distill his position down to a few explanatory sentences. Use one word not in his posts and you get accused of "making things up" and "I never said that"
Well .....it is good to mean what you say and say what you mean! You know what I mean......
The problem with distilling down is that it even though it may resemble the original it never tastes quite like Crown Royal after you are done with your distilling process!!
The stink of sewage? Is that what you think likemindedness is?
Likemindedness is a biblical principle, to be strived for.
In many scriptures, it may even be considered a commandment of the Lord.
I did not compare "likemindedness" as a biblical principle to the stink of sewage. The comparison was to liken what went on in TWI as "the stink of sewage", and GS as a breath of fresh air. The context is freedom of speech.
Golly, I wonder what your views are of the Third Heaven and Earth, and what it will be like?
Golly? Gee, Mr. Cleaver, I don't believe that there will be a third heaven and earth.
For instance, think your wifes Tarot Business will be allowed?
Well, even if there was such a thing as the third heaven & earth, we'd be dead at that the time, so I guess its a moot point. And I suppose since neither of us worship your God, we'd be in the lake of fire or something equally horrible.
The more I think about it Oldiesman, aren't you the guy who has gotten mad when other posters bring your sister into the discussion? Say whatever you need to say to me, but keep my wife out of it.
I did not compare "likemindedness" as a biblical principle to the stink of sewage. The comparison was to liken what went on in TWI as "the stink of sewage", and GS as a breath of fresh air. The context is freedom of speech.
Oakspear, I don't see a difference between biblical/Christian likemindedness, and what we were likeminded on in twi.
What we were likeminded on were biblical truths/concepts, and if a participant wasn't likeminded with other participants, why even be involved in the first place?
Some of it was error, granted; but I don't see how that differs from biblical likemindedness.
If it is different, could you cite some examples?
If you want to make a distinction between Christian likemindedness and what we were likeminded on in twi, please be more specific.
The more I think about it Oldiesman, aren't you the guy who has gotten mad when other posters bring your sister into the discussion? Say whatever you need to say to me, but keep my wife out of it.
Apples and oranges Oakspear.
Your volunteering and posting information about your wife, is totally different than private gossip being posted against someone's wishes.
I assumed that the information you posted about your wife is ok to discuss, since you posted it ... but if not, perhaps you should remove it?
Oakspear, I don't see a difference between biblical/Christian likemindedness, and what we were likeminded on in twi.
Of course you don't.
What we were likeminded on were biblical truths/concepts,
Uh huh. No, it went beyond that. It was a demand to fall into line on much more than "biblical truth", it was a demand to supress any independent thought, and to "hold in abeyance" any insights on the bible and God that differed from the dictates of the fake doctor.
and if a participant wasn't likeminded with other participants, why even be involved in the first place?
and if a participant wasn't as brainwashed as the other participants, why not just get marked and avoided.
Some of it was error, granted; but I don't see how that differs from biblical likemindedness.
Of course you don't
If it is different, could you cite some examples?
Sure.
While Wierwille did teach some bible, he also expected us to take his word on points that could not be documented in the bible.
During the Martindale reign wayfers were expected to conform to his ideas of housekeeping, car maintenance, and grooming or be subject to "confrontation"
Way "believers" were expected to serve leadership in non-biblical ways.
If you want to make a distinction between Christian likemindedness and what we were likeminded on in twi, please be more specific.
I just did. This board is full of other examples.
Apples and oranges Oakspear.
Your volunteering and posting information about your wife, is totally different than private gossip being posted against someone's wishes.
I assumed that the information you posted about your wife is ok to discuss, since you posted it ... but if not, perhaps you should remove it?
It is different in degree, I'll grant you that. And by the way, I don't like the things that have been posted about your sister either.
HOWEVER...
If you assumed that using my wife or her business as examples in your ongoing defense of Wierwille and his cult was okay, think again. It is not. Many of us post personal information. It is a reasonable expectation that that information won't be used as a rhetorical point.
I really don't care if you agree or even understand. I am asking you to not do it again.
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ex10
Can it be a shiner bock snowcone?
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Tom Strange
anything for you dear... amber?
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ex10
Absolutely.
Got Ro-tel, too?
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Patriot
Personally, I understand the importance of "thinking" and "speaking" the same thing. Hold on, let me explain...
Any group, whether it be a religious organization, an army, or even our nation's founding fathers, have to get like-minded and say / think the same thing. That is how they will be successful in their collective endeavor. It is HOW you get to that end result where TWI is deficient.
Ronald Reagan said something to the effect of, laws are like hotdogs (or was it sausages), you like the end product, but you would hate to see the process of making it. When the men who signed the Declaration of Independence signed it, do you think that those men were speaking / thinking the same thing? Absolutely.
But what went into that? PLENTY of open, honest, discourse, debate, and even arguments. They didn't just move on because one person said, I'm in charge, I said so....so sign. Kind of like LCM's imfamous "well, maybe you don't see that. Well, I do." comments in his foundational class regarding the first sin of mankind.
TWI has NEVER been good at banging things out until everyone is likeminded, and thus thinking and speaking the same thing. In their apparent arrogance (like in the topic of debt), they simply come down with their edict, and now everyone is to get likeminded and speak the same thing. They assume likemindedness rather than work hard to achieve it. That is arrogant, like King George! And definitely not patriotic!
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WordWolf
[You've said that "where it came from is not of importance" to you.
You've been posting for a while.
Where it comes from matters to you if it came from vpw.
Are you really unaware of this?
It's in your posts...]
[unless it "came" from vpw-then it must be fought for fiercely.
It strikes me as odd that you're reluctant to admit this.
Frankly, I'd respect you more if you could avoid artifice in this,
and just say "this is my position, period. All my posts will reflect this."
Despite claims otherwise, do you really think most posters would
agree with your appraisal of your own posts, or do you think
they'd consider it non-representative of them?]
You've made that claim WHILE demonstrating thatanything supposedly from vpw is a special case,
without typing the WORDS
"anything supposedly from vpw is a special case."
It's a lot like claiming you never taught on money because
you were teaching on tithing, which someone once claimed
was a "BIG DIFFERENCE."
I know the words you typed.
And I know the meaning of them.]
[i know what you've posted, which, in itself, is indicative
of what you believe. There's a "disconnect" between content and
labelling, apparently, but I just skip to the content most of the time.]
[You cared enough to post about it....
But you, of course, can make whatever claims you wish,
and readers are free to read your posts and come to whatever
conclusions they wish.
It strikes me as a little sad that this would be such a hurdle
to scale, but that's your decision.]
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WordWolf
Doesn't it strike anyone as mildly ironic
that we can go on for pages and pages about how some people
feel persecuted,
without a censor's hand coming in and editing posts?
Seems to me that almost all of us can post WITHOUT
"persecuting" people,
and the exceptions can quickly be brought to the attention
of a moderator,
who can act pretty quickly and rein in anyone acting like a
troll (whether they are one or not).
The difference between
"most people disagree with you" and
"you're being persecuted"
seems pretty clear to most.
As for persecution online, the GSC is small potatoes in that
category. I've been persecuted by EXPERT trolls ELSEWHERE.
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oldiesman
The stink of sewage? Is that what you think likemindedness is?
Likemindedness is a biblical principle, to be strived for.
In many scriptures, it may even be considered a commandment of the Lord.
Golly, I wonder what your views are of the Third Heaven and Earth, and what it will be like?
For instance, think your wifes Tarot Business will be allowed?
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ljn698
ya know sometimes i wonder if some of the folks in TWI even realize what freedom of speech means
naturally, they all say they're thankful for freedom of speech
so they can speak the word, witness to people etc.
but dare to ask the wrong person within the group the wrong question or make the wrong comment at the wrong time under the wrong circumstances and all of a sudden it's pariah city for you
and the sad thing is most of the time these "wrong" questions and comments aren't wrong at all
merely innocent queries about things that happen or ideas which are prevailent or statements made
but God help the poor devil who dares to question authority
one time i scared a left leaning individual away from his or her own post over on the political forum
just for asking a question he or she didn't have an answer for
every time someone tried that in TWI, however, THEY kicked you (the questioner) out
and then to add insult to injury they gave you the old "Maude" line "God'll get you for that"
only they would substitute the adversary for God
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oldiesman
This sounds a bit overstated. What you describe didn't happen every time.
When I had questions and/or problems with something that was being done that couldn't be handled on the twig level, or doctrinal problems, I wrote letters to hq, sometimes to VP, sometimes to Craig, sometimes to research dept., sometimes to the Trunk Coord. And at those times I got polite answers. I still have these letters in my files.
The answers weren't always what I wanted to hear... but it was nothing like you described.
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ljn698
ok ok
maybe not every time to everybody
after all nothing is absolute is it?
but it happened to me enough
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WhiteDove
I've never said or implied such a thing if you want to make $*@! up go ahead, since you are so big supporting your claims perhaps you can find somewhere that I stated such if not then I suppose we can assume you are delusional.
And by the way I never said I was being persecuted either nor did I say I felt that I was., Nice spin.
What I said is that contrary to what some posters would have us believe there is a bias here I also said that was no surprise to me. Expected! I also said that because of such that the playing field was not level at times Also no big deal What is is when someone tries to tell me it does not exist when it clearly does.
You assume I was complaining ,unhappy, or persecuted not my words YOURS Just stating a fact! Never asked for anyone to feel sorry for me. In fact as I recall I said several times that it was not a problem as long as we own up to it. I'll put this in real big letters for you so maybe you will finally get it.
I don't feel persecuted nor am I complaining, just stating a fact /truth. When you are in the minority opinion or perceived minority opinion then the "playing field" is not level.
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oldiesman
And so what is bothering you White Dove?
Just kidding.
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WordWolf
Fine, WD.
You've NEVER felt put-upon for having an unpopular opinion here.
You've NEVER felt persecuted here nor unhappy.
You've never complained about that sort of thing.
You're not complaining about it now.
Anything that looked like textbook examples of any of the
above were obviously mass hallucinations on the part of
all the people who saw them.
I think we've covered everything.
Now will you stop
"not-complaining-simply-stating-an-opinion-about-bias-that-didn't-surprise-me",
please?
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templelady
WD is a professional at the game of semantics. Throwing synonyms right and left, WD writes paragraphs that leave no doubt as to his position and feelings. However, beware if you are foolish enough to distill his position down to a few explanatory sentences. Use one word not in his posts and you get accused of "making things up" and "I never said that"
Just as a person who says
"Don't expect me to cook breakfast for you again in this lifetime"
Could argue that they never ACTUALLY SAID
"I'll never cook breakfast for you again"
and be correct as to the actual wording--the meaning remains loud and clear.
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WhiteDove
Well .....it is good to mean what you say and say what you mean! You know what I mean......
The problem with distilling down is that it even though it may resemble the original it never tastes quite like Crown Royal after you are done with your distilling process!!
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WhiteDove
Fine, WD.
You've NEVER felt put-upon for having an unpopular opinion here.
You've NEVER felt persecuted here nor unhappy.
You've never complained about that sort of thing.
You're not complaining about it now.
Anything that looked like textbook examples of any of the
above were obviously mass hallucinations on the part of
all the people who saw them.
I think we've covered everything.
Now will you stop
"not-complaining-simply-stating-an-opinion-about-bias-that-didn't-surprise-me",
please?
By Jove I think you've got it old chap!
I just knew you could grasp it. Thanks
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Oakspear
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WhiteDove
Dang oldies even I would have to say that was "a bit of a cheap shot".
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Oakspear
The more I think about it Oldiesman, aren't you the guy who has gotten mad when other posters bring your sister into the discussion? Say whatever you need to say to me, but keep my wife out of it.
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ljn698
not to change the subject by getting back to the original topic of this post or anything but....
does anybody remember a site called trancechat?
i do and sometimes i wish that more of these message boards had rules like they did
i mean you know whenever you register to post somewhere these days,
they give you a whole litany of rules and regs... mostly "things you are not allowed to say"
Oh for the carefree and happy days of when the rules for posting was
"There AIN'T no rules"
and furthermore
if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen
freedom of speech (expression) you either got it or you don't
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oldiesman
Oakspear, I don't see a difference between biblical/Christian likemindedness, and what we were likeminded on in twi.
What we were likeminded on were biblical truths/concepts, and if a participant wasn't likeminded with other participants, why even be involved in the first place?
Some of it was error, granted; but I don't see how that differs from biblical likemindedness.
If it is different, could you cite some examples?
If you want to make a distinction between Christian likemindedness and what we were likeminded on in twi, please be more specific.
Apples and oranges Oakspear.
Your volunteering and posting information about your wife, is totally different than private gossip being posted against someone's wishes.
I assumed that the information you posted about your wife is ok to discuss, since you posted it ... but if not, perhaps you should remove it?
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excathedra
there is freedom of speech here only to a point.
and no i'm not talking about cussing.
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Oakspear
- While Wierwille did teach some bible, he also expected us to take his word on points that could not be documented in the bible.
- During the Martindale reign wayfers were expected to conform to his ideas of housekeeping, car maintenance, and grooming or be subject to "confrontation"
- Way "believers" were expected to serve leadership in non-biblical ways.
I just did. This board is full of other examples.HOWEVER...
If you assumed that using my wife or her business as examples in your ongoing defense of Wierwille and his cult was okay, think again. It is not. Many of us post personal information. It is a reasonable expectation that that information won't be used as a rhetorical point.
I really don't care if you agree or even understand. I am asking you to not do it again.
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Oakspear
There is a big difference between freedom of speech or expression and freedom from criticism.
In TWI dissenting opinions were not allowed, the toleration for them was greater the farther back in time you go, but by the 90's there was none.
Here, you can say pretty much whatever you want. What you do not have is immunity from attack, or the expectation that anyone will agree with you.
Long live Grease Spot!
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