I don't know that I even understand your question. I don't believe in things that I have no evidence of. Simple, no? I don't view that as being "negative" - just honest. And as long as you're apparently still adamant about spreading your sympathies around, I guess I'll reciprocate and say that I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand that viewpoint.
What I DO find difficult - and for me it WAS a very negative experience - is doing all sorts of mental gymnastics in order to try to make the God of The Bible seem like a reality, when so many things in my practical, everyday life would contradict that notion (this is where you get to pound your chest and tell me about how your faith carries you through in spite of that stuff, and you're SORRY that I don't have enough of that).
The more I think about it the sillier religion becomes, SORRY, it just does...
I don't know that I even understand your question. I don't believe in things that I have no evidence of. Simple, no? I don't view that as being "negative" - just honest. And as long as you're apparently still adamant about spreading your sympathies around, I guess I'll reciprocate and say that I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand that viewpoint.
What I DO find difficult - and for me it WAS a very negative experience - is doing all sorts of mental gymnastics in order to try to make the God of The Bible seem like a reality, when so many things in my practical, everyday life would contradict that notion (this is where you get to pound your chest and tell me about how your faith carries you through in spite of that stuff, and you're SORRY that I don't have enough of that).
The more I think about it the sillier religion becomes, SORRY, it just does...
George, I know exactly where you are comming from, even though I do believe in God.
All you have to look at is how well the twi higher-up's handled gawd. The ones who supposed to have that direct connection to God. The ones in power that drove twi almost into oblivion. The people that raped, stole pure hearts and slandered peoples names all in the name of God. We were supposed to look up to these people for spirtual insight and to just take their words as Gods words.
Through all this mess that I have had to sort through since learning what I have learned through WD and GSC. I have wondered if there is a God at some points. For whatever reason I still do believe in a loving God and the thoughts I have about God are strong. Maybe it is my own version of God that I have because I really do not know what to believe from the bible. I guess that is why I have not stepped into a Sunday service any place to worship Him since leaving twi in 1986.
I left right after POP was read to the clergy. I never knew it but I felt that my inner voice was of God and still believe today that was the voice of God telling me to run as fast as I could. That voice I trusted and I listened to I belive was from God. As I learned in 2000 at WD and all that was wrong with twi. I believe God knew why he spoke to me and I would find out later. My point of all of this...........I believe God told me to run even though I did not understand why at the time. I just ran. Hope this makes sense :blink:
In my opinion I see VPW's notion of experience is no guarantee for truth somewhat similar to another of "his" ideas - that the Bible interprets itself. Both ideas ignore the simple fact that the way people LEARN is by ENGAGING OUR BRAINS. Webster's first definition of experience is "a direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge." That makes me think of the scientific method, which Webster defines as "principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses." In my opinion, the gradual and cumulative effect of PFAL on the student is the rendering of the brain to Dullsville – whereby the student interprets the Bible and experiences life vicariously throughVPW'sinterpretationandexperiences.
A few Bible passages come to mind: I John 1: 1- 3 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched – this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard…" And I Thessalonians 5: 21 "Test everything. Hold on to the good." [NIV]
I think you can concisely define the scientific method as observation and experiment. I think THAT'S what the above Bible verses are promoting as a way to learn the truth – as in - use YOUR brain and YOU try it out…For me, the subliminal message of VPW in PFAL is "trust me, turn off your brain."
The idea of personal experience is a great thought.
but reality must prevail and everyones experience in life is different. even if they appear the same .
like the old camp fire game where you wisper a story in someone ear and wait for it to go alll around the group and end up with a far removed story from which it started.
we each process our informations in life with our own filters and education and values..hence the outcome or story can be vastly different even in the simple of tasks.
it is an odd thing quite brillant really if one is open to the fact each person is indeed an seperate self from another.
the problem is those involved in groups like the way never develope a sense of self.. they often struggle with a thought process that is their own and tend to just take on the nearest answer to what their own experience must have been for them.
like art work take a group of folks even a small group and ask them to define how it really looks and what that must mean.
america is a co-dependent nation , we honor co-dependcy often and this adds to the problem of how we think we must think. twi fed this ideal in a masive manner . One reason being the very age of those who began its group.. and they in turn "witnessed" to others like them.
reality belongs to the individual . and to recognize that as a fact one need to be a self and have a idenitity.
It is difficult to be yourself , your true self within a group that want to control you.
even if it because the care.
many just do not desire or know how to develope a self. it is easier to go with what works for others.. no risk.
but then comes a day when you realize .. it isnt enough . but not alot of folks reach self actualization because it is not needed to function normaly and indeed can be quite the scary thought of being "alone" in the world. your childhood will often dictate how you can relate to the world.. how much your parents allowed you to become etc.
funny thing is if you are able to reach and find who you actualy are your realtionships will improve into a greater love that is honest and real and comfy. But often times not with the people of your orgin because no one really like anyone to change and be different then who they believe you must be.
Exactly WW. They could walk by the 5 senses or old man all they wanted. There is the double standard again. To where we had to "walk by the spirit" 100% of the time. If we did not we rere reemed. Again they wanted us to do the impossible.
Furthermore, experience from the mog was to be embraced
without question as well. vpw was entitled to go anywhere
and do anything, and we were to be thankful he did.
To do the impossible?No that even would not be good enough,That was and is thier control,You need us,We will show you the way.Abuse plain and simple <_<
Experiencing via the senses is a perfectly valid way of collecting data for understanding many aspects of the senses realm. One extreme of this method is science, where experience is extended with technology, quantified, repeated, and limited to more trivial matters. The result of this extreme method is extreme surety. Another rather different method, but one sharing the same base as science is people skills. There are others.
Experiencing via the senses is NOT useful for a understanding the spiritual realm because the senses don’t collect data DIRECTLY from that realm, but only from manifestations of interactions from that realm. Add to this limitation the deceiving god of this world who’s been given dominion of the senses realm and experience SHOULD be highly suspect of leading to inaccuracies regarding the spiritual realm.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
7
7
6
12
Popular Days
Mar 27
24
Mar 26
20
Apr 6
10
Apr 4
9
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 7 posts
sirguessalot 7 posts
George Aar 6 posts
Mike 12 posts
Popular Days
Mar 27 2006
24 posts
Mar 26 2006
20 posts
Apr 6 2006
10 posts
Apr 4 2006
9 posts
George Aar
Second James,
I don't know that I even understand your question. I don't believe in things that I have no evidence of. Simple, no? I don't view that as being "negative" - just honest. And as long as you're apparently still adamant about spreading your sympathies around, I guess I'll reciprocate and say that I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand that viewpoint.
What I DO find difficult - and for me it WAS a very negative experience - is doing all sorts of mental gymnastics in order to try to make the God of The Bible seem like a reality, when so many things in my practical, everyday life would contradict that notion (this is where you get to pound your chest and tell me about how your faith carries you through in spite of that stuff, and you're SORRY that I don't have enough of that).
The more I think about it the sillier religion becomes, SORRY, it just does...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i don't like that bible god
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
George, I know exactly where you are comming from, even though I do believe in God.
All you have to look at is how well the twi higher-up's handled gawd. The ones who supposed to have that direct connection to God. The ones in power that drove twi almost into oblivion. The people that raped, stole pure hearts and slandered peoples names all in the name of God. We were supposed to look up to these people for spirtual insight and to just take their words as Gods words.
Through all this mess that I have had to sort through since learning what I have learned through WD and GSC. I have wondered if there is a God at some points. For whatever reason I still do believe in a loving God and the thoughts I have about God are strong. Maybe it is my own version of God that I have because I really do not know what to believe from the bible. I guess that is why I have not stepped into a Sunday service any place to worship Him since leaving twi in 1986.
I left right after POP was read to the clergy. I never knew it but I felt that my inner voice was of God and still believe today that was the voice of God telling me to run as fast as I could. That voice I trusted and I listened to I belive was from God. As I learned in 2000 at WD and all that was wrong with twi. I believe God knew why he spoke to me and I would find out later. My point of all of this...........I believe God told me to run even though I did not understand why at the time. I just ran. Hope this makes sense :blink:
Edited by justloafingLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
In my opinion I see VPW's notion of experience is no guarantee for truth somewhat similar to another of "his" ideas - that the Bible interprets itself. Both ideas ignore the simple fact that the way people LEARN is by ENGAGING OUR BRAINS. Webster's first definition of experience is "a direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge." That makes me think of the scientific method, which Webster defines as "principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses." In my opinion, the gradual and cumulative effect of PFAL on the student is the rendering of the brain to Dullsville – whereby the student interprets the Bible and experiences life vicariously through VPW's interpretation and experiences.
A few Bible passages come to mind: I John 1: 1- 3 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched – this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard…" And I Thessalonians 5: 21 "Test everything. Hold on to the good." [NIV]
I think you can concisely define the scientific method as observation and experiment. I think THAT'S what the above Bible verses are promoting as a way to learn the truth – as in - use YOUR brain and YOU try it out…For me, the subliminal message of VPW in PFAL is "trust me, turn off your brain."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
NOW we're talkin'!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
The idea of personal experience is a great thought.
but reality must prevail and everyones experience in life is different. even if they appear the same .
like the old camp fire game where you wisper a story in someone ear and wait for it to go alll around the group and end up with a far removed story from which it started.
we each process our informations in life with our own filters and education and values..hence the outcome or story can be vastly different even in the simple of tasks.
it is an odd thing quite brillant really if one is open to the fact each person is indeed an seperate self from another.
the problem is those involved in groups like the way never develope a sense of self.. they often struggle with a thought process that is their own and tend to just take on the nearest answer to what their own experience must have been for them.
like art work take a group of folks even a small group and ask them to define how it really looks and what that must mean.
america is a co-dependent nation , we honor co-dependcy often and this adds to the problem of how we think we must think. twi fed this ideal in a masive manner . One reason being the very age of those who began its group.. and they in turn "witnessed" to others like them.
reality belongs to the individual . and to recognize that as a fact one need to be a self and have a idenitity.
It is difficult to be yourself , your true self within a group that want to control you.
even if it because the care.
many just do not desire or know how to develope a self. it is easier to go with what works for others.. no risk.
but then comes a day when you realize .. it isnt enough . but not alot of folks reach self actualization because it is not needed to function normaly and indeed can be quite the scary thought of being "alone" in the world. your childhood will often dictate how you can relate to the world.. how much your parents allowed you to become etc.
funny thing is if you are able to reach and find who you actualy are your realtionships will improve into a greater love that is honest and real and comfy. But often times not with the people of your orgin because no one really like anyone to change and be different then who they believe you must be.
Edited by pondLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
The concept of personal experience-as viewed by twi- is simple.
Experience before twi leading you TO twi is of God.
Experience before twi leading you AWAY FROM twi is of God.
Once in twi, ALL experience that you experience must be
interpreted BY twi or ignored.
Furthermore, twi will IMPOSE experience-and THIS experience
is to be embraced without question.
Experience from a twi event is supposed to be embraced.
After all, the whole point of forbidding people to cover
"speaking in tongues" before Session 12
(or interpretation or prophecy before the Intermediate)
was to inculcate a common experience into the lives
of all the students.
Furthermore, experience from the mog was to be embraced
without question as well. vpw was entitled to go anywhere
and do anything, and we were to be thankful he did.
Racetracks, porn shops, wherever.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
Exactly WW. They could walk by the 5 senses or old man all they wanted. There is the double standard again. To where we had to "walk by the spirit" 100% of the time. If we did not we rere reemed. Again they wanted us to do the impossible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
frank123lol
To do the impossible?No that even would not be good enough,That was and is thier control,You need us,We will show you the way.Abuse plain and simple <_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Here’s another approach.
Experiencing via the senses is a perfectly valid way of collecting data for understanding many aspects of the senses realm. One extreme of this method is science, where experience is extended with technology, quantified, repeated, and limited to more trivial matters. The result of this extreme method is extreme surety. Another rather different method, but one sharing the same base as science is people skills. There are others.
Experiencing via the senses is NOT useful for a understanding the spiritual realm because the senses don’t collect data DIRECTLY from that realm, but only from manifestations of interactions from that realm. Add to this limitation the deceiving god of this world who’s been given dominion of the senses realm and experience SHOULD be highly suspect of leading to inaccuracies regarding the spiritual realm.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.