Even from a "believing that the bible is true" point of view, a contradictory experience might be helpful in analyzing whether what you thought the bible said was true. Of course, if you're locked into one view, you'll ignore what's before your eyes.
Well I wasn't really referring to people teaching their personal experiences. What I was referring to was if you happened to mention a personal experience to a fellow twit or leader&$*# and how your experience would be blown off.
The only valid experience in twi was "I learned this in the class and it helped my life or I started giving more $$ and now I have more abundance type of crap."
What you described were the later distorted forms of the original teaching on experiences, after that distortion crept from teaching policies to everyday conversation policies.
What a lot of us got into above were the earlier forms of that distortion.
The mere word “experience” eventually became an anti-buzz word in later years that gave leaders a handle on crushing the egos of anyone who dared utter it outside the approved confines you described.
You wrote: “Even from a "believing that the bible is true" point of view, a contradictory experience might be helpful in analyzing whether what you thought the bible said was true. Of course, if you're locked into one view, you'll ignore what's before your eyes.”
This is a good point you make. In the early stages of formulating a Biblical perspective such a point is crucial. But there’s more to the story as we develop in our perspective.
It’s pretty well documented that what the eyes behold can be very illusory. There comes a point where we must rise to a spiritual/intellectual point of view that is greater than any fleeting view that comes into physical sight. Without a vantage point greater than the senses we are at the mercy of whoever controls the senses realm.
Without a vantage point greater than the senses we are at the mercy of whoever controls the senses realm
And in TWI VPW and later LCM controlled the senses realm, they told us what to think and how to think and woe betide the poor person who had the unmitigated audacity to say " in my experience (what ever contradicted the acceptable doctrine of the moment)"
Scripture, prayer, listening to that still small voice, and learning from what we experience in the senses realm is what keeps us safe from those who would distort the truth in ANY situation.
Without a vantage point greater than the senses we are at the mercy of whoever controls the senses realm.
And what if your "vantage point" is nothing more than a delusion? You have no way to corroborate or - God forbid - prove your observations - after all the senses are not to be trusted.
George... I think what he's trying to say is that "We all should trust our delusions, regardless, and not what we learn via the 5 senses (or 6 if you're one of those)".... understand now?
Don't be sad. We can still talk about PFAL and spiritual things if you want... not so much here on this thread, though. If you brace yourself for my unyielding position we can talk fine.
Dude, what's the friggin' POINT? Don't you have even a rudimentary understanding of the dynamics of a DISCUSSION FORUM? The benefit of being here comes from Listening to OTHER PEOPLE!
It’s pretty well documented that what the eyes behold can be very illusory. There comes a point where we must rise to a spiritual/intellectual point of view that is greater than any fleeting view that comes into physical sight. Without a vantage point greater than the senses we are at the mercy of whoever controls the senses realm.
Our understanding of what is written down, no matter how authoritative, can also be illusory.
Dude, what's the friggin' POINT? Don't you have even a rudimentary understanding of the dynamics of a DISCUSSION FORUM? The benefit of being here comes from Listening to OTHER PEOPLE!
Lord help us....
Jerry,
Don't fret none. The Lord has helped you. I find plenty of benefits here from listening to other people. I have even on occasion changed my mind from listening to some things here.
I've explained before (maybe you weren't listening) many times, though, that there are SOME things from which I will not budge. Don't you too have any such items in your mind? Do you come here to have everything changed in your mind? No! There are many such inflexible positions held here by posters. I'm simply honest to point out what I've closed my mind on.
Everyone has issues they've finished considering and are dedicated to. It's just that the phrase "open mind" is so chic that many people pretend to have it for every and all possible issues. Baloney!
***
Now, to help steer this back to topic from your accusatory derailment, let me ask EVERYONE this:
Has anyone here had an experience that was so profound they decided to close their mind to any more input and considerations on the that issue?
i was sitting in my car waiting for gas in the middle of august. i closed my eyes and prayed to god to give me a sign if twi was a counterfeit. when i opened my eyes....
Our understanding of what is written down, no matter how authoritative, can also be illusory.
I do not agree. I think that we have a good understanding of the bible in a lot of categories.
I disagree with your disagreement
What I'm talking about here, mex, is not clinging to a belief in the face of all evidence to the contrary, but reconsidering (not throwing it out) that belief in light of experience.
Your experiences are more for you. It is dangerous for others. If a pastor who believes that the bible teaches the dead are dead believes he sees his father walking down a street and then suddenly changes based on this experience. Now teaches this based on experience. That is bad. Experiences come and they go. But te Word liveth and abideth forever. And all yo need to do is take a cople psychology classes to find out all our experiences are shi*& anyway.
O.K., since experiences are "dangerous" (for others anyway), I guess we need to throw out a couple of thousand years of scientific and technological advances and go back to cave dwelling and the hunter/gatherer lifestyle.
bottom line, the "don't trust experience" rap was just another way to get you to deny what your senses sensed, what your brain deduced and what your gut told you. on the surface, it seemed reasonable: "it's true because the word says it." but it set the stage for what was to come.
for me (yes, my experience!), the first step down was deciding not to trust my own brain. and my salvation was in finally listening to that little voice inside me yelling "bullsh!t" at the top of his lungs!
Woohoo AMEN sprawled! The best way that I have ever heard it described.
Excellent point George.
They got us to discount our experiences, ignore our feelings and mistrust our emotions...the only thing left to base our decisions and beliefs on was what twi wanted us to think....and THAT was always what was best for twi :(
You can trust your personal experiences if they line up with TWIt doctrine. If they don't, THEN you have the problem.
They WANT you to talk about how you were healed by sitting through one of their classes. How some TWIt prayed for you and you got a check for $100 in the mail so you could pay to take the class.
They DON'T want you to talk about how you were raped by one of their ministers. They DON'T want you to talk about how you experienced severe depression from trying to jump through all the hoops they put in front of you.
It's all in the "context", keeeds.
Sprawled Out
And LOVE the icon!!!!
If your dead grandpa shows up at the foot of your bed and tells you to sign up for "the class" you can trust that experience.
If your dead grandpa shows up at the foot of your bed and tells you to get the he11 away from TWI you can NOT trust that experience.
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mstar1
Says who? Wierwille and his "research"?
You may want to recheck and re think that one
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Oakspear
Even from a "believing that the bible is true" point of view, a contradictory experience might be helpful in analyzing whether what you thought the bible said was true. Of course, if you're locked into one view, you'll ignore what's before your eyes.
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penguin
Hey all,
Well I wasn't really referring to people teaching their personal experiences. What I was referring to was if you happened to mention a personal experience to a fellow twit or leader&$*# and how your experience would be blown off.
The only valid experience in twi was "I learned this in the class and it helped my life or I started giving more $$ and now I have more abundance type of crap."
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Mike
penguin,
What you described were the later distorted forms of the original teaching on experiences, after that distortion crept from teaching policies to everyday conversation policies.
What a lot of us got into above were the earlier forms of that distortion.
The mere word “experience” eventually became an anti-buzz word in later years that gave leaders a handle on crushing the egos of anyone who dared utter it outside the approved confines you described.
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Oakspear,
You wrote: “Even from a "believing that the bible is true" point of view, a contradictory experience might be helpful in analyzing whether what you thought the bible said was true. Of course, if you're locked into one view, you'll ignore what's before your eyes.”
This is a good point you make. In the early stages of formulating a Biblical perspective such a point is crucial. But there’s more to the story as we develop in our perspective.
It’s pretty well documented that what the eyes behold can be very illusory. There comes a point where we must rise to a spiritual/intellectual point of view that is greater than any fleeting view that comes into physical sight. Without a vantage point greater than the senses we are at the mercy of whoever controls the senses realm.
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templelady
And in TWI VPW and later LCM controlled the senses realm, they told us what to think and how to think and woe betide the poor person who had the unmitigated audacity to say " in my experience (what ever contradicted the acceptable doctrine of the moment)"
Scripture, prayer, listening to that still small voice, and learning from what we experience in the senses realm is what keeps us safe from those who would distort the truth in ANY situation.
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George Aar
And what if your "vantage point" is nothing more than a delusion? You have no way to corroborate or - God forbid - prove your observations - after all the senses are not to be trusted.
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Tom Strange
George... I think what he's trying to say is that "We all should trust our delusions, regardless, and not what we learn via the 5 senses (or 6 if you're one of those)".... understand now?
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dmiller
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LG
Wierwille would have slapped you silly, had you said that to him.
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Jbarrax
Dude, what's the friggin' POINT? Don't you have even a rudimentary understanding of the dynamics of a DISCUSSION FORUM? The benefit of being here comes from Listening to OTHER PEOPLE!
Lord help us....
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Oakspear
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Raf
Very true, Oaks.
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Mike
Oaks,
You wrote: "Our understanding of what is written down, no matter how authoritative, can also be illusory."
I understand EXACTLY what you mean.
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themex
I do not agree. I think that we have a good understanding of the bible in a lot of categories.
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Mike
Jerry,
Don't fret none. The Lord has helped you. I find plenty of benefits here from listening to other people. I have even on occasion changed my mind from listening to some things here.
I've explained before (maybe you weren't listening) many times, though, that there are SOME things from which I will not budge. Don't you too have any such items in your mind? Do you come here to have everything changed in your mind? No! There are many such inflexible positions held here by posters. I'm simply honest to point out what I've closed my mind on.
Everyone has issues they've finished considering and are dedicated to. It's just that the phrase "open mind" is so chic that many people pretend to have it for every and all possible issues. Baloney!
***
Now, to help steer this back to topic from your accusatory derailment, let me ask EVERYONE this:
Has anyone here had an experience that was so profound they decided to close their mind to any more input and considerations on the that issue?
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excathedra
i was sitting in my car waiting for gas in the middle of august. i closed my eyes and prayed to god to give me a sign if twi was a counterfeit. when i opened my eyes....
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sirguessalot
personally, doctrinally, practically, i would answer...a constant "no"
and ive had some doozies, believe me
and i would also add more questions to Mike's question
such as...
...should we ever stop REinterpreting their own profoundly undeniable experiences?
or...is it even possible to stop reinterpreting our experiences?
or...is it possibly even spiritually dangerous to stop reinterpreting our experiences?
etc...
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excathedra
great post, t
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Oakspear
What I'm talking about here, mex, is not clinging to a belief in the face of all evidence to the contrary, but reconsidering (not throwing it out) that belief in light of experience.
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rickyg
Your experiences are more for you. It is dangerous for others. If a pastor who believes that the bible teaches the dead are dead believes he sees his father walking down a street and then suddenly changes based on this experience. Now teaches this based on experience. That is bad. Experiences come and they go. But te Word liveth and abideth forever. And all yo need to do is take a cople psychology classes to find out all our experiences are shi*& anyway.
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George Aar
O.K., since experiences are "dangerous" (for others anyway), I guess we need to throw out a couple of thousand years of scientific and technological advances and go back to cave dwelling and the hunter/gatherer lifestyle.
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sprawled out
bottom line, the "don't trust experience" rap was just another way to get you to deny what your senses sensed, what your brain deduced and what your gut told you. on the surface, it seemed reasonable: "it's true because the word says it." but it set the stage for what was to come.
for me (yes, my experience!), the first step down was deciding not to trust my own brain. and my salvation was in finally listening to that little voice inside me yelling "bullsh!t" at the top of his lungs!
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rascal
Woohoo AMEN sprawled! The best way that I have ever heard it described.
Excellent point George.
They got us to discount our experiences, ignore our feelings and mistrust our emotions...the only thing left to base our decisions and beliefs on was what twi wanted us to think....and THAT was always what was best for twi :(
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Belle
You can trust your personal experiences if they line up with TWIt doctrine. If they don't, THEN you have the problem.
They WANT you to talk about how you were healed by sitting through one of their classes. How some TWIt prayed for you and you got a check for $100 in the mail so you could pay to take the class.
They DON'T want you to talk about how you were raped by one of their ministers. They DON'T want you to talk about how you experienced severe depression from trying to jump through all the hoops they put in front of you.
It's all in the "context", keeeds.
And LOVE the icon!!!!
If your dead grandpa shows up at the foot of your bed and tells you to sign up for "the class" you can trust that experience.
If your dead grandpa shows up at the foot of your bed and tells you to get the he11 away from TWI you can NOT trust that experience.
See? It's a very simple concept. :)
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