...If I'm not mistaken, Vic Wierwille was fired from his position with his denomination for ADULTRY, long before twi was ever in existance...
To say that he was tempted and then succumbed because of the "success" of twi is to ignore the actual facts relating to the man's charector.
Besides...throwing out the "good" with the bad?
Excuse me, but if we totally ignore the behavior of Vic Wierwille and look solely at the doctrinal teachings found in pfal...pfal is riddled with error! Believing equals rceiving?...sorry, but this meets the criteria of witchcraft...Wierwille's teachings in pfal have caused far more harm to MORE people's lives than his drunken, adulterous behavior ever did...IMHO.
A reoccurring theme here at the GSC is that people are full of bitterness and thus, their judgement is jaded...
...I have been out of twi for nearly 20 years now. My opinions about grifter Vic and his teachings are not based on emotion or on how it affected my life...Many of you have just recently left twi...many others had personal experiences that were devastating to their personal lives...
...My personal experiences with twi are FAR behind me. If I were a Vulcan, I would say that my opinions concerning twi teachings and VPW are "logical"...the facts are the facts. The man was a lying, adulterous drunk...his teachings (most of which were stolen from others) were mostly wrong and destructive to those who believed them.
You want to romanticize about the "good old days" in twi and continue to "hold fast" to the teachings of pfal? Good for you...I think you're foolish and need to find a life for yourself that is actually based in reality.
Damn - I haven't even thought of that stupid phrase for 20 years - horn of plenty... Wasn't that what Martindales wife called Rivenbark? What the hell was Martindale's wifes name again?
What I struggle with daily is the war zone in my home. I continue to be thankful for the benefits I received from twi, and am confronted with bitterness because of my stance. In my visits to the GSC I have tried to glean information to help me understand the reasons for this bitterness. Some doors of communication have been opened due to my contemplation of the posts here. While mulling over your post tonight, I realized that what prompts me to respond to many posts are the emotions they stir up related to this daily struggle, rather than to the content of the post itself. And because I am reacting to my personal struggle, my comments are misdirected, and, therefore, easily misunderstood. Thank you for helping me to see this. I will try to avoid this in the future.
This post caused me to feel a wave of regret. I've probably written some of the most caustic (and thoroughly well-deserved) posts about Wierwille, the ministry he rode like his prize pony, and its "teachings," among other things.
But I've always allowed for the good that people brought with them to New Knoxville. Some went bad, some went home, some went to "the Word" and found shelter in the midst of TWI's corruption. They had their "rock," and not all the sodomy in Sodom could move them. Somehow. They "held fast" to the good. Good for them.
So Wierwille's innermost heart may have been black as tar and cold as the dead of winter, but no matter how much he used God and scripture to fill his bed and build his little empire, he projected a public image that good people found inspiring and credible, and it was THEY who were responsible for the good they found there. They responded to the bible, and to one another, and sure, to Wierwille's utterly false but believable image. So where should the real credit go?
I get a little impatient with them sometimes for not seeing their part, and for remaining loyal to "Doctor," crediting him when any believer would have to concede (first knowing the facts) that Wierwille was used for good despite his best, or worst, intentions to serve only himself. But I can't hold that same goodness and innocence against them because it makes them resist those facts, and their implications. I'm grateful for that goodness, because it was responsible for any good that I found at TWI too. God knows Wierwille & Company were not.
Sure there are some dopes who lurk - those "apologists" who must live to deny every deed dirty Vic ever perpetrated, to resurrect the exalted Vic and perpetuate his "absent Christ" mythology, replacing Christ with the risen Vic, a screwy view unique to Way World, one of many. I don't have much use for them.
But the great majority of good-hearted believers who, not for lack of tryin', Vic never hurt and the ministry never screwed (the notorious "lockbox, baby!" code was effective at sweeping @#$@ under the rug) are entitled to remember it the way it was, for them.
It is good of them to acknowledge the truth, to "validate" the hurt their brothers and sisters experienced, but like Jack says, some people can't handle the truth. Or maybe they're just not ready. That's not a crime. Life can suck enough in the here and now to keep them pretty busy, and they can't change the past. I can't blame them for not wanting to toss a season of their lives into the trash, and that's how they may feel about it.
If they come here, they need to acknowledge the reality of TWI, or they will be challenged on behalf of those who lived that reality. But I'm not inclined to look for a fight when I see some present or past Wayfer on the street who holds fond memories of Wierwille's cult. It took me quite a while put the cult scenario into place, and it wasn't so easy. I don't expect them to do it on my behalf, or anyone else's. They have to live their own lives, and hopefully, live happily.
Unless it's TWI or here at Greasespot, I'm sorry to read about any "war zone." I really am.
Greeting to all you Campers and Groupies of all Categories,
First of all, my apologies for trying to pigeonhole the wonderful people here at GSC into any kind of groupings. Suffice it say that our one common thread is twi, and our experiences and reactions are too diverse to be narrowed down into a few groups. Any attempt to do so can easily elicit negative feedback, because generalizations can never capture the myriad of viewpoints posted here. I very much enjoy reading the differing perspectives and have learned a great deal from the variety on the menu here. The diversity at the GreaseSpot Café is to be celebrated, not homogenized.
Shazdancer, I so agree with your statement,
“But the bottom line is, a person can live an ethical and kind life and not profess to believe in PFAL, or even Christianity. Likewise, plenty of people have incorporated what they learned from TWI into a loving lifestyle.”
And a home with the peaceful co-existence of two ex-twi’ers would be the result from the above if each could be content with the other’s choice, and refrain from the “ verbal digs and arguments” in an attempt to force the other to accept their point of view. And when change is not effected, then escalate into bitterness and hostility, in hopes the other can be cowed into acceptance. What seems to be missing is
“ Can you both respect in each other that desire to want to be better? Does that empathy keep the love going?”.
Both parties here have been guilty of lacking respect and empathy, and are working on having them be the norm in our home again.
ChasUFarley’s thread on Becoming Agnostic was wonderful for me. Her opening questions were great.
“I have trouble relating to people on a spiritual level who claim they are agnostic. . . . The people I'm referring to are people who were in TWI. They spoke in tongues. They probably went WOW. They probably even saw God or some supernatural being work in their lives at some point - something amazing had to have happened.... sometime, somewhere....So, how does one become agnostic? Do you just wake up and go "gee, what God?" or did you think it over slowly and gradually say, "nope, no such thing!" . . . These are honest questions - not narrow minded - just wondering... how?”
The major hurt and confusion in my life resulting from my years with twi did not rear it’s ugly head until about 15 years after we left. We both we in agreement that it was time to leave after the POP mess and the mark and avoid teachings came out. But we remained a Christian couple, and raising our children in a Christian household was of upmost importance to both of us. We visited local churches, and found one that we were comfortable attending. We were both very involved. Hubby taught Sunday School, became a deacon, was chairman of several committees. I taught adult and pre-school Sunday School, Children's Church, Vacation Bible School, worked with children's choir. I finally left after about 7 years when I was told I was no longer welcome, but hubby stayed on (and still teaches Sunday School there now). The kids and I visited other churches, but never found one for the family. The girls found ones they liked where a lot of their friends attended. Son attended with his cousins on occasion. And I found a home fellowship that was run by ex-corps that had moved back into the area. So we all had our church homes we liked, although not together, which would have been our preference. Then, as I start taking my son to fellowship with me, the bombshell hits, hubby announces he is an atheist and heated arguments fly over whether or not my son will be allowed to attend with me. I felt like I was in the middle of a Twilight Zone episode. How does my husband go from being a Christian to an atheist? And why does an atheist still attend church and teach Sunday School? There had been signs along the way, remarks about lots in the Bible being myths rather than truth, no more prayer as a family or a couple, but I had accepted his explanation that he was confused about some things and was sorting things out. I know people go through times of questioning their faith and can accept that, I just wasn’t ready for the I am an atheist stance. Believing as I do, that marriage is an institution ordained by God, not a piece of paper you pick up from the local justice of the peace, I was floored, really upset. To my mind, it was like the end of our marriage when he threw God out of the equation. It has taken several years, but I have finally been able to accept the wide chasm in our beliefs. (He tells me now he considers himself to be a Christian because he believes in the basic tenets of the religion - of being a good, moral, decent, ethical person - which he is and has always been. Of course, many religions teach these same basic principles, so he couldn’t he just as well consider himself to be Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.?). Nor was I ready for the don’t take my son around that cult who teaches nothing but bullsh** stance and his venomous attacks on my beliefs. After all, didn’t he often consult twi materials (among other reference materials) in preparing his Sunday School lessons? I had never been one to accept what vpw and/or twi taught hook, line, and sinker. If it did not make sense to me, if my research did not bear it out, I didn’t buy it. And I never had any qualms about taking my questions to my local leadership and discussing them. While in twi, I was always blessed with great local leadership who did not frown on questions nor demand blind acceptance of teachings from hq. If that hadn’t been the case, I would have been out of there in a heartbeat. So the long and the short of it is, we are still working through our differences, and both are committed to finding a zone of peaceful co-existence. We’re not there yet, but I think we will eventually arrive.
Due to the bitter attacks I have received from him, as well as from others (some anti-twi, some twi-friendly, and some with no knowledge of twi) I guess I’m sensitive when I feel a post here carries that same venomous tone. And I have seen VERY FEW here, less than a handful. I have no problem with heated discussions and venting - in fact, I think they are beneficial. But attacks are something else. I know when I attacked my husband in the atheist aftermath, it was due to my confusion, hurt, and anger. I had to work through the turmoil of those emotions before I could get out of the attack mode and be able to have logical, calm disagreements and/or discussions. That is why when I think I detect that kind of bitterness here, it concerns me for that person. Working through the turmoil is painful and at times it seems it would be easier to just put a lid on it, and stay put in that place, versus pushing on. But if you stay stuck, things just fester and boil and come rushing out in a negative way. Though it’s hard, I think it’s much better to “face midnight” and keep pushing yourself until your heart is empty of the garbage, so true healing can take place. Over the past several years I have dealt with lots of personal garbage only to find that when one can is empty, another is waiting to be dealt with. But I’m glad I still have the stamina to keep with it, and hope that one day soon it will all be out at the curb ready for final pick up and disposal.
I do not mean to come across as airing dirty laundry in public. I think a major purpose of the GSC is a forum for people to come and discuss their questions and concerns, and use the feed back from others to help them through the healing process. Our differences in beliefs is common knowledge here, and I’m sure that the marital discord my husband and I are working through due to the divergent paths our journeys of faith took us after leaving twi are not unique. I obviously love him dearly or I would not strive so diligently to repair the damage in our relationship (and vice versa). In fact, the reason I am here at all is because of his constant urging over the last several years to visit and learn in hopes that we could come to a more common ground concerning our mind-set on twi.
Temple Lady, as I am still a relative newcomer to GSC, you would be in a better position than I to know
That would be a valid observation if it were not for the fact that the most venemous of posters are, not the ones who were wounded by TWI, but the ones who are in the camp of "TWI was great and so was VPW".
I have seen bitter posts from twi-friendly as well as anti-twi. I haven’t had enough exposure yet to be able to keep tabs. (By the way, I’ve really enjoyed learning more about the LDS from your thread. Our dental hygienist is LDS and I’ve learned a lot from her, and we have been comparing notes on Big Love - am glad it’s not slamming your church.)
Belle, so true, the sweetness of my twi days was always at the grassroots level.
Ex10, yes, I think 99% of the posters here are venting, just as I am doing now. Guess I’ve blown the 1% that come off as bitter out of proportion. But it’s what stirred a response from me because of my internal churning as I continue to work through the garbage in my own life.
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts. I look forward to any feedback. I know it will be helpful to me.
I cannot comprehend how difficult it would be to live with an apostate (please note, the word is the technically accurate word for his condition, it is not being used as an accusation), particularly one who announces that he is condescending to you...would have been far more "loving" of him to just keep his mouth shut...particularly after he made the decision for so many years to actively go through the motions...
I know for myself, it took a number of years before I would go back to the Catholic Church because I didn't want to cause a bunch of strife with my wife...until she wanted to convert...on her own terms.
But with you, it's not like you want to become an apostate to keep peace in the family, is it?
quote: So, how does one become agnostic? Do you just wake up and go "gee, what God?" or did you think it over slowly and gradually say, "nope, no such thing!" . . . These are honest questions - not narrow minded - just wondering... how?”
Claiming to be agnostic, or atheist will give that person control over every conversation. It's a hard hearted response for sure, but as long as the door is closed there's not much you can do about it.
Why do they do it? I can only speculate. They possibly feel vulnerable and have to have control over every conversation (with an ex twi) to protect their hearts. Perhaps they once upon a time felt so secure in their faith that they were sure they'd never again have to doubt their faith, so when the dirt came out it was as though the whole thing was a scam. Remember that the sonship right "justified" meant just as if I'd never sinned? Well, now it's "just as if they'd never been righteous".
Like I said, it's a knee jerk response. Well, that's my best guess.
Had to look up the word apostate before I could answer your post.
And the aswer is unequivocally, no. I could not become an apostate. My love for God has been central to my life for as long as I can remember. It is the most defining component of my life.
After my parents had died, and we siblings were cleaning out the house, we found folders that our mother had kept of major projects/assignments in elementary school. In the 2nd grade we had to "write" a fill in the blank autobiography with statements like "My name is ____________." To the one, "When I want to grow up I want to be a _____________." my response was "good Christian." (I assume the answer the teacher was looking for was teacher, nurse, or some other vocation). When I read it some 40 odd years later (I did not even remember the assignment) it brought tears of joy to my eyes, realizing that my spiritual walk hand in hand with God had been the desire of my heart since childhood. And to this day, this is still what I want to be as I continue to grow older and wiser. Living a Christian lifestyle is my vocation.
Had to look up the word apostate before I could answer your post.
And the aswer is unequivocally, no. I could not become an apostate. My love for God has been central to my life for as long as I can remember. It is the most defining component of my life.
After my parents had died, and we siblings were cleaning out the house, we found folders that our mother had kept of major projects/assignments in elementary school. In the 2nd grade we had to "write" a fill in the blank autobiography with statements like "My name is ____________." To the one, "When I want to grow up I want to be a _____________." my response was "good Christian." (I assume the answer the teacher was looking for was teacher, nurse, or some other vocation). When I read it some 40 odd years later (I did not even remember the assignment) it brought tears of joy to my eyes, realizing that my spiritual walk hand in hand with God had been the desire of my heart since childhood. And to this day, this is still what I want to be as I continue to grow older and wiser. Living a Christian lifestyle is my vocation.
And that's the point. You can't.
For you, to deny Christ is to deny yourself. I understand this.
I don't really have any great words of wisdom or any advice on how to reconcile the two beliefs in the house, but I can really relate to where Sudo is coming from. My experiences and thought processes are probably not very similar at all, but I think the frustration, anger and process of evaluation of what we were taught and always believed could have very similar parallels.
When something is confusing or seems wrong to me, I don't just take a step back - I go all the way back to the beginning and start over. Doing that, imo, takes all the preconceived notions out of the picture so that what I'm looking at seems to be free from being tainted. Sudo, actually, brings a great deal of logic and food for thought to the board and I've benefitted from his "hard questions".
What I did was go back to "OK, so I was raised Christian and to consider the Bible as very important - like a rule book and a "yearbook" of Christianity and God, if you will".
Where did this book come from? How and why do we put so much stock into it?
A friend introduced me to the book, "The Origin of Satan" which talks about where the devil came from in ancient history - not ancient Christianity - history.
I looked at the "facts" we know about the Bible itself - not the things IN it, but the actual Bible.
I looked at the Nag Hammadi Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Marcionites, the history of different religions and also their "sacred scrolls".
I looked at historical mythology, the tales of other cultures, religions and the tales and foundations of those things.
There's a lot of similarities....too many, imo, to ignore them and too many, imo, to come to the conclusion that Christianity and the God of Chrisitanity is the end all and be all of life and how we should believe and live.
There's also still lots of contradictions and evil that's really hard to reconcile. A god who kills? A god who commands that people be killed? (The explanations from all the various Chrisitan religions, really doesn't sufficiently answer that for me. It sounds like kids trying to make up bogus excuses, to me)
That being said, as I said on the agnostic thread Chas started - I'm afraid NOT to believe in God....a God...a supreme being of some sort. I just don't know, though. The alternative sounds pretty harsh, don't you think?
And, on other days, I pull on the scriptures that I learned growing up - not from TWI, but from growing up and post-TWI. I do believe in "loving your neighbor as yourself" and I do believe in taking care of your fellow man. Religion? Bah! It's got too many holes in it for me. But in two hours, I may feel differently. It's a perpetual state of confusion for me.... Almost like a part of me wants to believe, but it just swells up cognitive dissonance since I really don't believe the Bible to be all it's cracked up to be and that's the basis for all Christianity.
I've also read the book by the founder of skeptic.com - "Why People Believe Weird Things" - I started it out of interest in how easily I dropped believing in the Holocaust treachery merely because TWI said it didn't happen. It taught me a lot more about critical thinking and how folks can believe the most unbelieveable things.
I've pretty much decided I don't know and I don't care that I don't know. I reckon whatever God tells me when I die, will be what my sentence is and if He doesn't exist, then, well....at least I didn't spend my life trying to please a god who wasn't ever going to be pleased with me anyway since he made us unable to live up to his expectations.
p.s. these views are subject to change at a moment's notice.
IMO the idea that you can control and make someone else believe the way you want them to believe by reproof, correction, digs, jabs, arguements etc comes straight from TWI.
If the stakes are high enough, you might be able to get someone to pretend they believe the way you think they should--but what they do inside their own mind could be quite different.
A few years after we left TWI it became obvious that we had different interests in things spiritual. Hubby is agnostic (and doesn't try to control things with his agnosticism or what ever ), I'm pagan. There are no digs and jabs over belief or unbelief in our home.
If there were--well, I had years of experience in TWI of hiding what I really thought. I suspect it would be an easy habit to fall into again. Glad I don't have to.
IMO the idea that you can control and make someone else believe the way you want them to believe by reproof, correction, digs, jabs, arguements etc comes straight from TWI.
We were taught to do this. We were taught it was important to do this. We were taught to be EAGER to do this.
We don't have to confront anyone. It's pointless anyway -- as if that would make anyone go, "Gee, you're right, how silly of me."
Your approach to go back to ground zero, so to speak, seems like an honest and logical choice one could make. And the more hubby and I have discussed his change in beliefs, that's basically what I think he has done, also. It makes it much easier to accept his viewpoints once it is explained (versus defensive arguing or refusing to talk about it at all). But me floundering in the dark trying to understand was upsetting, to say the least.
But to his credit, I can see where when initially he found his beliefs to be polar opposites from me, and knowing how strongly I feel about my beliefs, it would make sense to just keep quiet on the subject until he had more clarity to what he believed. What would be the benefit in upsetting me when he wasn't even sure what he did and did not believe? Why subject me to his confusion? And maybe the reason he is still reluctant to engage in conversations is because, like you, he is still trying to figure out where he stands.
Bramble and shazdancer,
In response to
IMO the idea that you can control and make someone else believe the way you want them to believe by reproof, correction, digs, jabs, arguements etc comes straight from TWI.
I don't think they invented it or cornered the market on it. I have seen this type of manipulation/control behavior in all facets of life, many of which had nothing to do with twi or any kind of religious group. Many examples in corporate life, while teaching at a university, in PTA meeting at children's schools, just to name a few. But from the posts I've read here, twi certainly worked on perfecting it.
Of course such manipulative control only works in the short term, and is morally wrong. That's why it should have no place in family. That has been driven home to me clearly in dealing with my teenagers. As a parent, you realize you reach a point when you cannot and should not try to exert too much control over your children. You have to allow them the freedom to make their own choices, even if you know they are not in their best interests, or not in agreement with your preferences. You just have to hope and pray that the influence of your past instruction and current advice, when solicited, will help keep them out of too much hot water. But they can't grow and develop if you do not allow them the freedom to do so.
Learning should be a life time endeavor, and spouses will grow, mature, and change in the course of their relationship. Guess that's another area where good communication would be a real benefit. If you talk about it as you go along, no one would get knocked upside the head when a major shift takes place, as you've been kept abreast of the change as it evolves. Never think it's honest in a marriage relationship to hide what you really think, always better to get it out in the open and talk through it. You may not always agree on the subject, but at least you have a understanding of the what/when/where/how/who your spouse is coming from.
johniam,
Good words for me to ponder. Will have to mull over them more before I can respond.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
10
11
10
Popular Days
Apr 15
35
Apr 13
34
Apr 14
25
Apr 16
16
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 11 posts
ex10 10 posts
J0nny Ling0 11 posts
Suda 10 posts
Popular Days
Apr 15 2006
35 posts
Apr 13 2006
34 posts
Apr 14 2006
25 posts
Apr 16 2006
16 posts
GrouchoMarxJr
...If I'm not mistaken, Vic Wierwille was fired from his position with his denomination for ADULTRY, long before twi was ever in existance...
To say that he was tempted and then succumbed because of the "success" of twi is to ignore the actual facts relating to the man's charector.
Besides...throwing out the "good" with the bad?
Excuse me, but if we totally ignore the behavior of Vic Wierwille and look solely at the doctrinal teachings found in pfal...pfal is riddled with error! Believing equals rceiving?...sorry, but this meets the criteria of witchcraft...Wierwille's teachings in pfal have caused far more harm to MORE people's lives than his drunken, adulterous behavior ever did...IMHO.
Edited by GrouchoMarxJrLink to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
...And furthermore:
A reoccurring theme here at the GSC is that people are full of bitterness and thus, their judgement is jaded...
...I have been out of twi for nearly 20 years now. My opinions about grifter Vic and his teachings are not based on emotion or on how it affected my life...Many of you have just recently left twi...many others had personal experiences that were devastating to their personal lives...
...My personal experiences with twi are FAR behind me. If I were a Vulcan, I would say that my opinions concerning twi teachings and VPW are "logical"...the facts are the facts. The man was a lying, adulterous drunk...his teachings (most of which were stolen from others) were mostly wrong and destructive to those who believed them.
You want to romanticize about the "good old days" in twi and continue to "hold fast" to the teachings of pfal? Good for you...I think you're foolish and need to find a life for yourself that is actually based in reality.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
Come on Groucho where the hell is Timothy Leary :) Now that was worth way more than PFAL and cost less.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Actually, there are probably some valid comparisons to being involved with twi and ingesting LSD...
...in both cases, delusional thoughts and hallucinations play a major role.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
Yeah but one ended over the weekend the other lasted too many years. I'll take the acid for twi anytime
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
How true...and Timothy Leary never asked for any abundant sharing either.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
Perfect Groucho - all Lery asked for was turn on, tune in and drop out - &$*# - WAIT didn't we do that with TWI - at least the drop out part LOL
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Actually...in twi, it was more like:
turn on, tune in, and drop your money into the horn of plenty.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
Damn - I haven't even thought of that stupid phrase for 20 years - horn of plenty... Wasn't that what Martindales wife called Rivenbark? What the hell was Martindale's wifes name again?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Agnes
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
911
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
Dwonna! That was her name. Dwonna f*(k Cragi - wanna F*(k Rosalie
Groucho tell me the acid hasn't taken away all of my memories
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
"Wimp!"
I just love that! Are there any other words here that come out differently?
Edited by Jonny LingoLink to comment
Share on other sites
satori001
But I've always allowed for the good that people brought with them to New Knoxville. Some went bad, some went home, some went to "the Word" and found shelter in the midst of TWI's corruption. They had their "rock," and not all the sodomy in Sodom could move them. Somehow. They "held fast" to the good. Good for them.
So Wierwille's innermost heart may have been black as tar and cold as the dead of winter, but no matter how much he used God and scripture to fill his bed and build his little empire, he projected a public image that good people found inspiring and credible, and it was THEY who were responsible for the good they found there. They responded to the bible, and to one another, and sure, to Wierwille's utterly false but believable image. So where should the real credit go?
I get a little impatient with them sometimes for not seeing their part, and for remaining loyal to "Doctor," crediting him when any believer would have to concede (first knowing the facts) that Wierwille was used for good despite his best, or worst, intentions to serve only himself. But I can't hold that same goodness and innocence against them because it makes them resist those facts, and their implications. I'm grateful for that goodness, because it was responsible for any good that I found at TWI too. God knows Wierwille & Company were not.
Sure there are some dopes who lurk - those "apologists" who must live to deny every deed dirty Vic ever perpetrated, to resurrect the exalted Vic and perpetuate his "absent Christ" mythology, replacing Christ with the risen Vic, a screwy view unique to Way World, one of many. I don't have much use for them.
But the great majority of good-hearted believers who, not for lack of tryin', Vic never hurt and the ministry never screwed (the notorious "lockbox, baby!" code was effective at sweeping @#$@ under the rug) are entitled to remember it the way it was, for them.
It is good of them to acknowledge the truth, to "validate" the hurt their brothers and sisters experienced, but like Jack says, some people can't handle the truth. Or maybe they're just not ready. That's not a crime. Life can suck enough in the here and now to keep them pretty busy, and they can't change the past. I can't blame them for not wanting to toss a season of their lives into the trash, and that's how they may feel about it.
If they come here, they need to acknowledge the reality of TWI, or they will be challenged on behalf of those who lived that reality. But I'm not inclined to look for a fight when I see some present or past Wayfer on the street who holds fond memories of Wierwille's cult. It took me quite a while put the cult scenario into place, and it wasn't so easy. I don't expect them to do it on my behalf, or anyone else's. They have to live their own lives, and hopefully, live happily.
Unless it's TWI or here at Greasespot, I'm sorry to read about any "war zone." I really am.
edited again, 8:55 PST
Edited by satori001Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Greeting to all you Campers and Groupies of all Categories,
First of all, my apologies for trying to pigeonhole the wonderful people here at GSC into any kind of groupings. Suffice it say that our one common thread is twi, and our experiences and reactions are too diverse to be narrowed down into a few groups. Any attempt to do so can easily elicit negative feedback, because generalizations can never capture the myriad of viewpoints posted here. I very much enjoy reading the differing perspectives and have learned a great deal from the variety on the menu here. The diversity at the GreaseSpot Café is to be celebrated, not homogenized.
Shazdancer, I so agree with your statement,
And a home with the peaceful co-existence of two ex-twi’ers would be the result from the above if each could be content with the other’s choice, and refrain from the “ verbal digs and arguments” in an attempt to force the other to accept their point of view. And when change is not effected, then escalate into bitterness and hostility, in hopes the other can be cowed into acceptance. What seems to be missing is Both parties here have been guilty of lacking respect and empathy, and are working on having them be the norm in our home again.ChasUFarley’s thread on Becoming Agnostic was wonderful for me. Her opening questions were great.
The major hurt and confusion in my life resulting from my years with twi did not rear it’s ugly head until about 15 years after we left. We both we in agreement that it was time to leave after the POP mess and the mark and avoid teachings came out. But we remained a Christian couple, and raising our children in a Christian household was of upmost importance to both of us. We visited local churches, and found one that we were comfortable attending. We were both very involved. Hubby taught Sunday School, became a deacon, was chairman of several committees. I taught adult and pre-school Sunday School, Children's Church, Vacation Bible School, worked with children's choir. I finally left after about 7 years when I was told I was no longer welcome, but hubby stayed on (and still teaches Sunday School there now). The kids and I visited other churches, but never found one for the family. The girls found ones they liked where a lot of their friends attended. Son attended with his cousins on occasion. And I found a home fellowship that was run by ex-corps that had moved back into the area. So we all had our church homes we liked, although not together, which would have been our preference. Then, as I start taking my son to fellowship with me, the bombshell hits, hubby announces he is an atheist and heated arguments fly over whether or not my son will be allowed to attend with me. I felt like I was in the middle of a Twilight Zone episode. How does my husband go from being a Christian to an atheist? And why does an atheist still attend church and teach Sunday School? There had been signs along the way, remarks about lots in the Bible being myths rather than truth, no more prayer as a family or a couple, but I had accepted his explanation that he was confused about some things and was sorting things out. I know people go through times of questioning their faith and can accept that, I just wasn’t ready for the I am an atheist stance. Believing as I do, that marriage is an institution ordained by God, not a piece of paper you pick up from the local justice of the peace, I was floored, really upset. To my mind, it was like the end of our marriage when he threw God out of the equation. It has taken several years, but I have finally been able to accept the wide chasm in our beliefs. (He tells me now he considers himself to be a Christian because he believes in the basic tenets of the religion - of being a good, moral, decent, ethical person - which he is and has always been. Of course, many religions teach these same basic principles, so he couldn’t he just as well consider himself to be Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.?). Nor was I ready for the don’t take my son around that cult who teaches nothing but bullsh** stance and his venomous attacks on my beliefs. After all, didn’t he often consult twi materials (among other reference materials) in preparing his Sunday School lessons? I had never been one to accept what vpw and/or twi taught hook, line, and sinker. If it did not make sense to me, if my research did not bear it out, I didn’t buy it. And I never had any qualms about taking my questions to my local leadership and discussing them. While in twi, I was always blessed with great local leadership who did not frown on questions nor demand blind acceptance of teachings from hq. If that hadn’t been the case, I would have been out of there in a heartbeat. So the long and the short of it is, we are still working through our differences, and both are committed to finding a zone of peaceful co-existence. We’re not there yet, but I think we will eventually arrive.Due to the bitter attacks I have received from him, as well as from others (some anti-twi, some twi-friendly, and some with no knowledge of twi) I guess I’m sensitive when I feel a post here carries that same venomous tone. And I have seen VERY FEW here, less than a handful. I have no problem with heated discussions and venting - in fact, I think they are beneficial. But attacks are something else. I know when I attacked my husband in the atheist aftermath, it was due to my confusion, hurt, and anger. I had to work through the turmoil of those emotions before I could get out of the attack mode and be able to have logical, calm disagreements and/or discussions. That is why when I think I detect that kind of bitterness here, it concerns me for that person. Working through the turmoil is painful and at times it seems it would be easier to just put a lid on it, and stay put in that place, versus pushing on. But if you stay stuck, things just fester and boil and come rushing out in a negative way. Though it’s hard, I think it’s much better to “face midnight” and keep pushing yourself until your heart is empty of the garbage, so true healing can take place. Over the past several years I have dealt with lots of personal garbage only to find that when one can is empty, another is waiting to be dealt with. But I’m glad I still have the stamina to keep with it, and hope that one day soon it will all be out at the curb ready for final pick up and disposal.
I do not mean to come across as airing dirty laundry in public. I think a major purpose of the GSC is a forum for people to come and discuss their questions and concerns, and use the feed back from others to help them through the healing process. Our differences in beliefs is common knowledge here, and I’m sure that the marital discord my husband and I are working through due to the divergent paths our journeys of faith took us after leaving twi are not unique. I obviously love him dearly or I would not strive so diligently to repair the damage in our relationship (and vice versa). In fact, the reason I am here at all is because of his constant urging over the last several years to visit and learn in hopes that we could come to a more common ground concerning our mind-set on twi.
Temple Lady, as I am still a relative newcomer to GSC, you would be in a better position than I to know
I have seen bitter posts from twi-friendly as well as anti-twi. I haven’t had enough exposure yet to be able to keep tabs. (By the way, I’ve really enjoyed learning more about the LDS from your thread. Our dental hygienist is LDS and I’ve learned a lot from her, and we have been comparing notes on Big Love - am glad it’s not slamming your church.)Belle, so true, the sweetness of my twi days was always at the grassroots level.
Ex10, yes, I think 99% of the posters here are venting, just as I am doing now. Guess I’ve blown the 1% that come off as bitter out of proportion. But it’s what stirred a response from me because of my internal churning as I continue to work through the garbage in my own life.
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts. I look forward to any feedback. I know it will be helpful to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
SudoSuda,
I cannot comprehend how difficult it would be to live with an apostate (please note, the word is the technically accurate word for his condition, it is not being used as an accusation), particularly one who announces that he is condescending to you...would have been far more "loving" of him to just keep his mouth shut...particularly after he made the decision for so many years to actively go through the motions...
I know for myself, it took a number of years before I would go back to the Catholic Church because I didn't want to cause a bunch of strife with my wife...until she wanted to convert...on her own terms.
But with you, it's not like you want to become an apostate to keep peace in the family, is it?
Godspeed...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: So, how does one become agnostic? Do you just wake up and go "gee, what God?" or did you think it over slowly and gradually say, "nope, no such thing!" . . . These are honest questions - not narrow minded - just wondering... how?”
Claiming to be agnostic, or atheist will give that person control over every conversation. It's a hard hearted response for sure, but as long as the door is closed there's not much you can do about it.
Why do they do it? I can only speculate. They possibly feel vulnerable and have to have control over every conversation (with an ex twi) to protect their hearts. Perhaps they once upon a time felt so secure in their faith that they were sure they'd never again have to doubt their faith, so when the dirt came out it was as though the whole thing was a scam. Remember that the sonship right "justified" meant just as if I'd never sinned? Well, now it's "just as if they'd never been righteous".
Like I said, it's a knee jerk response. Well, that's my best guess.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
MarkOMalley,
Had to look up the word apostate before I could answer your post.
And the aswer is unequivocally, no. I could not become an apostate. My love for God has been central to my life for as long as I can remember. It is the most defining component of my life.
After my parents had died, and we siblings were cleaning out the house, we found folders that our mother had kept of major projects/assignments in elementary school. In the 2nd grade we had to "write" a fill in the blank autobiography with statements like "My name is ____________." To the one, "When I want to grow up I want to be a _____________." my response was "good Christian." (I assume the answer the teacher was looking for was teacher, nurse, or some other vocation). When I read it some 40 odd years later (I did not even remember the assignment) it brought tears of joy to my eyes, realizing that my spiritual walk hand in hand with God had been the desire of my heart since childhood. And to this day, this is still what I want to be as I continue to grow older and wiser. Living a Christian lifestyle is my vocation.
Edited by sudossudaLink to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
And that's the point. You can't.
For you, to deny Christ is to deny yourself. I understand this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
(((((Suda)))))
I don't really have any great words of wisdom or any advice on how to reconcile the two beliefs in the house, but I can really relate to where Sudo is coming from. My experiences and thought processes are probably not very similar at all, but I think the frustration, anger and process of evaluation of what we were taught and always believed could have very similar parallels.
When something is confusing or seems wrong to me, I don't just take a step back - I go all the way back to the beginning and start over. Doing that, imo, takes all the preconceived notions out of the picture so that what I'm looking at seems to be free from being tainted. Sudo, actually, brings a great deal of logic and food for thought to the board and I've benefitted from his "hard questions".
What I did was go back to "OK, so I was raised Christian and to consider the Bible as very important - like a rule book and a "yearbook" of Christianity and God, if you will".
Where did this book come from? How and why do we put so much stock into it?
A friend introduced me to the book, "The Origin of Satan" which talks about where the devil came from in ancient history - not ancient Christianity - history.
I looked at the "facts" we know about the Bible itself - not the things IN it, but the actual Bible.
I looked at the Nag Hammadi Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Marcionites, the history of different religions and also their "sacred scrolls".
I looked at historical mythology, the tales of other cultures, religions and the tales and foundations of those things.
There's a lot of similarities....too many, imo, to ignore them and too many, imo, to come to the conclusion that Christianity and the God of Chrisitanity is the end all and be all of life and how we should believe and live.
There's also still lots of contradictions and evil that's really hard to reconcile. A god who kills? A god who commands that people be killed? (The explanations from all the various Chrisitan religions, really doesn't sufficiently answer that for me. It sounds like kids trying to make up bogus excuses, to me)
That being said, as I said on the agnostic thread Chas started - I'm afraid NOT to believe in God....a God...a supreme being of some sort. I just don't know, though. The alternative sounds pretty harsh, don't you think?
And, on other days, I pull on the scriptures that I learned growing up - not from TWI, but from growing up and post-TWI. I do believe in "loving your neighbor as yourself" and I do believe in taking care of your fellow man. Religion? Bah! It's got too many holes in it for me. But in two hours, I may feel differently. It's a perpetual state of confusion for me....
Almost like a part of me wants to believe, but it just swells up cognitive dissonance since I really don't believe the Bible to be all it's cracked up to be and that's the basis for all Christianity.
I've also read the book by the founder of skeptic.com - "Why People Believe Weird Things" - I started it out of interest in how easily I dropped believing in the Holocaust treachery merely because TWI said it didn't happen. It taught me a lot more about critical thinking and how folks can believe the most unbelieveable things.
I've pretty much decided I don't know and I don't care that I don't know. I reckon whatever God tells me when I die, will be what my sentence is and if He doesn't exist, then, well....at least I didn't spend my life trying to please a god who wasn't ever going to be pleased with me anyway since he made us unable to live up to his expectations.
p.s. these views are subject to change at a moment's notice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
IMO the idea that you can control and make someone else believe the way you want them to believe by reproof, correction, digs, jabs, arguements etc comes straight from TWI.
If the stakes are high enough, you might be able to get someone to pretend they believe the way you think they should--but what they do inside their own mind could be quite different.
A few years after we left TWI it became obvious that we had different interests in things spiritual. Hubby is agnostic (and doesn't try to control things with his agnosticism or what ever ), I'm pagan. There are no digs and jabs over belief or unbelief in our home.
If there were--well, I had years of experience in TWI of hiding what I really thought. I suspect it would be an easy habit to fall into again. Glad I don't have to.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Bramble, I completely agree.
We were taught to do this. We were taught it was important to do this. We were taught to be EAGER to do this.We don't have to confront anyone. It's pointless anyway -- as if that would make anyone go, "Gee, you're right, how silly of me."
Regards,
Shaz
Edited by shazdancerLink to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Belle,
Your approach to go back to ground zero, so to speak, seems like an honest and logical choice one could make. And the more hubby and I have discussed his change in beliefs, that's basically what I think he has done, also. It makes it much easier to accept his viewpoints once it is explained (versus defensive arguing or refusing to talk about it at all). But me floundering in the dark trying to understand was upsetting, to say the least.
But to his credit, I can see where when initially he found his beliefs to be polar opposites from me, and knowing how strongly I feel about my beliefs, it would make sense to just keep quiet on the subject until he had more clarity to what he believed. What would be the benefit in upsetting me when he wasn't even sure what he did and did not believe? Why subject me to his confusion? And maybe the reason he is still reluctant to engage in conversations is because, like you, he is still trying to figure out where he stands.
Bramble and shazdancer,
In response to
I don't think they invented it or cornered the market on it. I have seen this type of manipulation/control behavior in all facets of life, many of which had nothing to do with twi or any kind of religious group. Many examples in corporate life, while teaching at a university, in PTA meeting at children's schools, just to name a few. But from the posts I've read here, twi certainly worked on perfecting it.Of course such manipulative control only works in the short term, and is morally wrong. That's why it should have no place in family. That has been driven home to me clearly in dealing with my teenagers. As a parent, you realize you reach a point when you cannot and should not try to exert too much control over your children. You have to allow them the freedom to make their own choices, even if you know they are not in their best interests, or not in agreement with your preferences. You just have to hope and pray that the influence of your past instruction and current advice, when solicited, will help keep them out of too much hot water. But they can't grow and develop if you do not allow them the freedom to do so.
Learning should be a life time endeavor, and spouses will grow, mature, and change in the course of their relationship. Guess that's another area where good communication would be a real benefit. If you talk about it as you go along, no one would get knocked upside the head when a major shift takes place, as you've been kept abreast of the change as it evolves. Never think it's honest in a marriage relationship to hide what you really think, always better to get it out in the open and talk through it. You may not always agree on the subject, but at least you have a understanding of the what/when/where/how/who your spouse is coming from.
johniam,
Good words for me to ponder. Will have to mull over them more before I can respond.
Edited by sudossudaLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.