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Please guide me if there has already been a post on this topic, couldn't find it recently discussed- So! I have been realizing that the doctrine that A&E were totally separated from God/"died spiritually" immediately after falling in a totally black and white "picture", and the dispensational (administrations) doctrinal "boxing" taught by vpw et al has affected my life negatively. (I realize this is a huge topic, so will just throw out some thoughts, and see if anyone is interested...) There was zero Imago Dei teaching - that A&E were still functioning somewhat as God's image bearers. Or that GOD'S heart of unconditional love towards them did not change one iota; logically He would have grieved for the loss of the perfect relationship. And He had the plan for the Savior "ready to go". Eve believed she had birthed "a man from the Lord" - they still had many of the same Godly mental, emotional, etc patterns they had had, but now these would have been under attack, and the tempting, hindering, accusing, fear mongering, etc which is satan's influence in the world, would be influencing them. But they still had Truth deeply embedded and experimentally learned, correct? I also think Dispensationalism keeps us (it did me) from really connecting Jesus' character to that of Jehovah, Elohim, (et al His names and "sides") in the Old Testament. So, yes, A&E became carnal, as we were/I was before getting born again. However, God had knit me together in my Mom's womb, He was working over-time to draw me to Him, and I was drawing towards Him years before I actually invited Jesus into my heart. And He still works thru many ppl and situations, and is not at all limited to just those who have His spirit residing them and have declared a life-long commitment to Him. The "people without spirit are on the level of animals with just body and soul" teaching... That eroded humility and built up pride, and contributed to the "us/them dichotomy, like being the "special ppl", the born again ones, and then being in the "household" as well. Covenant theology, the little that I know of it, seems much more revealing of a God of continual Presence, grace, relationship, mercy, support, and love. God had a covenant w/ A&E which they broke, but He was right there with the solution in Jesus; He just continually "adjusted things" to give room for man's free will. BUT all along He had His Plan A, what with foreknowledge and all. I think there is a lot more accurate continuity with the perspective that God is always interacting w/ His ppl (and often others) as the same covenanting Father, rather than thinking of Him primarily as a "boxer upper" of administrations... And back to Adam and Eve - after they blew it, I think God got to really teach and help them, and then all mankind, right? (Well except for the nincompoops who just didn't listen.) Kind of like interacting with your teen-age adolescents - never a dull moment! Or like the younger son in the forgiving father parable, and the older bro as well... After A&E turned away and disobeyed (maybe even just for a few seconds?), He could really reveal so much more about His character and person than they could have known before the fall, especially for us in Jesus and after Pentecost... All for now. Blessings all!

Hello, Mike Barbour. God bless you. I'm sure a lot of us are interested in what you wrote. Unfortunately, you submitted a "text-block" - a huge block of text that is hard to read comfortably. As a public service, I'm going to repost what you wrote, adding ONLY the spaces, so that we can read what you wrote comfortably. I will NOT change ONE WORD of your text-block. Ok, here goes. Mike Barbour posted (above) the following....... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Until the Way leadership repents and apologizes for it's sins, sins either by commission or omission, then I will have nothing more to do with them. I believe Dr. Weirwille did teach the Truth to the best of his ability and certainly challenged each of us to prove the scriptures for ourselves. He said the Way never makes anybody leave, just anybody. Well, the homophobic, self righteous bastard that followed him certainly dispelled that myth. I had a very long talk with Wanda Weirwille right after everything came out about the sex scenes. She openly admitted it was happening, unlike any of those in leadership positions. I told her I care about TWI but I can't stand in support of what leadership was doing behind closed doors. Teaching one thing and doing another is NOT okay, it's hypocritical at best and insidious. Letting the Devil in even a little bit means you've lost any legitimacy you might have ever had. I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in the Word that it's ok to lead a double life, nor is it ok to yell at and berate people. Being especially good to those of the household of faith means you have to actually BE that! What Martindale did and the rest of them, and yes, even VPW is not something that is tolerable in least sense. Excusing it is even worse. I entered the Way when I was completely lost. I was healed by the Word. I thought we were surrounded by good men and women. I never put my faith in man, my faith is and always remained having my faith in God. I believe we were taught more Truth than any other organization on the planet, and I still believe that to be true. There were faults that crept in, having superiority complexes for a start, perpetuated over and over again, especially by Craig Martindale. Of course VPW did that as well, anyone born again is of the household of faith, not those just in the Way. It always bothered me the title bestowed on VPW. The father in the word was damn near blasphemy! God is our Father, not VPW. This among other things let the fox into the henhouse so to speak. The I can sleep with any number of women I want was another one. Even if God hadn't changed, old testament people having multiple wives, that's fine, but they weren't teaching that NOR were they taking in multiple wives. The sex club was out of bounds for anything God ever said was ok. The homophobia and purging after VPW died is also against God's Word. NO one has any scripture saying you kick "sinners" out to the curb. That goes against everything Jesus did and taught his disciples to do and nowhere does God allow that. There is a specific instance where God says to hand someone over to the adversary. But, if that's what they were justifying what did upon they were dead wrong. That scripture deals with disruptive people who are inside causing trouble and being disruptive to the body. That's not why they were throwing people out on their foot. Tbey were throwing anyone out who dared to question them about anything. Or who they believed were somehow a threat, like gay people, who news flash, are usually some of the least troublesome people you'd ever meet. I don't know their heads got so big they thought they were doing God's work. Except as I said, you give the Devil an inch and he will steal, kill and destroy everything of God. You can't serve two masters. You can claim to be serving one, but if you're serving the other then you're not serving one. You can't teach people one thing and do another and call yourself serving God. Mistakes and sins can be forgiven, but purposely lying and covering up a double life doesn't leave time to serve God. Now, if they had come out and said this is what we are doing and here is what God says about and why it's ok, and research had been done proving they are living a life decent and in order according to God's Word, then we would have had a starting point to start figuring out if they were telling us Truth. But, of course they couldn't, so they chose to hide it behind closed doors until men and women decided enough already, and brought their double lives to light. Then, OMG, they had to purge people because God forbid anyone stand up to them with doctrine! Like John Shoengeit (spelling?) did with his research paper during a time the Research Ministry was, gasp, suspended. You can't call yourself one thing and refuse to do it. Martindale decided then we had to get back to basics. Basic what? Idolatry? Polishing the pedestal VPW was placed on? Basic what exactly? Isn't it basic scripture you were using to sleep with multiple women? Oh, NO, of course it wasn't. So how dare someone research to see if it's ok to be unfaithful to your wife/husband?! Then get thrown on his foot when his paper says, shocker, it's not ok. Anyone around during that time either knew it was happening or were part of it. So, anyone that remained after it was exposed was either supporting it directly or indirectly. I went one step further and recalled scripture not to believe anything against an elder except in the case of 2 or 3 witnesses. I got multiple witnesses before I ever saw Wanda Weirwille. So, until leadership apologizes for the wrong they did or supported and takes responsibility for the blatantly false doctrine perpetuated by all the leaders, our only Father being God, anyone born again in the household of faith etc. I just will support doctrinal and practical errors. They truly do owe a huge apology to everyone they hurt or continue to hurt because we all were hungry for the Truth, but the double lives and serving Satan at the head by perpetuating outright lies and not being repentent when confronted with the Truth, well, we are left with the only option left to us, hand them over to the adversary and walk away. Heartbroken and weeping, but necessary because God doesn't allow leaders and elders to live double lives and He is clear on what we are to do. Confront them with the Truth and with witnesses. We did, and they marked us and threw us out. Newsflash for them, they are the ones who were marked and thrown out, not us. It is more difficult to serve God now but God never said I'll make it simple and keep a ministry walking on my Word for you to have and support you. So, we do what we can and believe God regardless. But, new presidents with old ways are still unacceptable and if they stood on the Word, they can not stand with ministry committing blashphemy, or unapologetic for trying to destroy people's lives who were doing the right thing. I believe God taught Dr. Weirwille and I believe what he taught was mostly right, and taught with his understanding at the time. I don't know that anyone will ever be 100% right because we do not have perfect originals to go by. But, by revelation and a willingness to work the Word God can show us many things. Knowledge puffeth up, and it certainly did in the Way. It seems that leads to corruption as well. I don't know at what point that started, but I do think it was later rather than sooner. All I know is I learned how to work the word for myself and gained a lot of knowledge, some was blatantly wrong but most was as close to the Truth as I think we will ever come. It is a real shame leadership lost any meekness or humility and decided to walk away from God en masse, and remove peoole en masse. With a few changes God would have still blessed it and us as a group, but Satan got his grubby little hands involved and ruined it for everyone. I'm not sure they will ever come back from that, because they are choosing arrogance over humility.

Thank you! It's a learning exercise to write my thoughts out this way. Over the years I have notes, we all probably do on different things and it's fun to to write it out. For me it writes different than it speaks, and speaks different than it thinks, and it gets clarified in the process, if that makes sense. annio really said it all regarding the study of administrations in this original statement - " I think there is a lot more accurate continuity with the perspective that God is always interacting w/ His ppl (and often others) as the same covenanting Father, rather than thinking of Him primarily as a "boxer upper" of administrations..." "Administrations" aren't outlined in the Bible the way we try to outline them as a hierarchy with hard stops and starts and break points noted in the texts by the author. Rocky's noted that the Bible is a collection of stories, of books, and that's true. We can understand them as an entire story and narrative then with a beginning and end (page 1, page 200, last page, etc) but that's not the actual story - is it? That's the book. It came to us in the format of the writers and their times. I would always see it first as history, a historical view of mankind's story from the earliest creation to the future completion of God's purposes for it all, and it's all told from the human angle, our voice. Today everything has rolled up into Christ the Savior. As annio stated there's a flow of events between God and His creation, and the changes that occur within that. It's a much easier way to read the Bible and if it does indeed speak for itself it will as we read it and learn it. So while I might use the idea of labelling the more obvious segments of the history and learning what changes and what stays the same I haven't found any great value to nailing that down till it hurts. Like say, the debate over the ending of the era of the apostles and there being an end to the gifts of holy spirit life manifesting in tongues, prophecy, healing, etc. Clarifying it as a change or no-change in "administrations" doesn't really do anything to move the needle on the real question which is - what does it say happened and does it say anywhere or read in the story we see that anyone written about declared an end to it, or for that matter even a start? And the answer I think is "no". So again, if I clear the table of the arguments over how many administrations can balance on the head of a goldfish, is there anything left and if so, what? And I figure, yes there is and it's.....etc. etc. We know the Bible didn't come to us as a textbook or manual. It does contain some things like that, Proverbs, Psalms, but they're not organized and cross referenced with footnotes as directed by God, they stand on their own word and order, as - is. So, it's not a textbook with an index, it doesn't start out "I the Lord God of all creation will now explain myself, my purposes and how this is all going to work. Let's start at the beginning. Remember there's maps and a glossary at the back of your set of manuals so make sure you have the current versions...." Nor does it lay out as a set of instructions - "Chapter 1 - What To Do Immediately After You're Born", or anything like that. As I grew up in the Way years, when I used to integrate these things into teachings people would usually get it and sometimes I could almost see light bulbs going off in our heads, first the bulb then the soft glow of awareness. Kind of like being in a well lit bookstore, in the back around a table in a room with windows, on a sunny day. That's how if feels to me anyway. : ) It goes to a place where there's no fight or debate or struggle. Instead there's study, discussion, listening, learning and hopefully understanding. God gave me peace with Him through Christ, I enjoy it. Cheers!