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Hi - just saw this. I'm into my second year of making sourdough bread at home. I have been humbled more times than I want to say, so take this with a grain of alkalinity seltzer. Still learning and re learning things I've learned, and I'm a complete novice/amateur/beginner, but getting more consistent results as time goes on. I think. Maybe. i've encountered exactly what you're describing, mostly in whole grain but occasionally with white flours. I've tried adding yeast - self defeating and doesn't help much. Baking powder or soda, not great results. I've used carbonated water and it basically adds more air bubbles for the starter to bubble in but it won't contribute to the actual "rise". May add some flavor too though, which isn't bad It starts with the Starter - I have to work with it until it's super active - that means the starter will increase noticeably as I feed it and wait - say within 8 hours a really active starter will increase 50% in size and ideally "double". When it's doing that, make your loaves as soon as possible, using the starter. I use a "1,2,3" rule for mixing dough - 1 part starter, 2 parts water, 3 parts flour. No more than a teaspoon of salt although you don't have to add that. They say to use weight instead of measuring - I've done both, either, whatever. I may add more water as I go, or flour, but having a good amount of starter in to begin with helps it to rise. The resulting dough ball will hold it's shape without immediately sagging or falling. If the starter was lively to begin with the proofing should see rising within 4- 6 hours, I'm ready at about 8, but can take longer. I've gotten good results going right from that first proof to a quick shaping and then second proof of maybe 1-2 hours or so and then onto my pan. I put a small tray of water in the back of my oven, to moisturize the bake - supposedly that gives it the thin crunch crust which is what I want and it seems to work. Then I bake at 390 for about 30 minutes. I don't back at higher temps as my oven seems to run hotter over longer times and I've ended up with bricks at higher temps. Here's a few rolls I got, below. They started as about half that size, and rose. I don't think I did a second proof with them, they ballooned right up. don't have a pic of the slice, but they were airy and "bubbly" inside. Having said that, I too am a batch away from my next set of bricks. Its' an elusive sport, this. BUT MAN THEY TASTE GREAT WHEN I GET IT RIGHT. Let us know how you do!

The problem I have had is the sourdough bread not rising. It tastes delicious, but is so compacted the loaf is about half the height of a regular slice. This doesn’t make for good sandwiches. I will use the baking soda and powder the next time and see how it goes. i saw a recipe for beer bread-haven’t tried it- but the only ingredients were beer, flour, and sugar. Just looking at the picture of the loaf, it appeared to rise to normal height. The top of the loaf was not smooth, but quite lumpy looking. The recipe did not call for self rising flour, but that may have been what was used.

Agreed, it's a well beaten horse at this point. Dialectical thinking moves many of the discussions on GS forward. It can be assumed that if there's interest it will generate questions, inquiry. In fact I think dialectics is one of the stronger methodologies exhibited in online discussion groups like GS. Because it's inherently arbitrary and can allow for resident skepticism it's not always a satisfying way to come to a conclusion, however it is a very useful way for normal and reasonable discussions to take place.

Actually, she uses self-rising flour, which has both mixed in already. We were watching a TV miniseries the other week that had someone demonstrate something like what you proposed. In England during the Victorian period (2nd 1/2 of the 1800s), they started to learn about germs and so on, and some people became obsessed with cleaning (while others were jammed together in squalor because the citizens all rushed into the cities all at once, overpopulating them until a LOT more housing could be built.) When they also learned about how yeast worked, part of the population was squicked at the idea of eating a baked product that relied on some kind of germ. So, someone invented a bread that didn't use yeast (before the baking soda/powder type was invented.) We saw a scientist demonstrate how it worked. He needed the carbonated water and something similar to a pressure cooker that forced the gas to remain dissolved. So, if all of that was correct- and I believe it was- then simply carbonated water shouldn't be enough to get the bread to rise significantly. Of course, you may just want it not to rise. Unleavened bread is still eaten to this day, and you can make pizza at home using all-purpose flour with nothing to make it rise. (I know because I ate some this week.)

I agree with you DogLover, I think the food, time to nap, play and fellowship were great ; that's why I used the phrase "a controlled environment that tries to approximate the “domain” of the in-residence part of the way corps program" ....approximate: close to the actual, but not completely accurate or exact. If PFAL ’77 was conducted exactly like the in-residence way corps program – you might have seen a lot of unsuspecting attendees suddenly run for the hills. == == == == == == == == Attention - to all reading this thread: And just to elaborate on the reason I started this thread – I just thought I ‘d give everyone a chance to read or post any of their memories from TWI – good, bad or indifferent. Sometimes something remembered from the past can evoke a mix of good and bad feelings and perhaps the memory might even have some uninteresting, benign or bland aspects to it depending on how you slice it and dice it. As an example, I really enjoyed Skyrider's post about him figuring out the shortcut to stringing chairs by observing the indentations in the carpet. To me that was a good way (less tedious – more efficient) of dealing with a bad situation (having to string chairs, indentured servitude). If someone was never in the corps or never had to do that or couldn’t care less about being tasked with such an antiquated technique I imagine they would probably feel indifferent about Skyrider’s post. These recent posts by myself and DogLover are another example. My first post about PFAL ’77 focused on the bad aspects of it – the loooooooooong sessions and the element of some control afforded to TWI by taking over a campus for a course not open to non-grads of PFAL (referring to the original class…but I don’t know, maybe they did allow some non-grads to take PFAL ’77 – if anyone knows please chime in). DogLover focused on the good aspects of PFAL ’77 - the food, time to nap, play and fellowship – which I thought were good too. I suppose if someone didn’t mind the loooooooooong sessions, the halfway house atmosphere to help grads see the greatness of living in an alternate reality... and... could go either way on the food and self-structure time, I imagine they’d feel indifferent about PFAL ’77.