Leaderboard

The Way due to its inherent narcissism distilled as culture from the founder has never been known to collaborate with others in the Christian community or secular expert community. 12 step has probably done more genuine good for more people throughout its existence than the Way has. Just look at numbers it is a no brainer.

*quotes James 1:22-25 . . . worry doubt and fear from some class . . . and the gingerbread man*

GOOD PEOPLE, GOOD LEADERS WALK AWAY. More later………. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The scriptures warn us of evil men, seducers, deceivers, taskmasters, etc......those who desire to ensnare us. Whether it be Pharisees or Pharaohs, the truth is plain to see: BEWARE and REBUKE. The first usage of this word "snare" is seen in......Exodus 10:7 And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God. Recognizing an unholy alliance and/or covenant towards man's authority is the first step towards freedom. Down thru the ages, even to this day.....evil, arrogant aspirations of men and organizations are around every corner to entice and subjugate. Most every organization and/or movement targets the youth. They are the most vulnerable. Young minds are malleable.....and once groomed to discipleship, they provide decades of value (return on investment). Deception is key and thus, there seems to be an intermediary (a groomed peer) placed in a position to "run the ruse." The deceiver is stealthily hidden from view. More often than not....down thru the years, way corps were the groomed intermediaries sent out to ensnare others into the corps, into subjugation. We were consistently taught (especially behind closed doors in the corps program).......that those who left were "cop outs." I REJECT THAT PREMISE. What's to say that THOSE who walked away from wierwille's corps-subjugation program were the strong ones, mighty for the Lord, valiant for the TRUTH? Perez, Heefner, Doop, Somerville, etc......these were the ones seeing the power of the Lord in manifestation. On the streets healing drug addicts, turning hearts to the Lord. Signs. Miracles. Wonders. That's what was happening in the early 70s.......TRUE REVIVAL. Yes, they were running back-to-back classes, but I contend that it was merely a small framework of the dynamic outreach!! Walking in His presence. Ever-mindful of His spirit. Full-rejoicing in His glorious power to saints and sinners alike in the most precious name of our lord and savior Jesus Christ. The true revival was spearheaded by humble men of sinful nature who stood tall in His mercy and grace!!! Wierwille, time and again......thwarted energized ministries and co-opted individuals for his own selfish purposes. If there was any value to a structured learning environment like the corps program......it could have (should have) been like 3-4 months long, tops! No more. Crap, if you can't teach energized people these truths in 4 months......then, you're a counterfeit. Wierwille was a subjugating counterfeit..... claiming to be some "great one" (read: Acts 8 -- Simon the sorcerer). All that gobbledygook of twi being "the true household, the true remnant"......is junk bible talk. Down thru the ages, the true remnant are those who cleave to the truths of John 15:1-8.......I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (etc.) Good people, good leaders have been walking away from twi since wierwille's days in Van Wert. The church board voted unanimously to have his name stricken from the clergy register......and they were absolutely right in doing so. .

GOOD PEOPLE, GOOD LEADERS WALK AWAY More to come ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Time and again, we hear the GSC-accounts of good leaders walking away from twi. With documented evidence, it certainly raises the issue, "What would have happened in twi and around the country if these good men and women wouldn't have been driven away?" Another insightful post by DWBH: john som---ille has a phd in physical education......he has been married to mary wie===lle for over 30 years now.......he is a high ranking officer in the usmc reserves, (if he is not yet retired from the reserves).......he was an assistant to woody hayes at ohio state university when woody was the head football coach there......his brother tim and john started the way's "work" in north carolina at ecu.......john is a viet nam veteran......vic used to tell us that john volunteered for duty in viet nam in order to prove that the revelation and power manifestations are real and work as vic taught them to wayfers in the advanced class.....john is a decorated officer for his outstanding military service in viet nam, as well as numerous other outstanding achievements in the marine corps......he has also worked in an advisory capacity with the idf.....israeli defense forces....in israel.....work for which he was recognized again by the u.s. military, as well as the idf.......i first met john in 1972 when several of us way east branch coordinators were invited to hq by vic after the firing of steve heefner during the ac in rye, ny in april of 72...........to see vic's "heart" and the "heart of the ministry" so's we would stick with twi and not "run off" with heefner and others after the "not so subtle" power play by twi in it's complete takeover of the way east..........at that time, john was in charge of "college outreach" for twi and was the man who designed the physical trainng program that was part of the corps training back then...........he was definitely a "man's man" during the entire time that i knew him back then.......absolutely respected by us corps "kids" and, generally respected throughout the ministry as far as i could tell............he also coordinated twi's original holy land tours.......and led several of them with great success and excitement back in the early 70's.........my personal experiences with john were always positive and i held in him in high regard, as i do to this day....although my last personal contact with him was back in the late 70's...... john was his own man.......during my first year in da corps (the way corps, that is)....we took his class on old testament history.....which was excellent btw......and i began to see the first glimpses of his conflict with vic..........glimpses that became less and less private as that year unfolded..........he had a "knack" for really pizzing vic off with his unflinching honesty and "sarcastic" humor in the face of some really intense "facemeltings" directed at him by vic, both pubicly and privately!!.........vic would criticize john publicly about something he would teach or say during the old t class, and john would throw it right back at vic.......it was great to observe!!!!..........vic often publicly ranted about john's "ego problem" with vic..........and i mean rant!!.....you know, that purple-faced, neck-vein popping kinda rant that only vic could perform!!.........made the dancing prez look like a mickey mouse version of ranting!!..........my take on these rants??.......vic was deeply jealous of john's obvious intelligence and the real achievements of john academically, as a true military "hero", and at his refusal to compromise his own integrity as a "man's man" in the face of the vicious verbal assaults and personal attacks from his father-in-law!!..........he was jealous of john because john was real, not just a pompous phoney like his father-in-law!.....vic feared john, because, in spite of vic's best shots, vic could not break his son-in-law!!...i had several profound, personal conversations with john about my observations of his relationship with vic.......honest, probing and quite revealing conversations for which i am still grateful today to john for engaging in with me......... in 1974, john left hq and set up the total fitness instiute (tfi) in north fork, ca with the financial assistance of j--n s. l--n and the "blessing" of vic..........tfi was to become the real testing and training ground for the way corps folks.........the experience which would really show vic who his toughest future leaders and workers would be..........it was also open to public sessions which were like twi's version of outward bound, and it rapidly gained a popularity among the corps and non-corps attendees as a real test of a believer's mettle when it came to operating all-9-all-the- time..........it was the precursor to LEAD, which was the vic perverted and controlled version of what john had in mind for tfi!.........it was during the tfi sessions of the spring of 1975 that vic first "ordered" john do the pow camp thingy...... i was on the field in my interim year corps assignment (we were the first corps to have one).......and my lc was one of the attendees at the tfi session where martindale and other "top" corps leaders were given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word.........it was a very real experience of what a pow camp might have been like if those circumstances regarding the fall of the usa had been true..........martindale was not the "only survivor" of this pow camp passionplay..........he started an "escape attempt" type of maneuver during which he caused the "deaths" of most of his fellow "prisoners" by his feeble attempt at being the hero/leader........a maneuver for which he was roundly criticized in his final tfi evaluation which was written by john som---ille on each of the participants..........there were several participants who were indeed "broken" during this experiment.......and their "reward" was humiliation in front of the corps and they were never really "trusted" again with choice leadership assignments because of their proven weakness in the face of the enemy!!!...........the participants were sworn to secrecy.....so that the pow experiments could continue unhindered during future tfi sessions..........but, as you can tell from the amount of info i gathered from my lc upon his return, the secret got out fast.........but the pow experiments continued through the tfi session of that spring and summer until october, 1975..........when there were some serious physical and psycho-emotional injuries that occurred during tfi...........all of which, vic blamed on the "total lack of believing" on the part of those "injured"............i did my tfi trip in november, 1975..........and although several of the pow situations were thrown at us.....the pow scenario itself had been watered down so as to avoid any further injuries......... the tfi experience for the in-rez corps involved the following "rules"..........each tfi group was to hitch-hike to and from north fork in "couples", that is, you chose your travelling partner from among the group........we were encouraged not to choose our spouses, but my spouse was under 20 at the time so i refused to let her go with anyone else..........each person was given a $20 bill so as not to get busted for vagrancy if stopped or questioned by state or local police while hitch-hiking.........it was made plain that if you did not arrive at north fork with the entire $20 you would be immediatley turned back to hitch-hike home.......or, if you made it back without the $20 intact you would receive a failing final evaluation.........you were allotted 72 hours maximum to make the trip each way.......if you took more than 72 hours to get there, you were again immediately turned back to hitch-hike home, refused participation in the tfi program......if you took more than 72 hours to get back home, you again were giving a failing final evaluation.........my wife and i were dropped off at a truck stop near I-75 and it's juncture with I-70 at about 6pm and we then had 72 hours to make our way to north fork, ca........by hook or by crook...........we made it in 70 hours.........no sleep, no stopping, both our $20 bills in pocket!!...........i remember how sad i felt for the unfortunate few who took longer than 72 hours to get there........i literally cried as i watched them turned around after their grueling trip out to ca, no food, no rest.......just a facemelting phone call from vic telling them they flunked and that they better make it home on time or they'd be kicked out of the corps!!..........i watched 6 people have to go through that bs!............ before i left for tfi, i was called to vic's office for a "meetring" with him.........we sat out on the porch by his office, smoking a couple of cigarrettes..........vic asked me to keep our conversation "confidential".........he said that he knew that i had become "close" to john som---ille, during my first year in-rez........he said he knew that i could "talk with john "man-to-man"..........he said that john's "unbridled ego" was going to ruin tfi.........he just was not "seeing" what father wanted vic to do with tfi.......he said john was once again "fighting him" (vic) on the "guidance" god was providing........and he asked me to try to talk with john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law, hoping that maybe i could "get through to him"..............so, on a cliff overhanging the sierra nevada mountains, having just successfully scaled jackass rock, with only john and jack wilson with me (i had been "banned" from the group assault on jackass rock the day before for taking an "unauthorized picture" of two lindas relieving their bladders behind a log while we were all tied together by a single rope for the day's hike to the foot of jackass rock.........lol!).........while jack was busy preparing for the descent, i had my "man-to-man" talk with john..........one of the greatest conversations i ever had with any wayfer in my life, brutally honest, refreshingly quiet in tone with mutual respect........needless to say,.....i never really "got through" to john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law!!..........by the end of my first question and his respnse, i saw there was absolutely no need for me to..........there was not a thing wrong with john's ego..........the problems were with the ego of his father-in-law!!!........... soooo,...........what's my point???...............the entire confrontation session you poor FLO folks had with that guy who probably lived in a van down by the olentangy river was just another perverted distortion of what had been a good idea of john som---ille's that was perverted, twisted, and morphed into another psychosocial torture mechanism designed by vic to break down and control the most willing and faithful followers of his way in ohio..........arranged by a lc who was as afraid of the whole thing as you were, but who was more afraid of what his "father-in-the-word" would do or say if he did'nt carry out his orders!!............i hope your "facilitator" was not bill m--ze.........but it very well could have been..........bill was a terrific dale carnegie isnstructor whom vic "took under his wing" and also eventually destroyed what started out as a unique and valuable service to the corps........bill was tied to vic all the way back to the chimes hour youth caravan daze........he was almost like an "adopted son" of vic's,.......and we all know too well what that can do to a man!............ sorry for the length of this post.......but the memories sometimes come in waves..........................peace. .

Mike, you didn't "make" any "points." You made a few CLAIMS. Anyone can make any CLAIM. It doesn't become a point until it's actually SUPPORTED BY SOMETHING. Especially ridiculous-sounding complaints should be supported by something substantial, otherwise they just sound like nonsense- and probably are. I've supported silly claims in the Harry Potter fandom better than you support your claims here- and I was doing so in jest. If you honestly think that "You think that a Christian has to be someone real special or something if they want to do significant work with and for God" applies to ANYONE here- let alone "many others here" as you said, you're really not experiencing the same posts and threads everyone else is- which is old news, really. You keep objecting to things that nobody ever posted. "Why should I waste my time on detailed, exhaustive debate with people who are unthankful for being taught that God is good?" You're fond of claiming you can get into discussions and address points, but have always had extensive excuses as to why you never delivered. BTW, it's hard to get people to agree that you have no problem with discussion and debate when they know that you've freely acknowledged that you choose to "dodge, distract, but never admit an error is an error" - and only doubled-down on that and claimed it's what you're supposed to do. As for people being "unthankful for being taught that God is good", there's probably a messageboard where people object to that, but this was never that board. "AND for showing everyone reading with a brain that you have NO IDEA how to address the points I made. " Mike, you of all posters really are ill-equipped to claim to speak for "everyone reading with a brain." pfal said right in pfal that it consists of KEYS, and it does NOT contain "Genesis to Revelation," but you claimed that it's Scripture now, and has REPLACED Genesis to Revelation rather than being keys to understanding them. Where pfal outlined HOW to "get back to the original so we can say 'thus saith the LORD'", you've claimed that doing so is impossible- while claiming that pfal was inerrant. So, trying to get converts from people who know your reading comprehension is seriously compromised by your doctrine is foredoomed to failure. Naturally, that doesn't matter much, because periodically you go away, announce in your own mind that you successfully refuted everything we had to say and that we were unable to refute you, and that your system is still unassailable. That may give you comfort (it wouldn't give me comfort), but it doesn't change how completely you've been refuted year after year, only to return and claim that never happened. Since the old threads are still here, "everyone reading with a brain" can go read through them themselves and see what happened.

There is plenty of literature on the subject now, including but not limited to: The Confidence Game Malignant Pied Pipers of our Time Undertow The Cult that Snapped Dark Persuasion Any book by Steven Hassan and several more. Key is that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN is subject to being conned. What constitutes and how to develop and foster critical thinking skill can be (and sometimes IS) taught in k-12 schools AND by/in families. Historical and cultural literacy is crucial background knowledge/understanding that can help immunize people young and old against (religious and political) cults.

Thanks chockfull......yes, it is enlightening to tie historical accounts of twi from a field perspective for others to see. Today's chumps who sit in twi's "directors" chairs are little more than glassy-eyed loyalists to the groupthink message of "...praise be to wierwille." DWBH post Your post reminded me of why in the hell I decided to go into the way corpse in the first place. It was right after the 2nd and 3rd corpses came into NY, on the first of what were to become known as “Lightbearers”......the in-Rez corpse “practical challenge” to prove the efficacy and reality of the corpse training in the the lives of “god’s most committed” followers of the way. That was in the late spring and early summer of 1973. It was the 2nd corpse (graduating that August) and the 3rd corpse (finishing up their first year in-Rez). Unlike the subsequent “practical challenges” of “Lightbearers” groups, which were primarily made up of getting a piffle class together within a two week visit to an area of “concern, interest, and need”, this group was sent out on the mission to kick foot, take names, and “straighten things out” in the limb of NY, which had been hit very hard by the putsch-like firing of Steve and Sandi Heefener in March of 1972, and the resistance to Boob and Doody Moneyhands having been brought in as the new limb bosses. I had been a “full-time ministry employee” at the way of Long Island from September 1971 through May, 1972. Steve and Laurie Perez were the full-time area leaders for the way of Long Island, which they started from scratch in the fall of 1970. There was an authentic Christian “revival” in lower NY among the young people and hippies of the time. Steve and Laurie sparked a non-stop slew of piffle film classes at a clip of 4 or 5 a month from Suffolk, Nassau & Queens, for 12 months in a row, leading up to the AC in Rye, NY in March, 1972, during which the Heefners were publically slandered and spitefully fired. When the Heefners got fired, the Perezs quit. That left Ed Goebel, John Petty, and me as the remaining full-timers down in lower NY from the 5 boroughs of the City to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. We all decided to quit full-time employment with the way of NY, but, except for Ed, we retained our oversized branches to keep running classes. At that time, the whole “blue form” send all the $$ to HQ thing began too! So, it had been quite a year of fighting and resisting for the lower NY areas by the time the 2nd and 3rd showed up in June of 1973. I was busy getting ready for the ROA ‘73 and finalizing my decision on whether or not to go into the corpse that fall. I got married in July of that year and 2 weeks later was at HQ for summer school and in-Rez. I was playing back- up guitar for Cliff, and lead guitar for Sweet Fellowship (most of whom were going into the 4th corpse) and we backed-up a whole bunch of other groups from the Northeast. Doug MacMullan was 3rd Corpse and he was specifically assigned to work with all us “way productions” people to get us ready for the ROA that year. It was total HELL! LOL! Rehearsals were these 14 hour marathons at Ray Bertine’s parents’ farm in upstate NY, with Mac Mullan telling us to smile, and move, and look at the audience, and, and, and, and........., It was during that week of rehearsals at the farm, that I made the decision to go into the corpse. My thoughts were these: I could see the handwriting on the subway walks pretty damn clearly! If anyone wanted to have any leadership position in the way it would eventually require doing time in da corpse! THAT was made quite obvious to us by vp himself during that month-long Advanced Class in Rye, and by Boob and Doody with their smarmy obsequious worship of all things dictor paul, and by the book bondage”leadership” style. I just wanted to get married, run the Queens/Brooklyn Area Of NY for the way, and make my living playing music. I did NOT want to go be a limp leader or staff person somewhere. I wanted to stay in NY, get married, play music, and “move da word”!! LOL! There’s the language manipulation again!! Well, once we were in the way corpse gulag at HQ, EVERYTHING CHANGED! VP had big plans for us Way Productions keedz that we had no idea about! Then, suddenly, there was an Interim year added!!! WTF?? And then......JCING came out.....and then PFAL ‘77.....and then AC ‘79......and then The 40th Anniversary Year weekends, Living Victoriously, The Installation of Da forehead on the 40th Anniversary, Sound Out ‘84.....WIBAP.......one mega event after another and no time to think about what the hell we were doing other than we were “just moving the word”!! Well that wound up a big bust! LOL! Point of it all being, I never went into the way corpse to be a lifelong ful-time “Minister”! I just wanted to get married, run a branch or two for the way of NY in the City, and play music. I only wanted the corpse so HQ would leave us alone in NY! Leave us alone to run classes, glorify Jesus, play music, have fun, and live life! But, dictor Paul had other ideas. He manipulated the meaning of “a lifetime of Christian service” into a lifetime of indentured servitude to his personal perverted peccadilloes and pathological illnesses. I pity the fool. .

Instead of a bong, they'll be passing around a bottle of Prevagen.

Wow great thread sky and all. Threads like these tie together the history that the Way desperately wants to hide from its followers. A detailed analysis of the people and components involved from mature minds that are no longer 20 - 25 year’s old. The small bit I have to contribute is from the one time I traveled to the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco and had a look around at all the 1960s hippie counter culture history. There were many attractions during this time period including the Grateful Dead house at 710 Ashbury Jerry Garcia’s house. Free love, psychedelics, the Bible were all a major part of the hippie Jesus counterculture movement of the 60s. I believe Doop hung out at a storefront there called The Living Room, which was a lounge area for kids to get together and talk about God and the Bible. Wierwille being slightly older at that time probably developed his leisure suit Larry look during that time trying to fit in as “The Doctor”. Getting these hippies out to the farm, drying them out, teaching them some etiquette (Dorothy Owens) and propping them up as new respectable ordained ministers was Vics methodology. Then shuffle them around enough they don’t have time to form their own Living Room type influence locally, and come up with a lame excuse to collect all the money centrally. But they were too lazy to be able to do that outside the USA. So international Way is 3x the cluster f. In Africa the Way is 100% cultural appropriation Christianity exactly like the paper Vic wrote criticizing foreign missions in his old denomination. No he didn’t do it better when he was in charge. Other areas were strong personalities and did whatever they wanted and kept the money internationally. The money is why international followers splintered off ahead of the USA body of lemmings. USA has just been under the 2 current VP d bags doing RFRs bidding for a couple decades, growing smaller and more disconnected from the world. Now they are free to do whatever they want with the 10 followers left. Their current campaign of returning to the good old days and inviting the youth to a music festival is about as lame as a retirement community leisure suit, which is what they will be wearing there.

This popped up in my Facebook feed this morning and immediately I felt I had to share it with this group. Maybe there's someone here who really needs to hear this. Watch | Facebook (<5 mins) Don't let your life get paralysed by someone else's negativity.