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Where's Maury Povich when you really need him?

I too, remember when this document hit the ministry and ripped it apart. I too, lost every last friend I ever had, when I decided to stick around and help rebuild the ministry I felt God had called me to. I also considered those who bailed out during that time "rats", who abandoned Craig at a time I felt he needed our support. Knowing he had NO ONE in the research category, my husband was first at the bat to step in and fill what gaps were left by teaching Greek to The Way Corps. I personally visited Craig in private when he came to Word in Business in Chicago right after Ralph had left. At the time I was not privvy to all the inside information about what had gone wrong. After speaking with him, being assured he was totally repentant of the errors he had made, I was only interested in helping Craig back on to his feet and supporting him in his efforts (which I thought were) to rebuild The Way International. My husband and I began supporting Craig with all the research we could, and fighting for the ministry amongst our people on the field, and with the WC my husband taught. We drew a line in the sand with the people we knew before POP and let them know we were dedicating to rebuilding. During Greek class just prior to the Galatians teaching, my husband drew a line with TWC in support of Martindale. This, when even the in resident WC were divided in their support for him. We cut off all correspondence with lifelong friends and relatives. We built a strong group of believers in NW IN who not only were absolutely wonderful folks, unified in purpose and spirit with each other on the Word, but who were also fiercely loyal to Martindale because WE WERE. But, we began to see things twist and turn around 1993. The God that was being preached became more and more foreign to the one I had originally learned. The research we had sent in was being corrupted. And the things we were currently sending in were not being heard. I challenged the Eve/lesbian baloney that was being tossed around. Found myself on the wrong side of the battle on that one. Not too long after that, research we sent in went unanswered and unused. Soon my husband was told not only was our research no longer wanted, but that we should stop researching altogether. Eventually the entire ministry became so perverse we could not justify our continued involvement. How devastated I was to learn the details of not only what he had done before POP, but what he resumed doing with *gusto* afterward, right under my nose, all the while receiving and utilizing the gifts we offered him in order to help rebuild what we truly believed was a godly ministry. He had to know that had I been aware of what he was doing, that my husband and I would have turned the ministry upside down on him. I see now how he *used* us directly after POP in order to help regain his position of power with TWC and the people on the field. He used our research, and he used our loyalty, and our leadership. And when he was again secure, he no longer *needed* our support. Martindale wanted to go *unchallenged* in what he did with the doctrine. He effectively began eliminating anyone who would question what he was doing, and who could work the languages better than he could. He also had to know I would never buy into his *lifestyle* so we were only allowed so close and that was it. And when he saw I would not buy every party line that came down the pike, he saw that he could no longer trust our leadership. Martindale *betrayed* every single person who stayed with him after POP. We gave him the second chance he so desperately wanted and he blew it badly. And those who so supported him, who were loyal to him, who wanted to help rebuild the ministry, he gutstripped them and left them for dead. Craig, I want you to know.... WE ARE NOT DEAD I also want you to know..... WE WILL NOT GO AWAY And know this....WE REFUSE TO BE SILENCED There are those of us out here, who KNOW YOU, And are committed to TELL ALL THAT WE KNOW.

Mike derails every thread. He doesn't want to look at what is being posted and consider it in a non-PFAL way. He wants to "teach" us what he thinks we've "forgotten." By derailing every thread, Mike wants us to look at him. Ergo, Mike wants us to become mini-Mikes. Not even sure he wants us to look at VPW's books, since Mike himself claims to have discovered stuff that Wierwille hasn't (=didn't manage to plagiarise). ======= This seems a better option. Heb 12:2 - Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith... Which brings us back neatly to the "absent Christ" - how, please, can we fix our eyes on something that's absent, that's not there?

Maybe it’s one of those 6-of-1-half-a-dozen-of-the-other things According to the main forum page: About The Way Ask the Greasespot Cafe About the Way in Europe Discussion about The Way International and its leadership ~ ~ ~ Matters of Faith Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith Non-Christian Faith in practice: reflections on how we practice what we preach and live what we believe. ~ ~ ~ ~ Now look at OldSkool’s starter post: First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. Damnable heresy all the way here. It would be worded better if they just told the truth: The way ministry takes the place of the real Jesus Christ. That holds true across the board for people in the way international. The directors act as the head of the body. The way ministry is considered by the way ministry "the functioning body of Christ"...the way corps stand in the gap....the only gap I have ever known about was the one that was put between God and his people by the sin nature. The real Jesus Christ stands in that gap as the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus Christ died for our sins...not the way international. I could keep going....does anyone have any idea whatsoever where this awful doctrine originated? I have never heard it outside the way ministry. Was this VPW's brainchild? To me this is a very anti-Christ doctrine. Nowhere is Christ ever called absent and nowhere is he replaced by anything. He has all the preeminance. Period. Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone and no other foundation can no man lay. ~ ~ ~ ~ Personally, I think this should stay in About The Way forum – because it gets into the doctrinal & practical shenanigans... and the consequences of The Way International’s leadership – especially wierwille. But that’s just me…I’m not a moderator …besides I tend to think if you move this to doctrinal some big-wierwille-fans will avoid it like the plague cuz who goes there anyway - except to discuss ideas, theology, atheism, and other thoughtful matters. And we know when one does go there the if-you-give-a-mouse-a-cookie principle will happen – one thing leads to another - if one forwards an idea or argues against an idea one should have to back it up with some logic and evidential support – and hopefully they’ll offer more than regurgitated PFAL nonsense we see pushed in About The Way forum.

Some of us look at Jesus Christ and his accomplishments. Some of us also look at our magnificent God and his wonderful works. Some of us read various versions of the Bible to try to get a fuller picture and understanding. Some of us study other people's theological thinking, and then check that out. Some of us look at the Christ in our Christian brothers and sisters, and endeavour to learn from them, too. But... Some look at thieves, bullies, and corrupt individuals. Some are still stuck in a rut that has ever deepening sides, such that the bigger picture gets smaller and smaller.

Before anyone gets so self-absorbed that they can’t see the light at the end of Uranus – I’d like to point out another insurrection attempt on this thread. Guess the old has-the-idiom-of-permission-been discussed -on-Grease-Spot ploy didn’t work that well…if at first you don’t derail, try and try again. Now…that being said, I would like to offer an invite to another thread in doctrinal – where theological musings on the Trinity and wierwille’s book JCING would be most appropriate…Here’s the thread The Trinity - asset or liability? I’ll dispense with the formalities and skip right to the I triple-dog-dare you MIKE to participate in the Trinity – asset or liability? thread discussion in doctrinal so you can expound on the details of “I had in my research found a few more points of proof beyond what was in that book. He also had some points that I missed.” I’m looking forward to that! You probably should catch up on the approximately 66 posts I did on that thread - most of which I must confess have a lot of substance, logic, references to Scripture and legitimate scholarly works …at least a lot more than what the thread starter had – and that includes his reference to the Omen films You’ll probably want to review the whole thread – but to show you where I just started to get warmed up, you can look here . Hey, for good measure – I’ll do a cross reference invite – so you’ll see me quoting your post from here on that doctrinal thread. See ya real soon wow wee wow – check this out - here - it's like a wheel within a wheel

And there are lots of things that a blinded mind hates. Truth, for one.

So why confine your reading to, basically, one discredited man? And not study the works of a number of reputable theologians, authors, etc. T-Bone recommends some very good sources. And he always references his sources.

Jerry Springer takes the place of the absent Maury Povich.

It most definately is not and I started the thread.

Somewhere along the way..... I remember hearing an old preacher say, "True Christianity has no religion in it." Religion is all man-made wherein authoritarian rulers set up their own hierarchies, mandates and judgments over others. Mark 8:15 And he [Jesus] charged them [his disciples], Take heed, beware of the leaven [doctrines / bureaucracy] of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. After 20-25 years of corps graduates..... The Way International mandated their corps grads to be involved and confrontational over those "under them." Seemed like every year the modern-day Pharisees ratcheted up more intimidation and pressure to 1) witness and 2) abs. This *manufactured spiritual bureaucracy* was similar to that of a shake down.

Board of D...kinda sounds like a link you instantly regret clicking on.

I have an ulterioir motive for posting these as well. It is a good resource to reference the crazy stuff that wierwille said during his live presentations as well as old, un-edited/sanitized versions of his writings. With all the effort the way international has put into whitewashing vics publications and such, they really don't want people to have access to his unsanitized works, be it an old STS or U of L or whatever. They do not present the real version of VPW but their sanitized, edited version. Therefore, having public access to some of the crazy stuff he used to say and also access to plagaraized materials because they have "cleaned up" his stolen goods....anywho. L8rs.

You know with the Way I actually think the practice is worse than the doctrine. The DVD play button takes the place of the absent Christ.

When I was with wierwille on his motor coach in May 1981, he stopped reading my deprogramming account, paused and directly fixated his gaze upon me, and said............. "Your parents will be dead in 5 years for having done this to you." Imagine how that jolted me. For nearly 17 years, I had been indoctrinated into believing that Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille walked with God and was "the man of God" for this day and time. He received revelation from God.......and, he was the man who could "reach up into Daddy's cookie jar" anytime, anywhere. Throughout the corps indoctrination program, our corps coordinators emphasized and demanded strict adherence and obedience to leadership. Wierwille was the "ultimate leader" of the cult........and, in May 1981, I was in his private motor coach and he was uttering a prophecy of the death of my parents. So.........I counted down the years. Throughout these years, I had NO contact with my parents......except to send them an announcement of my marriage to my bride. I did not invite them to our wedding. I knew that was not within the realm of possibility for them to accept.......and come sit in the BRC at our wedding. So, obviously..........our relationship became estranged, and cold, and distant. Yet, each year......I reflected on wierwille's "prophecy" and thought, ".....Is this going to be the year of their deaths? How will they die? Will it be significant or "biblical in nature".......so that I can see the judgment of the Lord on their actions? And, I at times, pondered..........."What if this was a false prophecy and wierwille was just speaking presumptuously?" God forbid that I harbor a dissenting view of wierwille's prophecy and doubt that it would come to pass. THAT would make wierwille a false prophet. The years passed quickly..........and four years later, in May 1985........wierwille was DEAD. Still, I waited..........waiting for year number 5. May 1986 came and went...........and my parents were STILL alive. Five years had passed and the prophecy did not come to pass. Now what? Should I give "this prophecy" a little wiggle room and wait till the end of the year? Maybe, just maybe.......wierwille was "off by only a little." No. Wierwille said, "Your parents will be dead in 5 years for having done this to you." These words were burned into my conscience, because wierwille had spoken them directly to me. After years of studying scripture and going thru corps training, prophecy was something that was absolute and the markings of the holy spirit in action. Many believed that wierwille had the gift ministries (plural)......teacher, prophet AND apostle. Yet, are we not to take the Deuteronomy record into account that IF the prophet's words do not come to pass, then he has spoken presumptuously.......and be NOT afraid of him. Now what? This was May of 1986. And, three months later, Geer takes the stage at Corps Week and reads "The Passing of a Patriarch." Patriarch? Was wierwille our "Father in the Word?" Was wierwille our father in this cult? And, Geer said that we'd forsaken wierwille and needed to get back to the Word that he had taught us. Questions and more swirling questions. Who you gonna believe? Men who speak great swelling words of vanity or your own eyes (and ears)? As of that May 1981 "prophecy".............my Dad lived another 27 years. As of that May 1981 "prophecy".............my Mom lived another 34 years. .