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Well what you do is very similar to what the Way leadership does. Refuse to talk about anything that could possibly reflect badly on Gods chosen ministry. Whitewash. It’s a beautiful thing. See? You only have to look at the white surface? Who cares what is under that coat? God does. That is why God inspires people to speak things that you consider negative. Maybe if it bothers you that much you should take it up with the One inspiring us.

Sorry to break this to you - Christianity is a sin focused movement. The entire book of Romans centers around sin (not only Romans either). It explains the law was given to convict sin. From a literary stand point the book of Romans starts with an outer section that deals with sins people commit (addresses gentiles and Israel seperately and in turn) and moves into an innersection that deals with the corrupted nature of mankind called the sin nature in all of it's ugliness. The entire old testament law, aka Mosaic law, aka The Torah was given to convict sin and bring people to Christ. Then we are taken into the new birth and walking in the spirit, the new creation, the new man that nullifies the sin nature when people press into the spirit instead of the flesh. The problem you are having is you are blinded by wierwille, a man who rationalized his sin and hid them while letting his lusts run wild, posing as a man of God....P.T. Barnum style....greatest man of God since Jesus Christ who pulled the greatest doctrines together since the first century from God almighty. Christianity is sin focused and offers the final solution - the real Jesus Christ - not the absent one.

Something I think a lot of big wierwille fans miss is the disparity of wierwille’s claim and supposed ministry of teaching “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the 1st century and the actual beginnings of Christianity. 1st century church had NO KJV Bibles, most NT docs weren’t even compiled till toward the end of the 1st century. What they DID HAVE was the Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the church and His apostles to oversee in an official capacity the work of Christ’s church. From what we gather in reading the NT is that Christ and His apostles ran a really tight ship. Now let’s zip back to wierwille and way-world. He ran a supposedly Biblical research teaching and fellowship ministry. We’ve got printed Bibles - entire OT and NT in one book - in many translations and versions - and all kinds of Biblical resources in book and on computer. But you know what wierwille missed? He didn’t PRACTICE what he preached. He was a supreme hypocrite, a thief a liar a plagiarist a sexual predator and as head of TWI he was a law unto himself. Know what else he missed? That Christ is LORD and head of His church.

Here's what Mike's doing:

It's late, my eyes are blurry, and probably my contact lenses need cleaning. I misread the above post at first glance. I misread "showing" for "snowing." Which seems to fit the context in more than one way.

Understood OldSkool I enjoyed that interview…and I agree with you on KJV vs other versions should be another thread in my previous post I was just bolstering the idea that we don’t need wierwille’s crystal-eyeball to peer into the otherwise unfathomable mind of God to tell us what He originally meant. I hold to the limited inspiration theory of how the Scriptures were inspired and believe textual criticism along with competent and honest hermeneutics are satisfactory for understanding the basic tenets of Christianity. I’ll leave the hidden messages and secret knowledge to the fans of Gnosticism.

Excellent post OldSkool ! Thanks for that link on the article Why Read the Bible in the King James Version? by Lana Vrz. Great article stating some solid reasons! I usually read NIV and NLT the most – but one of the reasons I often go back to KJV and NASB when doing deeper study is because some of my resources are keyed to KJV or NASB. And probably another reason is just out of an old habit. For 12 years in TWI, I read KJV. Even memorized a few of my favorite chapters. The upside of loving KJV is it comes in handy during a discussion – because it’s easy for me to retrieve a word, phrase, or passage from memory – even if I can’t remember the chapter and verse...and sometimes it's just the odd King Jimmy phraseology that makes it so easy to recall – then I just get on the internet and type in “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” and I find that it’s in Matthew 28 - man, I’m a walking talking fuzzy memory concordance baby!

[It either "seems so obvious" or "is absolutely amazing" or "ridiculous", depending on your level of understanding, from profound to shallow.]

(Please deal with the material the link leads to and I will quote a little here -- no logic fallacies please) https://www.kjvtoday.com/read-bible-in-king-james-version/ But we should take wierwille's word that the Bible is unreliable without his so called Biblical research?

Mike: "Yes, I'd like to see the context of any quotes you have of me saying REPLACE." [See, this is what I was talking about. We've been down this road before. This is playing those silly-@$$ games we don't respect. I don't remember you using the exact word "replace." (You may have, but I didn't note it.) What you DID do is use the CONCEPT "replace" quite clearly. You said the Bibles we had were "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants." You said that God Almighty had to reissue His Word as pfal because there was no chance to get to the original by reading the modern Bibles. This was especially egregious because at least 2 posters (I was the 2nd) were able to quote, directly from the Orange Book, how that contradicted the Orange Book. vpw had specified techniques and said these were what WE were to use, and that, once WE had done this, we could say, "Thus saith the LORD." At the time, I was at least a bit shocked that you responded at least once to that by saying that this was how vpw did so, but WE were not able to do so, that WE were not supposed to try to do so, and that if WE tried, we wouldn't get that result. You referred to the Bible as "not God-breathed" and the pfal books as "God-breathed." Now, either you remember all that, or you don't. Either you meant all that, or you didn't. If your usage of "replace" is meant to say that you didn't MEAN "replace" because you evaded usage of that exact word despite expressing that concept pretty clearly, then you should already know what we all think of that without me telling you. ] --------------------------------- Mike: "Last night you didn't get it when I was joking with you, so I had to tell you it was a joke. And then when I get serious and more open (vulnerable? Rocky?) and you think I'm joking." ============ WordWolf: [You're wrong twice. I don't buy your claim you were joking, and. again, your credibility is at a low. As for now, I didn't say you were "joking." When you change the word of WordWolf, you no longer have the word of WordWolf. You're actually pulling the "I didn't use the word "replace", so I never used the concept "replace", and if I did, it obviously was either a joke or taken out of context, so that's all your fault for misreading me." We understood what you posted just fine. I don't have any problem with you changing your positions. Frankly, I was hoping that, over the years, you'd abandoned that previous doctrine of pfal being a new Bible that supplanted the old, and gave you a chance to let everyone know. This "I never held that position" thing is wildly dishonest. If you really want a shred of credibility here, you really have to cut that out. The worst part, is that I think you really think you never posted that- which means that your memory process is really, really prone to radical editing. It doesn't affect the rest of us, but that's not useful to you. I'm sure it LOOKS like an advantage to forever convince yourself you've never been corrected or lost an argument, or held an error-filled position then reversed it, but, really, that only works in your head and, again, causes conflict once you leave it. It was never about YOU- although you've often (and inconsistently) maintained it was. People called you on blatantly-wrong doctrine. This "I'm never wrong, I'm misquoted or joking" thing flies in politics, but we don't do politics here.]

Something I’ve noticed with fundamentalism is their myopic assumption that the transcendence and immanence of Christ are two distinct experiences/attributes which are separated by time. We read in Acts Christ ascended into heaven…we read that He’s seated at the right hand of God. We read he will return someday…Yet Christ also said I am with you always and in Mark it says the Lord worked with them confirming their message…we read He is head of the Chruch. I think wierwille’s fundamentalist tendences put limits on God…From page 19 of Lifelines: Quotations of Victor Paul wierwille, the believer’s fear binds the omnipotence of God… ...he had the same damn attitude about Christ…I think wierwille promoted the absent Christ as a way to "eliminate the competition" – cuz you need wierwille’s skewed interpretation – “The Word” to take his place…I can almost hear he’s argument “Because logically class, Jesus Christ can’t be in two places at the same time.” Now addressing wierwille fans: At the risk of stating the obvious – no one is holding a gun to your head and making you stay inside wierwille’s cramped theological box…try thinking outside the box. Consider the transcendence and immanence of Christ. He might be absent from your thoughts, teachings, and decision-making but that does not cancel the reality that Christ is an ever-present Lord working with His Church.

And for further needed corrections…we are rescued from the dominion of sin…as my previous post shows – we are no longer under sin’s dominion. We have a new Lord…in Romans 8 we are challenged to walk in the lifestyle of Christ Jesus in order to put to death sinful behavior. Pursuant to that challenge means a constant vigil of our behavior. Any bad behavior that crops up - or is exposed - needs our immediate focus in order to deal with it properly (according to Rom. 8). It has come to my attention that some may misinterpret the following Philippians passage to mean we can procrastinate or kid ourselves into thinking we’re overcoming any bad behavior by NOT thinking about the bad behavior…read the passage again – I understand these noble attitudes should always be running in the background of our thoughts – like standing orders – that gives impetus to our “war” efforts – we are in a constant battle against sin - both within and without (that is what Romans 6 & 7 teach): 8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. Philippians 4 NIV

I agree that all this logic is supporting the false doctrine of a portion of the body of Christ being designated with OT titles and ignoring the rest of the body. Remnant - I mean being a half used up fabric that is not yet discarded? Is that the NT imagery Jesus taught? Or is it more Way bondage? Maybe there is functional truth in how to move ahead when a leadership group is off their rockers like Jerusalem was at the time. Paul kept sending them money in 2 Tim right? No he did not. But I can see why Craig identifies so much with the figure of speech the remnant.

It may not be the *golden parachutes and paychecks* scenario of leaving the corporate landscape with stock options, severance package, pension enhancements, 401K, perks and benefits......but starting up a splinter group has great potential for a lane to run in. If the splinter guy develops a series of teachings (a class)..... then it provides the rails to move information. There seems to be an endless supply of hirelings out there who operate out of a "storefront church in a strip mall." The gullible public have lost their critical thinking skills. Add charisma and the entertainment factor in the mix and people will come. Oftentimes, the ex-twi "believers" unknowingly have a subservient mindset that has been grooved over the decades. Once leaving twi, they seek other leadership to help them navigate thru life. The cycle repeats itself. Classes. Cults. Carry on. For the new splinter leader.....win/win. He gets adulation coming to his front door. Travel. Perks. Privilege. He is simply following the prototype that wierwille set when he, vpw, started up his group. When wierwille stepped away from the denominational church, he too was doing some math. On page 228 of Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, victor writes a letter on November 5, 1958 to his start-up following. In this letter, two paragraphs stand out. 1) "Thanksgiving is on Thursday, November 27th. I will be back for Thanksgiving and I was wondering if you would like to have a special Thanksgiving Service that night at Headquarters?" 2) Next paragraph: "If I could get another 6 families interested in our local group meetings who would join with us week after week in fellowship as well as the giving of their tithes for this work and ministry we would have a greater group than we have even now. Although I sure thank God for your faithfulness and you know I have to teach whenever and wherever God opens doors. Some weeks and months our people are gone a great deal, but I know I do, and others do the same, even when we are out teaching we arrange for our tithe to be in every Sunday night." ############## "The class money pays the overhead expenses......the faithful tithing/abs is the mother lode." Do the math......10% of income really adds up!! What if splinter group reaches 300 adults who faithfully tithe... 100 couples and 100 adult singles = 300 people Average in high incomes/low incomes.....ballpark averages Average annual income of couples (together) = $80,000 resulting in $8,000 tithe per couple $8,000 per couple each year X 100 couples = $800,000 per year If adult single average annual income = $40,000 results in $4,000 tithe per single $4,000 per single each year X 100 singles = $400,000 per year TOTAL: $800,000 + $400,000 = $1,200,000 per year tithe total [300 people]

[Whenever someone asks the same of you, you refuse, usually with many words to obfucate that you're refusing. (Like a long post that takes a long time to write, that explains you don't have time.) My post you quoted was on the preceding page. You're a big boy, you can go back a page like everybody else. Seriously, I'm not sure if the laziness or the double-standard is more obnoxious. ]

So when you're confronted with the ministry philosophy you claim to enspouse, you get cheesed off and turn into the incredible hulk, huh? I see you think it's okay for you to reprove others, but heaven help those that reprove you. A better term? How about: "I'll make the effort*?

The doctrine of the absent Christ is one hundred percent horse puckey centered around Jesus telling his followers they would do works like he did and greater. So the Way has never ever ever duplicated any of the works of Christ despite VP making up stories about trains that match withered hand records of Jesus. The greater works they say is pressing a DVD player button and watch people being herded into public SIT at the end of a class. While they stack chairs. All I got to say is some of us are gonna be way more surprised when Jesus returns than others.

I disagree with your whole frame of positives and negatives as it frames any conversation around biblical truth with your distortion of how the truth receives PFAL or not. I do not believe that you give any other view than your PFAL colored glasses ample time to hear or process because a decade later and your logic has not progressed beyond that same avoidance of any conversation about VP that might be unpleasant. But you keep repeating some opinion about you correcting my error? There is no error. There is just logic I present that challenges your statements so you ignore it and make up false stories about what you are doing in your mind.

Don't forget being the rescuer. That's the third leg of the drama triangle. If you're one, you're probably all three.

It is preposterous to draw parallels of TWI with the Corinthian church. Paul addressed their lackadaisical attitude toward sin - it seems they were even proud of the fact that they were not being judgmental of sexual scandals known in the church. Paul was very emphatic that a little leaven affects the whole lump! There was and still is a double standard in TWI. To the general TWI public it’s along the lines of “walk in the light and make no allowances for the flesh…walk an upright morally sound life.” … YET upper leadership - from founding president wierwille on down - they sexually preyed on women , WITH IMPUNITY !!!! The big distinction in comparing the situation of Corinth with TWI is that - in TWI one can see what happens when the moral demands of Christ are flagrantly ignored and persistent sin is like leaven that ultimately has consequences for the whole group.

Extra cash? Heck, I'm thankful to not be homeless.