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James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. comes to mind....

In the summer of 1973.... my high school classmate encouraged me to visit a local missionary pastor who often flew to Central America for his outreach missions. My classmate was an avid church-goer and I was not. We had several, deep conversations about Jesus as Lord and he felt compelled to help me before he left for the Navy. Little did I realize what was in store for me. Upon arrival at his home, there were only four of us in attendance and this missionary pastor wasted no time before he delved right into the Scriptures. Romans 10:9,10 [the new birth] was his starting point. From there, he handled aspects of sins and shortcomings and one's old man nature. Another 15 minutes of verses.... all of which would cast the central theme of all Scripture upon Jesus Christ, lord, savior and mediator. Then he asked me if I would confess Jesus as Lord Jesus to receive the new birth. Timidly, I spoke out loud and confessed him as lord. At this point, he stood, approached me and laid hands on me. After ministering the new birth and the other two guys praying.... I "felt" this rush of energy/power from the crown of my head to the tips of my toes. To me, I took this experience as the in-filling of holy spirit. Days later, my friend left for the Navy and soon I headed off to college. So, for me.... I was born again BEFORE ever hearing about twi or pfal. I never credited twi with leading me to the new birth; I credited my classmate and this missionary pastor. Had I gotten more scriptural understanding before leaving my home town.... perhaps, I never would have been susceptible to twi's hucksters. Who knows? I do know that God has had His hand on my life before AND after twi. No doubt or guilt of this has crossed my mind. Perhaps, that's why when the scales fell from my eyes.... there was no doubt I was released from twi's bondage.

Deep into the first video and looking forward to getting into the one on JWs. As a survivor of both groups, I'm really having fun with it.

The entire comment posted above (not just my quote thereof) synthesized and concisely encapsules the (brainwashing) process in the mind of a TWI follower. From wordnik dot com: [brainwashing is] "The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion [i.e. The Word of God is the Will of God; a 12 session class with forced NON-questioning obedience; ROA yearly "music festival"; annual WOW outreach program; four-year Way Corps "training"/indoctrination program ostensibly to teach spiritual growth and leadership skills etc.], in order to develop a specific belief or motivation [and a fully committed cadre of "leaders."] In The Road Less Traveled, M. Scott Peck described and teaches a reader to reflect on her/his own road as a way to practice self-therapy. Our brother Skyrider demonstrated exactly that in his comment above. Critics, initially most prominently from other religious traditions within Christianity, labeled the brainwashing and sometimes described it but rarely examined its mechanisms in the exquisite detail as has been done in the thousands of posts/comments on GSC. This thread feels to me like a breakthrough synthesis for understanding Wierwille's intended subculture (cult) and its successors/spinoffs. Is it necessary to identify Wierwille's initial motivation as godly or not? IMO, not. It IS possible, however, to discern by its (and his) fruits. Realization in a person's life may become problematic. Recognition may challenge such persons' sense of belonging or identity (sense of self). For me, this journey began with the 1986-7 (mass?) exodus from twi as a result of letter signed by several former twi leaders. My next step was to continue home fellowship around the same teachings, followed in the early 1990s when I first read M. Scott Peck's books. Eventually, life interrupted the home bible fellowships because they had been decades of the same, ultimately boring, routine. Over the following three decades, I have read hundreds of books as I embraced the message in the first 5 verses of Proverbs 2. if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Among the things I found, psychological understanding is consistent with knowledge of God, even when I find it outside the bible. Anyway, I digress (hopefully to avoid boring you). I'll echo skyrider's close: Peace to all.

Im not sure too much of anything is entirely accurate. The video I shared is one in a long list of sources Im working on the topic. If theres no interest to discuss it here, I will likely just keep it pushing and keep my study to myself. I do with most topics anyways. Inaccuracies can be identified and worked further, but the video does provide verifiable sources and such. No I havent checked all the sources yet and many times I do. Cheers! My goal isn't doctrinal perfection or perfection of anysort really. Those are fundamentalist ideals that don't mesh very well with most avenues in life, especially the Bible. I simply try to get a fairly accurate glimpse on a particular topic and keep it moving because I always learn more later on down the line.

I agree. Ive known Bolsh for 23 years or so and we were on staff together in the same cabinet area. He's been treated pretty rough in his upbringing by folks who meant well but were using the TWI approach to child raising..I know I am still figuring out life post TWI and I wasnt raised in that mess thankfully so I had a frame of reference outside the cult. Folks raised in TWI don't have that vantage point so it can be much harder to get it sorted out.

She most definately was and her and donna were using craig as a proxy and pushing through policy when he was prez, such as the no debt policy. I always keep in mind with rosalie that she hated all the changes since martindale was ousted. That would leave a rather long list of changes she would rather have kept in place. Pregnancy policy No debt policy Staff working on a need basis Mandatory STS attendance or else Mandatory noon meal attendance....etc...I think you guys get the point. When she made that statement she left no qualifiers, such as: I cant stand the changes weve had to make since martindale but....X policy caused Y and were better without it...nothing of the sort...just mad she had lost much of her control. People, generally speaking, had no idea how badly she wanted to micromanage. When she was department coordinator of way publications she set a bathroom policy for staff to sign in and out (indicating the time they left and the time they returned) to go use the restroom. She was sick...but they all were....

yeah, applying creative thought is not a bad thing to add to an otherwise analytical type approach...words often .... fail till they can paint a picture using what we already have

Chockfull, you and I have had our differences, and I questioned your logic. But I never doubted your desire to seriously explore the issues we were raising. The kind of trolling that I'm calling out here is of a different class. I already posted a link to the article on SeaLioning, and I stand by it. There is no desire to engage in the conversation or explore the issue. The desire is to derail while appearing to be unbiased and reasonable. But there's nothing reasonable or relevant about invoking the Magna Carta or The Little Engine That Could. Note that every other poster has been able to engage without that quality. OldSkool came close to duplicating it, but he recognized he was off topic and backed off. That's the difference. I've spent a lot of time exploring different methods of trolling so that I can recognize it when it happens. But thank you for your views and I'll be careful not to moderate just because I'm frustrated.

I’m a bit late in this thread but I celebrate with you your choice as to inspiration. I feel that an honest evaluation of faith sources from a fundamentalist view with either lead to the rejection of fundamentalism or the rejection of the Christian story completely. Rather than lecture you on it I will celebrate the strength that a doubting Thomas mentality brings to the table. You help keep it real. In my faith my God would understand your consternation and not hold it against you. Please continue to contribute here and don’t be restricted by your perceived “religion” or lack of it. I enjoy the interaction.

After reading this thread my thoughts are there is a lot of fundamentalism hidden in the thoughts of all those who experienced the PFLAPppy definitions. Im feeling like asking if anyone wants to really intensely debate whether congruent angles in geometry are really congruent or if they just like each other. I also concur that theopneustos is referring to a muse like inspiration rather than another new math from a dead language.

I would propose that fundamentalism is the lie. Humans are not precise machines in many ways. In others we are. Trying to force precision with superstition is the lie. Thus the “canon” of anything inspired is always in question. The Greek language is a little more inclined to geometry and precise math than Hebrew. I tend to view God breathed in that light. It is just meaning “inspired” as opposed to “automated writing”. I do put them all on the same plane. It is just the plane I put them on doesn’t overstep its boundaries with ridiculousness. The “muse” plane or the source of creative inspiration. I feel that spirituality is an individual choice. What you choose to allow to inspire you is entirely your choice. There are many quality human beings on the earth that choose the Quran as their inspiration. The God I worship would reward them according to their virtue as opposed to whether or not they had position in “Gods household”. I feel like in the afterlife there is going to be a lot of servants in the house while there are a lot of sons cleaning stables figuratively. To me any view has to have equity and balance. I view Christianity as a grassroots movement as opposed to an excuse for a building and control of others. ymmv and varying mileage is a good thing.

I believe TWI got the tithing doctrine completely wrong, so I wouldn't spend time getting headaches over it. The key to prosperity is not tithing, it's a bunch of other things including WORK. I did research on this topic and addressed it with them personally, and the answer was "we should tithe to the ministry that represents God." And we know they meant TWI, but, they couldn't answer definitively if it worked inside another religious group, but if it did, it was less effective. And it didn't work for me, so as greasespotters say, it was a bunch of "bull shonta" from the "Bull dangta" text.

Unresolved? No. You miss the mark. Again. It sounds like abuse. It sounds like she has been letting it play out for years. It sounds like she has let it play out long enough. Hence, her fatigue. l can make inferences about her relationship, because what she describes sounds just like my experience. She can't change him. He has to wake up on his own. I hope she has a support system outside of her marriage and the cult. I hope she has the courage to stand up, declare her freedom, and begin the healing process.