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Shucks,Thats why he (vic jr) dont have to work,hes too damn "important" After all,we can lose alotta peons,but not the all important "man o god". As Ham said "he vis no different than us,Mac dad and other old guys he aint your paycheck,God is our sufficency.

The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instead of running and hiding, or just never coming out of the wood work in the first place. Isnt there something about "hiding your light under a bushel". I have sat with Bishops and Archbishops, Higher ups of various denominations and 95% of the ones that I have talked to are straightforward and honest even in regards to the obvious problems that they face. In other words even if I dont agree with them on certain matters at the least they deal with things in an honorable way as part of their 'witness', most of them I have genuine appreciation for....and although I would never use a phrase like "man of God" to describe anyone, some I admire and might consider it if I had no other words available to me. I really dont understand the "we have some great secret that you dont" mentality, or the John Lynn type driveby "buy my book" postings of a few years ago either. Christianity especially the organized kind is hard enough to get my head around under the best of circumstances let alone someone slamming me with "buy my stuff" "Bumper Sticker Christianity" replete with false bravado, secrecy, and an attitude does nothing for me, it holds about as much spiritual appeal as Billy Mays hawking OxyClean or Vince selling ShamWows (absolutely amazing!!! act now!! bring your credit card!!) on 3 AM TV. I'll give him a chance by fercryinoutloud how the heck does he expect to convince anyone of anything with his current stance. He seems like a good kid, Working all these hours I hope that he is saving up for either his years of therapy or his years of alcoholism when it finally dawns on him how they took advantage of him and his naivete. O---and have the damn courage to speak up Saint Vic Jr, Im talking to you, paint your own damn house you lazy weasel

By the time I arrived on the scene, VPW was already being referred to as the (not a) MOG and the MOGOTW. How did this designation come about? When and how did he transcend being a preacher? At the time I thought it leaned towards hyperbole, but a LOT of people in TWI seemed to think it was true.

Greetings all, Here is something I think I'm seeing. I would appreciate any feedback. Points to Ponder Jesus Christ is very active. God has given him to be the head over ALL things to the church, which is his body. As a member in particular in the Body of Christ, you don’t have your own individual spirit while I have mine. There is only one spirit. It came on the day of Pentecost when the church was baptized in Holy Spirit. No one is baptized in Holy Spirit after that. Now, as members in particular in the Body of Christ, we have access through that one spirit that was promised of the Father to the followers of Christ. Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph. 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling... The faith of Jesus Christ doesn’t give us the ability to believe like Jesus Christ did believe. It gives us the ability to believe like Jesus Christ IS believing. We have no right to put that in the past tense. Jesus Christ is heading up all things in his body. We get to believe THAT way. On the day of Pentecost, Peter said, “being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he [Jesus Christ] hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. “This” was the speaking in tongues the wonderful works of God that the people were “now” hearing, NOT the promise of the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ was now shedding forth what the people were hearing and seeing Peter and the other apostles say. THAT’S what gave the previously fearful apostles boldness – the MAN is BACK people. He is HERE NOW. He is shedding forth this. The apostles were walking in the faith of Jesus Christ who was literally heading up the show. “The name of Jesus Christ” is meant to be more than a tag line put on the end of our prayers. The apostles knew that they were speaking for Jesus Christ, not in some general power of attorney way where I can do what I want in his name. It is not about me. God has no respect for that. It is about Jesus Christ. Peter said unto him, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ makes you whole.” Jesus Christ made him whole. Peter got to participate in the faith of Jesus Christ. It’s not about me operating my holy spirit. That puts the emphasis on me again. That was the fault in Cain’s sacrifice. God has no respect for that kind of sacrifice. All the sacrifices God had respect for throughout the OT, God sent fire from heaven to burn up the sacrifice all the way to ashes. If it depends on me operating the spirit, it is as weak as my flesh in which dwells no good thing. We all have access to God through Jesus Christ as he heads up all things that have to do with his body by one spirit according to his faith. We get to walk in his faith. It is all about him. In my ability to operate holy spirit, I have weakness. By Jesus Christ’s faith, I have boldness and access with confidence in Jesus Christ. There is only one faith. If the faith of Jesus Christ was my ability to believe the way Jesus Christ DID, then, as you believe the way he DID, & I believe the way he DID, there would be two faiths, and again, it would be all about you & me. In that Ephesians 3:12 In whom [Jesus Christ] we have boldness [NOW] and access [NOW] with confidence [NOW] by the faith of him [the faith he has NOW as he heads up EVERYTHING that has to do with his body]. There is one faith and it’s his [NOW], & we get to participate in it. Now, in THAT, we have boldness. Then, when we speak in tongues, it’s like the fire from heaven burning everything to ashes – there is no fear, there is no doubt, there is no flesh, there’s rivers of living water being given to us by Jesus Christ, flowing out of our bellies. How about a little poetry from the Master about Oneness? Ephesians 4:1-6: I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It is interesting that the thing we are most concerned with is that our drive by poster does not fall prey to the same evil that we all did. Our biggest concern is that he not waste any of his life.. and we are asking for answers to questions that would point out the facts that that is exactly what SOWERS is. I wonder if He has been on line with out posting but has read what has been written her. I wonder if it has added to his own doubts and question. Obviously he has them.. and obviously his parents are involved in this new variation of TWI so maybe he can not really feel free to say what he think Or maybe as some one else mentioned maybe it is just that he was sent here as part of his mission. Oh I have to come back in a bit to write more Hugs to you all Caleb if you read this maybe you can PM some of the posters. For privacy

On e thing,The old guys,know he is a wet nosed kid,They are using him,Question is?Why> Ole mac cant do it on his own?Dad?Pushing the name recognition,as if the kid needs that, "He only yelled once,to get someones attention"yep,it always starts out small. "He is humble>Ok doesnt sound like it to me. "he knows his suff"Even granddad knew better,he was at least37 before he taught pfal I know old guys use a kid to get other kids,old guys to you box his ears in private? Or did you get sucked into the man ogod crap?

Out of the mouth of one of your "babes".. I may not have been there for the "training".. but I certainly can observe BEHAVIOR. Do you observe anything you remotely consider "troubling"? As soon as you open the starting gate.. what are his first words.. words of praise, praising a YOUNG INEXPERIENCED KID. He's your emissary, out singing the praises of vic II. There is no God in this.. here we have a newest recruit praising the virtues of a MAN.. a boy, at that.. "he is agreat man of God".. there is no question in this kid's head.. as regards to vic II.. in my opinion, you have created a monster..

Wow. What an answer.

Just like his at bats and fielding now----you hardly knows he's there EDIT: as if on cue I went to the sports page after posting this and found Julio has been given his walking papers--DFA'd, cut, fired--however you want to put it...he's lookin for a new job today Adios Julio

I was polite to the kid and even went to bat for him on the first few pages, I see now that most of everyone else had the right idea all along.--nothings changed, its the same sold sh!t--even when given the opportunity The top dogs of the offshoots are scared to death that they will be exposed for what they are here, so stay behind their facades and illusions instead of having an honest one on one conversation like anyone else that you have to deal with..... Calebs comment about "being covered in cow crap" was truer than he knows

Interesting and predictable. Yup. A young buck from a cult-spinoff slides into the forum sideways and starts yammering about the great new fellowship/class/sign-here sorta thing he's into. He's full of the latest-n-greatest of RFAL (Revised For Abundant Living.) Right in the middle of a big ol' forum of ex-wayfers. Yup. Bold. I guess. He makes you want to like him and he says some funny country-hic things that are a hoot. I get a mind picture of a big ol' corn-fed Iowa boy at a computer, pecking away at a keyboard with his calloused fingers. Sorta cute. But as you read his posts, you know there's a hook in those posts he's putting on the forum. He's fishing for something'. And the little rules in post #1 - waz that all about? Nope, he wasn't here to bash anyone but.... somehow he's got something wayyyyy better and boy, you'd better not have anything to say in disagreement unless you experienced it first hand. Um... yeah. Okay. Whatever. We've never heard THAT before. <_<

and we're surprised because...

The irony. . . . . . if you could SIT... blah, blah... Your proof in the senses world...(BUT we weren't supposed to be deceived by our 5 senses!) I missed that one! SIT was(IMHO) a crock of S IT. And. . . . it was never really about trying to be good. . . although we were "The Best" . . . . and I know because people used to tell me so ALL the time. Accountability is what I learned AFTER TWI. When I didn't have someone always telling me I was God's elite, super special believer with all the power and actually doing Him the favor. It is a wonder God ever made it without us. . . Oh that's right. . . he didn't. . . he was lost until it snowed on gas pumps. Duh. . . . silly me. I wonder if SOWERS has picked up the slack we cop-outs left?

Not in person for many (10+ ) years. No bumper stickers for about as long. I do see some on web sites like Facebook, MySpace, etc. Good to know that the internet is now blessed by WayVille. Anyone know when being online was no longer instant possession? Just curious. Weirdest encounter with an ex-wayfer? A guy at an airport with his kids wearing a really old WOW jacket. I asked if he was with the Way and he said "no." No explanation. "Were you ever a WOW?" "Yep." Man of many words.... Dumb me HAD to ask why he still wore the jacket then. His answer? "Uh, I like the color." JT

I do believe you are onto something Oh Great Squirrel. I'd like to have a go-round with the ones that propped these kids up with false prophecies and visions of glory. It's kind of like a wannabee version of making kids suicide bombers in some respects. At least with suicide bombings the actions themselves that the kids are trained to do are impossible to be anything other than violence against the enemy. But some of these kids actually are being taught to think that the bullying is some form of love. AAARRRGGGHHH! YEAH, I REALLY WOULD PREFER A GO-ROUND WITH THE HIGH MUCKITYMUCKS THAT SET V2P2 on course!

Cool thread Skyrider, It makes plain to me that it is pretty darn hard to hold to the "good things" when TWI leadership has been freakishly persistent in trying to hide or distort the "evil things."

Apparently "The no personal integrity christianity because I dont have to be and Im better than you anyway " is still the alive and well, at least until we get some indication otherwise. That doctrine always bugged me.. Since SIT as they do it is some proof of ultimate acceptance then even the sense of right and wrong eventually gets wiped out. Grandpa Saint Vic used to talk about "having No sense of sin, guilt or condemnation". Later we found out he had a steady stream of young girls serving him while teaching this...What a crock, what he taught as 'renewed mind" was no more than a "seared conscience".

How many were in that naughty rag tag zero corps? I love that property they have. . . . I own an old farmhouse and some acreage. . . . it is a whole bunch of work. I would love to have some free labor. . . I actually paint my own dang house. Should have started a program. . . but then again. . . . I can't even get my own kids to consistently cut the grass. . .

I don't even know where to begin. Every offshoot/next generation outfit thinks it has the kinks ironed out of what it thought was a good thing gone bad. People tend to defend what they believe is good. Most of the people here did whatever they believed was necessary to defend their system of beliefs back then and even now (to a certain extent). The thing I fear is that this onslaught is going to cause him to become defensive and less willing to share and we will be less informed because of that. I would like to hear what the young man has to say, so I'm asking for people to back off even if you are offended by what he says and how he says it. Or Caleb, if you prefer, we can go private with the discussion. Caleb - what most of us fear is that you've gotten involved in yet another version of what was for many, a very abusive religious organization. The tendency to believe than anything or anyone associated with the Wierwille name, who has not specifically condemned the beliefs and practices, is simply repackaging them. It appears that while your parents left TWI, they still associated with others that still held to the beliefs. There are a number of people here who don't like TWI, but still revere PFAL and all the books - at least prior to LCM. Is that the case with your upbringing? It's the opinion of many here that VPII is probably repackaging his grandfather's "work," which isn't even really his. Since you seem to be aware of what was taught by VPW, could you tell us how or if VPII is more his own person, or if he's following in his grandfather's footsteps?

mine lay (lie? lol) dormant when i'm asleep -- well actually not really -- i dream like a mother :)

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha i'm sowwy. that just got me !!!!!!!

jerk

i wish he was the man i thought he was

Just the idiot who's willing to pay $2500.

Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have stopped the listing of those tapes. I'm leaning towards can't. Now that most people don't care what TWI thinks, threats just don't have the power they used to have.

Interesting, yet naive idea.

I'm sort of saddened that it is being listed as a "Buy Now" or "Make an Offer" option. Three declined offers - no idea what people are offering. Bummer.

I've already supplied the name of the guy near the top. The 3s are e; the 1s are i; and the @ is an a. I did a reverse lookup of the phone number.