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Ya know Skyrider....."to the very end" is a loaded phrase for me because it is so stunningly literal. Vic took his perverted pathological delusions with him to the grave. He put on his last production, his last ROA closing night, as his epitaph to himself. His athletes of the spirit to end it all with his staged "turning my face to the wall to die" routine. THAT's why he could only trust one guy on the whole planet it to be executive producer.....psychogeer. I saw vic the day he came back from Gartmore in May of 1985. Or, I should say, I saw the icteric rotting shell of what was left of him. Met him at the airport, Logan, and was the only one of our small greeting party to go onto the coach, which Geer was now back in charge of, while Peter and Christie Edmond seved as complete human crutches. He had called me onboard because he brought me two six packs of my German grandfather's favorite beer.....Moninger.....as a good-bye gift. All he was, was his paranoid narcissistic delusions smashed on morphine and Drambuie. The creep behind the curtain had been exposed. He turned out to be a wretched gnome of a creature.....Rumpelstilsken-esque....some medieval horror story caricature of a man of gawd. He was only his delusions now. No attachment to anything resembling reality or remorse. Nope! He was gonna commit suicide for God for all to see that Vic was the only true head of twit 4EVER, and the ONLY real mog of the 20th century, the last Paul of Tarsus. The greatest "teaching prophet" since Paul, and the only great king since David, "a man after god's own heart". You, my surrogates are to blame. YOU forced me to do this! YOU, in effect, killed me and my ministry! Vic was the one who destroyed twi. If he couldn't have it nobody else could either. There was NEVER an ounce of remorse for the hundreds he had raped and abused. In his fog they were lucky to have been assaulted by him. Everyone who ever knew him was lucky as far as he was concerned. He built it all and now he was taking it with him. There was no guilt. There was no shame. There was no need to repent. He never did anything wrong! It was everybody else's fault. Vic was just a victim. He was living his dreams now. He had become the man he wished to be and he did it his way. Sociopathic, paranoiac narcissist, alcoholic neoNazi sexual predator, racist and misogynist extraordinaire. The mighty man'o'gawd Pauline style. Lying and cheating his way through life and now death. What an utterly detestable fraud.

To some people, he definitely taught wantonness. lcm was willing to follow vpw off a cliff. vpw told him that he'd need to "loosen up sexually" or that he would be unable to minister to God's people. That's just one example. He also set up the elaborate NETWORK. There was a system to FIND the women to victimize, a system to set up the victimization, the system to "exit counsel" the victims, and the system to kick them out and smear their names if they looked like they would talk. vpw put more work into that than he did into actually studying the Bible, since he mostly just faked doing his own research, and he set up his own rape-system from scratch. Funny thing about the lack of remorse to the end (a hallmark of psychopathic/sociopathic behavior)... Someone who was on-grounds in his final hours said that vpw was in bed, and he said, sincerely, that he was trying to figure it out. He knew that God's leaders could get healing if there wasn't some obstruction in their lives, in their behavior, that prevented it. This is what had him stumped. vpw was UNABLE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE HE'D BLOWN IT. A trail of abuse victims behind him, and he was unable to think of a single instance in his life where he'd displeased God. It's possible he was faking it to his literal last breath- but I think he was telling the truth and literally thought God was ok with the rapes vpw did. Either way, he went to his grave UNREPENTANT. If he knew it was wrong, he confessed NOTHING. Possibly the biggest difference between vpw and lcm: vpw KNEW he was conning people. lcm thought he was doing what God wanted-because he bought into vpw's con. So, vpw knew when to hide his tracks, and lcm was proud of what he was doing. Since he really thought vpw heard from God, he really thought he himself would hear from God once he was anointed twi's next king. So, he concluded that many or most fool thoughts he got after that were from God- so he announced them or put them into action, and almost all of them were horrible ideas that damaged twi more each time. lcm meant to serve God, but had been so completely deluded by vpw and bought so completely into the whole act that he was unable to see when he was doing wrong and would displease God.

Hi Shortfuse! No, I do not think da forehead did what he did "intentionally" to destroy twit a la vic. He was just too plain DUMB to plan the religious insanity and blind extremism. The real "hater" of twit on that version of the board of terrorists was Donnie. He hated his old man and he hated the fact that the old man ruined donnie's life by making him an offer he couldn't refuse, VP of twit until death. Donnie became the monster his old man had wanted. He was the one Vic wanted as 2nd prez, not the dumb ape jock from OK. But the whole of twit knew Donnie was as good a front man as Tick. No public speaking prowess at all. About as captivating as a lava rock. As motivational in public speaking as Mitch McConnell on opiates. So.....he made Donnie VP, and found some jerk to be the frontman he wanted because he knew Donnie and Coward would be able to control him while running the money and politics of twit themselves. Da forehead dancing and screwing was good enough for them. Let him THINK he's mog jr. when in effect he's just the public face of the crap we're pulling on everyone in the name of gawd. Vic realized he made a bad choice, but he made it so publicly and grandiosely that there was no way he could undo it. He wanted Donnie in charge, but instead picked the Okie Dope cuz he thought he would totally be under the thumb of Don and coward. But, the dumb jock BELIEVED he was called of gawd. He believed he spoke for gawd and gawd spoke with him, but it was obvious to everybody that the dancing president was a total buffoon intellectually, and interpersonally. Spirits in the Athlete was the final horror that took vic out. He hated it and he hated da forehead for doing it and looking like the dumb ape he was. He was hoping Geer would do the heavy lifting dumping the dancing prez, embarrass Donnie and coward enough to get them in line, and then set up Donnie as prez until Luke Somerville, real Wierwille blood was old enough to take over from Donnie for grampa mog. But, Geer liked being King......another quirk Vic's revelation missed. It turned out that Geer liked being vic and impersonated him quite well. Donnie was always the main target of vic's wrath, not Okie Dope. Don was the one deserving punishment. King Okie was just a tool & they ALL knew it. So, once Donnie got Okie Dope to tell Geer to bug off, he built his old man's Frankenstein through da forehead and destroys his father's family, his siblings and his own mother, along with his father's minus-try. Wanda's married to Coward now, the only Emeritus Trustees of any of them to own their own "root locale" at Gunnison, so that cuts out all the wierwilles from twi. Donna and Rosalie own new Knoxville and Howard and Don got Gunnison. Tidy package of crapola all wrapped and ready for an early xmas. Does that answer your question Shortfuse?

Great post outandabout! I sure understand your handle much better now! TY.

This thread has triggered some memories associated with what was wrong with TWI. People weren't going to stay if they were being made miserable - which I was. I was in I-Hop as a waitress in the city I was currently assigned. I watched a customer leave the restaurant and as I watched him go, I felt a wave on envy. Here was a person going on about the next thing he was going to do and he didn't have a meeting he had to go to, he didn't have to feel like he had to witness wherever he went....and here I was with all this TWI baggage but I was COMMITTED for life! Because I was CORPS!! I was stuck and if I didn't like it, that was was my fault because I wasn't renewing my mind. That feeling of envy was a red flag that something wasn't right, but instead of heeding it, I continued on in my misery. In the same I-Hop, we had signed up another waitress and she took the class. She wouldn't go to Twig, though. She told me it was because we all seemed so wrapped up in meetings and classes and that's all we did and she didn't want to be like that. I couldn't really argue with her since I saw her point. Yet I continued on in my bondage to TWI. Years later, I was married and living elsewhere and my husband and I were running a small twig. At this point I had managed to get a little less involved and I had learned to avoid despotic leaders. Anyway, I was at work, and realized it was a non-Twig evening and I felt a total sense of RELIEF. Another red flag. How were we supposed to be under all this pressure to get people into something that was a drag? Three years after that, in 1988 I was finally able to leave. I could have sooner, but I wouldn't listen to myself because I didn't trust my own self because it had been buried under my Waybrain.

Hi Twinky! Good question. The most accurate definition that I know is the one you ended your post with. That is what apostolos(sp?) most basic meaning is. There are many Churches which have varying understanding and definition of an apostle. Every mainstream Christian denomination has something to say about apostles. There are also many Apostolic churches and ministries here in the US. There is a good sized portion of black folk here who have Apostolic Churches. They all define apostle differently, and most often their definitions reflect their core Christian belief and church tradition or history. There is quite a lot of writing done on this topic so there is quite a lot of muddling through volumes of stuff to find out what the various churches and sects believe. My take? The same as the definition you gave from Bible Dictionary. A Christian Apostle is one sent by Jesus Christ to do The Lord's bidding. Pretty simple. All the stuff about new light, old light, dim light, is all vic's own PI. It was all designed so that if you accepted vic's definitions of the "gift ministries", you would "figure out" that vic made the definitions in a manner where all definitions pointed to vic as a current, biblically defined apostle, prophet and teacher. He never claimed to be an evangelist or pastor, but he sure made it appear as if he had the big three as listed in Corinthians. So if you accepted vic's definitions then you would reflexively accept that vic had at least the big three, and some thought all 5! In the large denominations and many smaller churches there is a common point to their qualifications for apostleship. The doctrine is that in order to be a real Apostle, one had to have seen Jesus, either in person like the original 12, or by revelation as Paul did on the road to Damascus. Some also believe there must be an assigned mission from Jesus that each apostle is called to carry out, thus being sent out by Christ to do His bidding. So again, my take is that a Christian Apostle is a man or woman called by Christ to carry out a specific mission on His behalf, sent out by Christ to do His bidding. That's it for me. I believe God's description of an Apostle is purposely vague so that the carnal mind would not come up with all their own qualifications and definitions, all of which put Christ and His Apostles into a man made box, just like vic did. No limitations, qualifications as far as God's concerned in my book. Far too constrictive and limiting IMO, of both Jesus and His Apostles. What's your take Twinky?

Hi, it's Charlene here, just to say that this account nails the phenomenon. Thank you, DWBH. Just one little change.. The Second Corps men were ordained after one year on the field post graduation. So graduation was '73, ordination was '74. Well, all I can say is: this is a broken record of VPW self-serving rhetoric.

"How did the ordination thing work in twi? page__p__414860#entry414860 "hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point........... when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california. several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970........... steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc. ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic. this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet. the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it! the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72! then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god. this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class". during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there! when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago. this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!. my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA. the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic. it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual. rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................ whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace. "

Thanks Waysider, but I did not get the "game" idea from your post. My post was addressed to MRAP. He said that he during the years 72-77 was "encouraged" to play the "Guess the Gift Ministry game", because they were taught that if they guessed correctly they had proven themselves to be somehow better, or more mature, or spiritually understanding believers. I was there before during and after 72-77, even getting ordained myself in 77. Yet, I never heard of any game like this. Hence my pertinent questions to MRAP. Then MRAP lists his version of the ministries as listed in Ephesians, and includes "preachers" among them. I never heard of that one either. Maybe he meant "pastors"? Either way, he said that "teachers and preachers" were the two most common gift ministries in his long and storied twit experience. There's just a bit too much cognitive dissonance in that post which is not at all helped by the spelling and grammatical errors which make deciphering the meaning of the content more difficult. With all of MRAP's hype on that other thread in the open forum thread regarding the laughable REV produced by Schoenheit and his STFI along with Jalvis and TLTF, demanding that the discussion be moved to the doctrinal threads so that the incredible credibility of Schoenheit's textual research, critical textual translation skills in all dem dere languages can be accurately and thoroughly debated and proven or disproven by everyone except schoenheit himself? Why would any serious student of the Bible and textual criticism ever think to even read that REV? Who were the translators? What are the translation credentials and in which languages? Who were the editors? Who did the critical peer reviews? Who are Schoenheit's and Lynn's "peers"? Nobody in the REAL world of biblical textual criticism, translation, and MSS editing, compilation, selection and determination of authenticity ever heard of these twits. How come their work is so outstanding to you? Is it their spelling? Grammar? Scores of years in biblical academia, MS collection, textual research, textual criticism, expertise in Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, Latin? Those are my questions and reasons for asking them MRAP. I feel a response from you is necessary. TY for your time.

So then MRAP, in your current view, do you believe jalvis, gerry wrenn, walter cummins, chris geer, beence finnegan, michael rood, to name just a scant few are genuinely ordained because they were ordained by vic himself? Do you believe they have "gift ministries" to the Church? What's your "Guess the Gift Ministry" radar telling you about these guys. How about John Schoenheit? Mark Graeser? Who ordained all these guys? What legitimately accredited seminaries did they attend? What training in Ministry, Homiletics, Pastoral Counseling, or Divinity have they had outside of the meaningless halls of twit or their own made up ordination rituals, doctrines, and "future leadership"? Which of the people I listed above was or still is "the real deal" in your opinion? How many twit ordinations did you attend in your brief 5 year stint with twit from 72-77? You state you "now see it was a game but back then, it was a serious observation we were encouraged to make regarding our future leadership - being correct meant you had more spiritual understanding" I was in rez from 73-76, 3 of the 5 years of your involvement, and I never heard of ANYTHING you describe. How so? You also said you have great interest in the TLTF & STFI ministries because of lynn and schoenheit. Especially you mentioned Schoenheit's REV. What convinces you today that these guys and their "ministries" are worthy of the respect you grant them? Neither has ANY ministerial, academic, scholastic or theological credentials outside of twit, or some other phony self-ordained and self -accredited bible outfit. The core of their "accredited credentials" is only what they bought from twit and the meaningless "sheepskins" they threw around to anybody and everybody who came up with enough "tuition, room, and board" to buy one. Does their twit ordination and "education" still hold for them today in your eyes? Or, looking back now is that all still "a game"?