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And so it came to pass that the Lord was unable to bless even the most needful of the lot, for their vegetation had become unruly and tainted with demons.

I debated on which thread to post this - it was a toss-up between the way corps victim…oppressor thread or this one the subtle thread thread /> ….since my post extrapolates on the continuation of this insidious wormlike thread after graduating from PFAL I thought I'd post it here… I assume most new grads of PFAL took the instructions from VP at face value. Speaking for myself, I equated VP saying "you don't go around breaking the 10 commandments" with walking the Word and all the other renewed mind rhetoric in PFAL. I think I was pretty much the Dudley Do-Right type even up to and including my participation in the way corps program. And I believe most of the people I knew in the corps were the same way. But let's say there's a very ambitious PFAL grad and for some unspoken reason is attracted to the power structure of TWI. As time goes on, let's say they enroll in the way corps program (TWI's version of Police Academy – with a variation – a group of incompetent but good-hearted misfits enter a program that has an incompetent evil-hearted moral misfit for an instructor). How thrilling - to sit at the feet of the "police chief" who will reveal the secrets of the double standard. Maybe that same ambitious corps grad was the type who couldn't wait to get their "badge" (way corps name tag) and the rest of the accoutrements of power. You'd see them on patrol in their precinct – turning on the squad car lights to race thru traffic and busy intersections to get to their favorite donut shop; afterward they'd have no qualms about writing one of the fine upstanding citizens they "serve" a ticket for a minor traffic violation. Power corrupts. The absolute truth about the greatest secret in way-world today is that the Power for Abundant Living class corrupts absolutely.

I'm not pretending to know more than I do, I'm simply stating what is written in the Bible......"By their fruits you shall know them." Yes, it could be approached from a doctrinal perspective, examining scripture that relates to the matter. However, Rocky clearly indicated his interest was in understanding where and when, historically, Christianity adopted the said belief. This is the type of question one might find in a secular class comparing various religious beliefs and histories.

It's not a doctrinal question. Rocky posed the question: "From a historical perspective, at what point did some human declare that Jesus is God?" You don't have to have any knowledge of the Bible or particular religious slant to address this from a historical perspective. "It's really that simple."

It isn't necessarily required that one be personally acquainted with someone to see evidence of their true character. It says so in the Bible. Something about knowing them by their fruits or some such thing.

Hi fellow greasespotters! I have been reading with interest the posts on this thread. Many excellent insights and points indicating a diversity of thinking. That freedom to view the Bible as one source of information on the nature of God and Man and examine "it is written" with objective critical thinking and reasonable logic, leads, IMO, to a broader, increased understanding of what the crux of the matter is all about, again IMO, which is: What is the RELATIONSHIP God wants with Humankind? Is there a God Who wants to have relationships with humans? Do humans need or want a relationship with God, or a god, or gods? What is the means and basis of a relationship with God? What are the benefits of humans having a relationship with their God or gods? How is my God identified and how does She/He make her/himself known? Is such relationship available and/or necessary to ALL humans? As WordWolf did above, I now offer my 2 cents regarding the topic of this thread. IMO, vic "wrote" JCING as a pugnacious and unnecessary attack against the large and historically established Christian denominational Churches, particularly with a JBS hatred for the Roman Catholic and Jewish religions, but inclusive off all those "so-called" Christians, as he phrased it, whose denominations were run by "seed-boys" who were direct servants of Satan, who, in the paranoid narcissistic pathology vic lived in, was THE AUTHOR of that "damnable lie" he called The Trinity. He did so because he needed to manufacture a need for his bible products and trinkets among the huge customer base he wanted increased marketshare of, namely the rest of "organized Christianity". That meant he had to come up with a unique product and a unique platform from which to sell it. He chose THE one doctrine common to the vast majority of his competitors and their financial supporters, The Trinity. OOOHHHHHHH! Where angels and wisemen fear to tread! But not that fearless Aryan Supremacist dictor. He wanted those coffers for himself, but he had NOTHING but a bunch of spurious "definitions" from B.G. Leonard and great stuff from Bullinger that poor little dictor's alcohol infused mini-intellect never fully grasped, but fully misinterpreted to suit his purposes for his flagship product, pfal. Ladies and gentlemen! "It slices, it dices, it hacks the Bible to pieces! Ronco's biblical research, teaching and fellowship 'minus-try"! But it keeps those checks and blue forms rolling in! I was in-rez at HQ in 1973-74 in the corpse. That's when the twit "research dept." which consisted of dictor, Falter Cummins, Donna Randall, Bernita Jess and one or two corps grads along with the entire in-rez corpse which consisted of about 100 people. There were numerous JCING research nights, all-day voluntary meetings with the research staff and editorial "staff", to "work da woid" on the subject in order to get the book out. The overall attitude pervading all of this was dictor's rabid JBS hatred for the Catholics and Jews, and his palpable ENVY of their MONEY! The Satan/Seedboy connection provided the villains. He had created his own little fictional playground of the Passion Play complete with the enemies and heroes characters necessary to a hit play. It was his version of "Lord of the Rings" and "Star Wars" and "Guardians of The Galaxy" all rolled into one BRC feature. And of course, ONLY HE had the keys to the kingdoms. dictor had no intellectual capacity to understand Bullinger. He just took what he wanted and changed what he didn't like saying, "Bullinger WOULD have surely come to the same conclusions" dictor himself had come to. SURELY! It took Donna Randall,Peter J. Wade, and Cummins to explain Bullinger to dictor, and then make sense out of dictor's alcohol-infused rants, which were taped and transcribed. Dictor never actually WROTE much at all. All his "original writings" were teaching tapes, transcribed by Donna Randall and edited by his daughter, Karen. Then embellished and fleshed out by PJ Wade, Cummins, and Randall. Wierwille reads THEIR work and puts his name on it and they all feel so proud that dictor "used" their work and approved it by signing it as his own. NO ONE WHO EVER WORKED AT TWIT'S RESEARCH DEPT. WILL DENY THAT THE PROCESS I DESCRIBED ABOVE IS HOW JCING WAS "WRITTEN". NO ONE WHO WAS EVER THERE FOR ANY "BOOKS" OF VIC CAN HONESTLY DISPUTE MY ACCOUNT. As a matter of fact, there are numerous former research staffers out there who will confirm and elaborate upon what i have said here. Some post here! The word on JCING starting hitting the streets right after that 1970 twit summer school. It was all over twit fellowships by 1971, and dictor's trial balloon in 1970 was finding enthusiastic acceptance throughout the now booming fellowships around the US. With a perfect audience too.......disgruntled and disgusted old-time denominational misfits along with the huge surge of hippies just itching for a just cause to enlighten and change the world with, all found common ground in vic's new movie! Dictor thought, "By jove! I think I've gawt eet!". The $ and numbers started rolling in. This new upstart cult had grabbed a hold of something that galvanized the organized mob that twit turned into. Dictor and TWIt thrived on the controversy, in exactly the same manner in which The Trumpstah is thriving in today's political zoo, so he, like Trump, wratcheted up the pugnacious and contemptuous rhetoric earning the status of anti-semitic and dangerous fundamentalist cult from the ADL and the B'NAI B'RITH in 1982, along with becoming one of the most despised cults among the "anti-cult" communities springing up around America in the 1970's. So, with his coffers full of money taken from "Seedboys", and a bellyful of Seagram's and Drambuie, dictor went on his abundant living spree from 1976 until the day he died. Taking the place of the absent christ Who Is THE WORD, replacing it with the word-o-vic-is-the-will-o-vic. Buying multi-million dollar properties and spending millions more "bringing them up to gawd's standards". Motorcoaches, limousines, motorcycles, custom-tailored suits, airplanes, big bucks vacations and twustee hunting and fishing expeditions all over the US and Canada. Drinking and sexually molesting hundreds of innocents until the day he died in May,1985. Rotting from the inside out and buried in his idolatrous watery grave for all to barf on. My personal take on the Trinity? Honestly? Who gives a dang? I sure don't as a Christian by personal choice. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christian Salvation. Nothing! It is completely non-salvific. It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in the type of relationship Jesus Christ or His Father encourages and fosters with ANY human being. It is a superfluous man-made philosophy concerning the nature of God, and attempting to explain that nature. It's as made up as dictor's books, and carries the same weight intellectually IMO. Hardly any layperson in any church knows what it's supposed to mean, and they really could care less. All it is and ever was, is a clever little device invented to garner and expand the political and economic power of a small group of Roman elitists and imperial landowners who were running scared because of the Huns, Goths, Visigoths, Saxon and Norman hordes that were gobbling up the remnants of their crumbling Roman Empire. So, they morphed into The Holy Roman Empire, and continued their land and money grabs until the 7th and 8th centuries, when they eventually destroyed themselves with their Crusades to recapture the "Holy Lands" they lost to Islam and all them Goths.......lol. They used the Trinity in much the same way dictor tried to use JCING. It took quite a bit longer for them to be reduced to one city in Italy than it did for dictor to devour his own cult in less than 20 years. If one starts with a premise which determines that there is a God, Creator, Universal Life Force, which desires and makes available to humans, a substantive, positive, and beneficent relationship with HER/HIM/IT, then one must ask, "Why would that god or goddess want to exclusivise such a beneficial and perhaps necessary relationship with 7 billion human beings and billions of other living creatures on the planet Earth?" IMO, that would be quite "un-Godlike". It seems to me that such a benevolent being would want that benevolence for all living creatures and not just some based on some secret code, or iconoclastic religion. That's why i identify myself as a "Christian by personal choice". I do not believe that Jesus Christ, as I accept him, is indeed, the ONLY "way, the truth, and the life" to or concerning an omnipotent God, or having a "relationship" with HER/HIM/IT. I see my God as able to reach and accept ANY human being who desires to experience and live the "fruit of the Spirit" as listed in Galatians 5:22,23. "AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW", and when one reads those verses in any bible version one can surely see why no "law" against them exists. Therefore, why would anyone want to bar anyone else from such a relationship with that omnipotent, benevolent Being? Why would any human being discount, discredit, despise, or restrict such fruit from anyone else? Only for personal social, political, or economic gain, greed, and envy.....none of which are "fruit" of the Spirit. They are the fruit of corrupted human nature. To me, the complete irrelevance and immateriality of "The Trinity" in having a real relationship with your god is outrageously obvious. One need not wonder any longer why it is, that religion OF ANY BRAND has ignited more wars and taken more human life than any other single "thing" in human history. It is as outrageously obvious as the Trinity being completely irrelevant to a relationship with God. God has not locked herself in a box and given the key to ANY one religion or spiritual belief. She has made Herself open to all human beings everywhere, at any time, in any manner necessary, in order for us ALL to be busy producing and "feeding on" the "fruit of the Spirit". She is able and willing to communicate Herself to humans in whatever idiosyncratic method might be necessary to reach each and every one of us any time we're looking for that fruit. That bowl of fruit lies on everyone's table, and when hungry enough by personal choice, it's like Elijah's cruse of oil.........never-ending light.....................peace.

FROM PAWTUCKET: I am truly humbled by the outpouring of donations. Yesterday, I was able to pay the $106 monthly hosting completely from donations. I am going to set up the new server this weekend. Once I have kicked the tires, we will switch over to it. Then we will install the updated software that should fix the ongoing outages. Words can't tell you the appreciation of your outpouring.