WhiteDove

Well first they were GOOD SEEED and then they were bad seed -->

mmmmmmmm spelling for mmmmmmmm as in mmmmmmmmm that is good coffee.

aaah Cowgirl Maybe you have FROST on your screen...... It arrived today you know.

Or to the weenie roast. Hope you did not use flat to start the fire

Too funny Garth! I ran into a local wayfer the other day and by chance I happened to have my greasespot T-shirt on.( No Paw not tie dye one) They just kept staring at it I was waiting for them to say something but they never did. Then again maybe they just had never seen a logo t-shirt that was not green.

A. I would have left Yes I did leave and several limb leaders as well but the Way still has a limb here so in a sence the limb did not leave if that's what you mean.. B. Would have stayed No this did not C. No D. No, but was not M&A until after I chose to leave. E. Yes I did assuming that by staff you include the BOT. Yes,somewhat as it confirmed what I had suspected to be true. But I had decided that if it were confirmed that I would be gone already.

Quote: posted by Wafer Not Thank God He looks on the heart, and He knows why I did what I did. Hopefully there was something beneficial in it all. I just don't see it yet, especially the 5 years I spent on staff..... Let brotherly love continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. (Hebrews 13:1&2) All service done with God's love is serving God it is not exclusive of or dependent on an organization

Oak you forgot to pack Rekilady ???? what were ya thinking? :D-->

Well, Bush said he respected Kerry for his many years of service in the Senate :)--> Thomas Heller you seemed to have forgotten the rest of the Quote so I added it for you. I'm sure it was an oversight...... Well, Bush said he respected Kerry for his many years of service in the Senate. But I don't respect his record.

Exactly Belle...Hef Martindale I'm sure he had plans to turn the Fountain of Living Waters into a grotto like Hef's.... The Playboy Mansion Grotto. Another grotto shot, normally full of naked drunkards.

Did someone say a girl in the bunny suit?

CATCUP:D--> Well given the alternative Rosalie I could live with that. Rosalie in a bunny suit, now that would just make me not want to eat.. for a long time.

Hap Something for you: :D--> http://www.campaigncollectables.com/index.php?ad=gd

David don't know where you heard that. The reason they "retired" was to practice for the debates. With all the advisers,they have a pretty good guess what types of questions will come up. So they just use these sample questions to formulate responses then polish them up. But it's a guess although I suspect as I said a pretty good one. And yes Hap I don't think Mr. Lehrer would risk his reputation on such a national TV draw by Rathering either. What would be the point?

Grizzy :D--> Good I wasn't hearing things again.... From the Google God's: MR. LEHRER: Good evening from the University of Miami Convocation Center in Coral Gables, Florida. I'm Jim Lehrer of the NewsHour on PBS, and I welcome you to the first of the 2004 presidential debates between President George W. Bush, the Republican nominee, and Senator John Kerry, the Democratic nominee. These debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight's will last 90 minutes following detailed rules of engagement worked out by representatives of the candidates. I have agreed to enforce their rules on them. The umbrella topic is foreign policy and homeland security, but the specific subjects were chosen by me, the questions were composed by me. The candidates have not been told what they are, nor has anyone else. ...

Since they both had copies of the questions, days in advance, I expected a dry "question and answer" session I thought the moderator said in the opening that no one had seen the questions?

Hop Hop Hop.... Another Bunny Believer attends the first church of Hef

QUOTE: I have no idea whether the small group I mentioned is still regurgitating this crap (discussed by the men only, of course) and I could frankly care less. Right now, I'm just hovering on the fringes, myself. Well now Watered Garden there ya go,you just wern't playin' by the men's rules. Mr. Purpose Driven has a name for people like you. You rascaly rabbit you:D--> "Today's culture of independent individualism has created many spiritual orphans—'bunny believers' who hop around from one church to another without any identity, accountability or commitments. Many believe one can be a "good Christian' without joining (or even attending ) a local church, but God would strongly disagree."[ page 133]

But will Flat Stanley be there? Now that's a good question.

I think that would be about right 84-85 we did one at our house in 84 and I think you also did one at the Oakley house but I'm not sure been too long ago. I don't think we did any more here after that. I know I didn't run any, the last class that I was supposed to do was CFF but after the response to Craig's Corps letter they decided that I was not qualified to do that. Those may have been the last to run at least up unto 88 when we left.

Quote:What is it that made us (wayfers) think that PFAL was the ONLY TRUTH (as in Jesus Christ) IN EXISTENCE IN THE WORLD? Ex 10 I think it definitely was the PFAL Jingle it haunts my brain. PFAL has something just for you It teaches you keys to unlock those doors And how to walk right through So if you want to have a powerful life Thats more than Abundant too Then P F A L is the class for you.

WG Seeing the obvious direction things were headed in and seeing no hint of any return to any resemblance of sanity I took my leave around 1988 so I missed the new truth years. Quote: We were told we were "old wine" and would not be compatible with the "new wine" of the Present Truth. The little smarmy bastard who was our BC said he just didn't think any of you old people will be strong enough to stand on the present truth. Then the attacks on anyone who had been around much before LCM's ascendancy to the throne were individually called on the carpet. I wonder didn't anyone notice that Craig and the other BOT and others were also "old wine"? Logically if they were old wine and somehow made it into the "present truth" whatever that is then it must be possible for others to also. Quote: And this is a different administration we are living under, The Present Truth. It is different from the truth Uncle Harry knew!" I don't recall there being a Present Truth Administration between the Grace and the Appearing or Revelation Administration. I wonder did he have an answer for why that is?

Watered Garden Sorry you were treated so horribly once again. Like the lady in this story I think you were for some reason branded as a resister and then were of course in some sick way expendable. Boy does this sound familiar. A stream of letters from troubled Christians around the world. They had watched as the focus of their churches shifted from Bible-based teaching to purpose-driven experiences. Many had sensed something wrong but couldn't define the problem. Some wondered how God's guidance fit into this tightly controlled man-made system. They had asked questions, but no one could calm their concern. They had tried to warn their pastor and friends but had been rebuffed. Some were even told to find another church. All shared the pain of rejection. The following letter from Pat Johnson illustrates the struggle faced by those who cannot, with a clear conscience, go along with a church that embraces the world's transformative marketing and management methods: "I just read 'Small Groups and the Dialectic Process.' Absolutely dead-on! At the end of it, I read this paragraph which took my breath away: 'In today's Church Growth Movement, resisters are usually sifted out fairly early in the process. In the next installment, we will look at some of the ways non-conformists are assessed, exposed, vilified and dismissed from the church families they have loved, served and supported. "I have been forced out of two churches for being such a 'resister.' I am a normal wife and mom and teacher who would not conform and, as you stated above, have been shunned and vilified. This has caused me considerable heartbreak and torment. For years I have struggled to cope with the shock of losing my church family and being branded as divisive. "The ONLY way I have been able to come through this is to return to my Lord and trust His Word only. For years, I didn't really realize that I had drifted away from Him. Then when the storm hit, I didn't have the means to withstand it. By His grace and mercy, I have emerged from the mind-hell that shaming and shunning create...." Vilifying and shaming "resisters" is nothing new. Old Testament prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah described the rejection and mockery they endured for speaking God's truth. At least one early Church was torn by similar hostilities. The apostle John told us about a church who modeled the kinds of tactics used in the Church Growth movement. The same is true in postmodern churches. Like secular change agents, from UN visionaries to local educators, church leaders are being trained in the latest business management theories. They envision a unified community where all members participate in the required "lifelong learning" and facilitated consensus groups. No one would be exempt from the continual assessments that measure cooperation, monitor compliance and provide leaders with the feedback needed . Since change agents must be totally committed to their strategic mission or purpose, they must also view dissenters as wrong. While some issues can be negotiated, this is not one of them. Successful transformation depends on persuading the vast majority to share their single-minded focus. Those who disagree with their manipulative strategies are viewed as intolerable barriers to the ultimate goal: a new way of collective thinking, being and serving. In the end, the specific vision or stated purposes matter little. What counts are the unity and conformity derived from the common focus, the feel-good group experiences, the peer pressure, and the facilitated process. The only real obstacles to mass compliance are those (usually faithful members) who oppose the essential steps to top-down control and infect others with their doubts. You may recognize some of the steps Identify resisters. In the Church Growth Movement, the resisters are those who question the need for systemic change (total restructuring of all facets), distrust the dialectic process, and criticize the transformational methods. What's worse, they refuse to shift their primary focus from the actual Scriptures to the positively phrased "purpose" or "vision" or "mission statement." "Change leaders should expect resistance to team learning. ... Recognizing and making this resistance explicit to other team members tends to lessen its grip. It takes time for a group to emerge as a team, and all the concerns and resistance related to teams will resurface during this period." Rick Warren is more subtle, and his references to health versus disease cloak his hostility toward "unhealthy" members who resist his agenda. In The Purpose Driven Church, he writes: "When a human body is out of balance we call that disease.... Likewise, when the body of Christ becomes unbalanced, disease occurs.... Health will occur only when everything is brought back into balance. The task of church leadership is to discover and remove growth-restricting diseases and barriers so that natural, normal growth can occur." Since change agents must be totally committed to their strategic mission or purpose, they must also view dissenters as wrong. While some issues can be negotiated, this is not one of them. Successful transformation depends on persuading the vast majority to share their single-minded focus. Those who disagree with their manipulative strategies are viewed as intolerable barriers to the ultimate goal: a new way of collective thinking, being and serving. Establish rules, regulations, laws and principles that silence, punish or drive out resisters. At Saddleback, every new member must sign a "Membership Covenant." It includes this innocuous promise: "I will protect the unity of my church... by following the leaders." This covenant is backed by Scriptures such as Ephesians 4: 29 ("Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths....) and Hebrews 13:17 ("Obey your leaders and submit to their authority....") But taking a stand on God's Word is hardly what the Bible refers to as "unwholesome talk." And, if church leaders followed the world's management system rather than God's way, the command to "obey your leader and submit...." would be overruled by other relevant Scriptures. For example, when the religious leaders in Jerusalem told John and Peter to stop teaching "in the name of Jesus," they answered, Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” Acts 4:19

The Power Players behind the BOOK and what they are selling. As most of you know, Rick Warren, the founding pastor of Saddleback Church in Southern California, has been leading the way and breaking new ground in today's Church Growth Movement. With over 50,000 names on his church roll, he models the success of the church management process he outlined in his earlier book, The Purpose-Driven Church. Peter Drucker the legendary management guru began teaching large corporations decades ago and this has now been applied to God's churches as well as to communities and governments around the world. Since the new methods seemed to "work" equally well for churches as for corporations -- and since the measured results offer statistical "proof" of "success" -- pastors from countless nations have embraced and implemented Drucker's marketing approach to "doing church." In a 2002 article in Business Week titled "Peter Drucker's Search for Community," Ken Witty describes the world view that drives Drucker's plans and purpose: "He brings a comunitarian philosophy to his consulting.... He said that what he's all about is this search for community, the search for where people and organizations find community for noneconomic satisfaction.... "A lot of his ideas have become so accepted that it's hard for anyone to understand how original they were at the time he introduced them. It's sort of like Freud and psychoanalysis. Peter was the first, for example, to help managers understand that they had to define their businesses from a customer's perspective. Focusing on the "customer's perspective" brings success. People feel satisfied. They come and they buy. When this process is applied to churches, it works! With polls and surveys, a church can easily uncover the "felt needs" of the unbelievers in the local community -- then target their services to their intended consumers. Why focus on the felt needs of unbelievers rather than the true needs of God's family? Doesn't this strategy turn God's principles upside down? "...in this movement, it is imperative that unbelievers are brought into the church; otherwise, the process of continual change cannot begin. There must be an antithesis (unbelievers) present to oppose the thesis (believers), in order to move towards consensus.(compromise), and move the believers away from their moral absolutism (resistance to change). If all members of the church stand firm on the Word of God, and it’s final authority in all doctrine and tradition, then the church cannot and will not change. This is common faith. Soon, we will see why these “change agents” are pushing so hard for change to occur in the church." Pastor Warren's current tutor in this management process is CMS a "full-service custom marketing and communications agency head-quartered in Covina, California." It's shows its mission: "At CMS, we view it as our mission to help our clients grow their businesses. We do this by working with each client identifying opportunities and developing innovative, creative and profitable services which assist them in the execution of effective marketing, sales and communications program.... We are best able to serve clients when they allow us to act as partners.... CMS is made up of a team of talented individuals whose dedication and expertise have earned them a solid reputation for creating results. While CMS partners includes secular giants such as Quaker and Isuzu Motors America, it also serves clients such as the City of West Covina, "Purpose Driven Ministries," "Saddleback Valley Community Church," "Smalley Relationship Center" and "Walk Thru the Bible." The latter was founded and led by Bruce Wilkinson, author of the well marketed bestseller , The Prayer of Jabez. No wonder curious visitors are flocking to Purpose-Driven churches. Small wonder pastors around the world are watching, listening, ready to follow. Peter Drucker's unbiblical emphasis on success by man's standards should stir great alarm among Christians. What happens to people who don't fit his blueprint for productive human resources? Sarah Leslie, co-author of The Pied Pipers of Purpose, a vital document that makes the complexities and connections behind the new management systems understandable, wrote: "We’ve come across numerous references in the Purpose-Driven literature to a concept called 'abandonment.' It is a Peter Drucker concept that has to do with businesses abandoning parts of their business that don’t make money. In the private sector (churches) it translates into churches abandoning projects that don’t produce pre-defined 'results' (the measurable kind, 'outcomes,' etc.). This also means abandoning people who don’t go along with the flow — the 'laggards' who won’t participate in the transformation. A church split is seen as a good thing, in that it gets rid of those people who are blocking progress towards church restructuring." If someone were to rewrite the parable of the Shepherd who leaves the 99 sheep to search for the one that was lost, do you wonder if he would check to make sure the one lost sheep would fit the new management standards?