Ham

No argument here, but they are not gonna work on my brain unless they have more than good wishes. Stepping over the line into this relm of psychological "conditioning" is something a loving person would not do, in my opinion, given the track record of "results". To put someone in a "survival" exercise, with little more than a few people standing by with at best CPR training is reprehensible.

The momentus thing got me going about qualifications, or the lack thereof. Why is this true for these kind of organizations? CES included.. Those in authority often don't have qualifications, credentials. Or few, or the wrong ones, to run an organization, to counsel PEOPLE. It seems a lot of people followed up on v.p.'s example of throwing caution to the wind to acquire a skunk-pelt from a degree mill, so to speak. Some didn't even bother going that far. I can understand how some people feel- why stifle people.. why denigrate their abilities because they lack the proper sheepskin, or proper credentials.. and I partly agree. BUT. In the "real world" it is the EXCEPTION that someone lacks the proper educational requirements, degrees and certificates. Not the RULE. ESPECIALLY when it comes to helping people, as some kind of psychological "trainer" or such. Maybe they think it's too late to go back to school, learn it right.. maybe they've graduated from High School, and don't have a place to go. There's, on one hand, several more years of hard work.. on the other, EASY MONEY. All of those "fluff" classes in college as they call them, are there for a reason.. if you graduate from a reputable school today, you know a little about ethics, history, and perhaps philosophy. No matter what your degree is in. They are less likely to follow a bunch of lemmings down a deep hole. The history prof at my school said something to the class like "awwww, you don't see why you should learn history, boo hoo hoo. Maybe you oughta go to a certification place, someplace like Devries. They won't make you learn history.." He wasn't QUITE that mean.. heheh.

My other thought along these lines is, why is lack of qualifications, lack of training the RULE among these self "help" groups, rather than the EXCEPTION? The community college I went to.. and it was not a large one- EVERY math professor had a MASTER'S degree in math, which over-qualified them for what they were teaching, and 9 out of 10 were currently working on their DOCTORATE. The university I'm in now- EVERY math professor has a Doctorate, period. I didn't have to sign a hold harmless agreement with the university when I enrolled, either. Lack of education among these self "help" groups appears to the rule.

The way I think about it: If somebody doesn't have qualifications, they are PRACTICING, on YOU. Not "practicing" as in what a real doctor does, more like, pre-game "practice". If they HIDE their experience and qualifications, and I can EASILY follow the path of dead bodies to their front door.. with the exception of ONE person I personally know here.. the other "procedures" have been an abject FAILURE. Ended with unchecked egotism, unbridled arrogance, divorce.. hatred masked as love.. hypocrisy, delusions of Moghood.. give me a different logical reason for the conclusion I am forming. "God works in mysterious ways.." I'm really glad I wasn't really far up the TWI totem pole.. somebody probably would've tried to push the thing on me, and I'd a tried it.. Thank God for the little things in life..

Perhaps an understatement. The real "big" momentus guy doesn't even publish on his website where he got his BACHELLOR'S degree from. Or did he even get one? His claim to fame: he is an "ordained minister". From WHERE? There is one person I know with a bachellor's degree in psychology that I would barely trust to time a rat as he made his way through the maze.. But somebody who won't even reveal where he got his "training". "well, I've been around.." Holy smokes.. have a headache? I can fix it with a little "procedure". heck, it's cheap.. no claims of sterility, however. Qualifications? "I've been around..." Make sure you bring cash, in advance. Oh, just one "little" thing, this little waiver.. "your pen or mine?"

Look what it did to CES.. all the top dogs there have had "THE EXPERIENCE". Wanna hold office in that organization? better get with the program.. I saw what a commercial version of this kind of seminar did to my boss.. no BETTER than before, not IMPROVED- just more arrogant, more aggressive. More, well, GOAT. "errrr, I'm GOD here.." I had to tiptoe around that crap for over a year.. and I won't even begin to mention what it did to the business. I didn't sign the hold harmless, maybe *I* should sue for damages.. My opinion, NO MONEY, NO AMOUNT OF PERSONAL SUCCESS, gained for people whom I have observed who went through this seminar, is worth the price paid. Spiritually, I'd be better off unemployed and homeless somewhere.

Yeah.. but Rich, you bring up a very good point about goats. How is it that some people escape unscathed from this thing.. others, well. The "goats" that entered the goat rehab called momentus, emerged as.. (no suprise) bigger and "better" GOATS. More convinced, more egotistical, more arrogant.. with more focus. I think the sheep that entered it either got hurt, or simply came through unscathed. Goats can be pretty good at "confrontation" you know.. they can offer vile, nasty "prophecies" to make people tow the line.. threats that people are being "unbilblical" and such.

They THINK they do, and are rather convinced of it. They think they know what you THINK. They THINK they hold inside information about the motivation behind every thing you do. I've had "them" so far miss the mark.. what they described, and what I thought were day and night apart.. but there was no convincing "them", they were the experts.. I can hide what's on the inside fairly well if I want to, and I found them grasping at straws trying to "get it". If they are STILL abusing people like this, things haven't changed much. The way I look at it there are two choices. Either: 1. They are indeed what they say, and can see devils under every rock, read people's minds and have the heavy revelation on their lives 2. They are NUTS. Gone off the deep end, huffed a little too much glue.. drank WAY too much of their own koolaide.. lost in delusions of Godhood. In my PERSONAL experience, I can safely rule out number one.

You'd think, wouldn't you..

Maybe they'll save it for "grad" meetings, like the old PFAL segment "the day Jesus Christ died". Only viewable by those "mature" enough.. Are they actually STILL running video from loy's class? That would suprise me.. but not too much.

While I would think twice inhaling anything with flourine in it, this chemical appears to be quite stable. The "experts" say it is non-toxic.

Yeah. Too bad some people give us a good reason to despise "prophecies", sorting through spiders and such, trying to make some kind of meaning out of it.

Just so much office politics, office "games" with a very thin christian veneer. The "commercial" version of their precious seminar teaches people how to REALLY play the game, no holds barred. Put people in a "lifeboat", and decide who's staying.. must be as much "fun" as watching two cats tied together, hung over a clothes line.

burying the wrong guy... heheheh.

The idea that J.L., M.G., et al NEEDED a good head knocking says a lot. Maybe they need to go back a couple times for some "retraining" if it is all so great.. Put all three and minions in the "lifeboat" exercise.. Or maybe that is what they just did. Ah, who to throw out.. I wonder if the board will now require the signing of a hold harmless agreement as a requirement to hold office in that place.. that would take care of those pesky lawsuits. With all the confrontations, maneuvering, tossing out of the boat.. to me, it looks like they took the momentus book and made "momentus, da movie"..

I have actually seen this once.. minus the snowstorm

I can live with that.. I just wish they didn't recommend it for the rest of us who don't need it. Why don't they do what they did in the old days, go off and join the French Foreign Legion or something..

That one gets my vote. Not to be crass, or mean or anything.. but it reminds me of some kids I knew in my youth who huffed a little too much glue- they just weren't all there..

Trouble is, once it's rolling, it's hard to stop.. let's see, where'd I leave off.. ah. ".. to guide and to comfort me. Lo, though I recline in satin, cotton, or cheap polyester, Thou wilt bring comfort and plump softness to my head, all the days of my life..."

"Oooooooh, Mighty Pillow, guide me through the good times, the bad times,.. yea, though I pass through the valley of orthopedic discomfort, thou art with me..."

Literally. I said, "you're not giving yourself just a LITTLE too much credit here, are you?" As far as Lynn/Graeser/Schoenheit and company are concerned- I think the little seminar was one of the important stepping stones along The Way that helped remove the final barriers or limitations between them and their delusions of Moghood..

I've seen what the "commercial" version of this kind of thing does to people.. my boss came back from one of these things a few years ago, the poor b*s*ard thought he was God..

No, I haven't taken it.. and I won't. I've seen what it does to other people. Lynn, Graeser, et. al make the perfect momentus "poster child". The perfect "witnesses" to the merits of momentus. My opinion, the experience took an already pompus, arrogant know-it-all personality and removed the rest of the restraints. "anybody who's anybody" in the organization has taken this seminar. It's the "secret handshake".. the "mark of maturity".. Read the threads here.. look at what the inner core of CES has done and is doing. They are ALL momentus grads. No thanks, not for me. No thanks- I'll save time and money and beat my own pillow, on my own terms.. Honestly, I'm pompous, egotistical enough as it is. I don't REALLY need any more "help" :)

No, I didn't get it "backwards" I really meant- old wine, new skins.

I dunno.. I think there is a distinction between concentrated effort and grunting one's way to "success". Honestly, any screaming, or beating the pillow I've done hasn't done me any good in life.. didn't make me feel any better either. Didn't provide solutions.. at least I didn't pay somebody cashola for THAT particular lesson. Just seems to me, if you find your own path, the rest is easy. Like the butterfly. Someone may SAY that it is hard, that it's experience isn't enjoyable, but how do you know? Maybe he's having the time of his life. Sheesh.. butterflies don't need a lamaze partner or something, "breath, breath, breath, now pushhhhhhhh..." In a lot of ways, I think the momentus experience is like trying to put old wine in new wine skins. The old wine might be "awesome", but maybe a person oughta try something "new"..