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Yep Coolchef. The interesting thing.. the people that I helped in the most significant way, they never committed to the mininstry- thank God. They got what God held out for them, and moved on. In this I am thinking of three specific incidences. One of them was a real, iron clad, undeniable miracle. And it was just for the person that was there at the time. Come to think of it, Da Vey was never even mentioned.

Belle, I did a yahoo search for Huriahulla. Guess the only place in the universe it showed up at..

The one scary part of it to me, is some of them carry the legacy of PFAL- some STILL think it is the verd like not revealed since the first century. That kind of exclusivism does seem to be a rather good breeding ground for abuse.

Funny, but true. Really. Give it twenty, twenty five years or so.. She is not the same gal you married, or the one you thought you did. I think that actually can be kind of fun! Who says marriage is supposed to be boring..

HCW, I'd wear that as a medal of honor..

One more point, and I'll be done for a while.. Why in the he** did I just sit in those da*n meetings and just suck that junk up? I think I figured it out.. These were THE SAME MEN that this character had expressed respect for. He made his "deal with the devil" to do either what he thought was right, or just what he wanted to do.. These were the men he endorsed with HIS reputation. And that was all I knew. The wolves came, and we were basically defenseless.

One of the next few meetings, I remember the "beloved" branch coordinator's wife boasting how they "got rid of" the people that were bothering us.. ptooie.

I recall the manner they publically defamed this character. For all I know he may have had a few faults, but holy smokes. The most scathing comments regarded his financial affairs, and his marriage. He was not "qualified" to be any kind of leader, because.. he couldn't get his wife to tow the line regarding every ministry doctrine and mandate. They called his wife an unbeliever. Made him less of a man, somehow, and at the least, "unequally yoked". He was accused of padding the books to get a decent salary. Looking back, he probably barely got his need met, if even that. Of course his opinion or reply was not present or welcome. If you're REALLY a good guy in the Corps, you don't stand a chance.

I remember the few brief comments I EVER heard about inside stuff from any of them- "I just don't see how we are THAT jaded. But it must be true.."

The "corps household" under his leadership paid the most dearly. Anybody with ANY love or compassion had a choice- get on track with the "decade of confrontation", get on track with uncle loy, or get the hell out. We never heard from the old limb guy again. Never heard his side of the story. Sure "protected" us from the bad element- right.

Just one more of those dang conspiracies I guess..

Yep.. good point Catcup. If somebody thinks they are going to be able to protect people, think again. What's gonna happen to "your" people when you are forced or chased out? Usually it is not very pleasant. We had a limb coordinator here, and he was a pretty nice guy.. When they "found out" about him, the whole state paid, dearly. Blood ran- almost literally. They screamed and snarled, they cut and they chopped. What was left they ran through a meat grinder. They "lovingly confronted" roughly nine-tenths of the followers all the way to oblivion. What do you think is going to happen to the people YOU are responsible for?

May be 19 or 20, lost count, but- I repair TV's and other electronic stuff, but I'd rather sit home and play with advanced calculus and chemistry books than to watch TV. Now the real biggie: It annoys me to no end when "you people" leave me holding the bag, with my name on "just plain silly" for weeks on end with no one else replying, well, maybe I deserve it :o-->

OK Sharon, I'm still waiting for nr. one..

Quite true. But I think the heart of the problem, was Wierwille and others tried to resurrect a unique version of a "christian" Jihad for modern times. More commitment. More this, more that.. Loy claimed that it required blood, sweat, and tears, if you had any "salt" to you.. And that there are "those among us who would GLADLY execute you"- for homosexuality, "unfaithfulness", etc.. as if they were doing God service or something.

Another thread got me on this again.. Good grief. Maybe its more of a teaching called "how to weasel anything out of the almighty in five easy lessons". Really. You get in town, and you scout out the lay of the land (what's available) Now you start working out the details of how you're gonna get it. Act religious, pray, picture yourself walking on the moon- maybe you don't think you're really doing this, but perhaps you are trying to prove to God that you believe or something.. but its not out of love. It's to get something for oneself, somehow scam it out of HIM. Then you have to convince HIM that its for a good purpose. That it will be used properly to move the verd, or to show how a "believer" prospers, or etc, etc,.. But what you can squeeze out of God, well, you want something that you can carry off. Something that may require some kind of commitment or self-sacrifice, well, you don't NEED THAT. If all else fails, remind the Almighty that he surely has the ability and willingness to pull it off, if He is "anybody" in the universe.. And we actually thought that God would somehow see it OUR way.. good grief. I think its somewhere close to blasphemy to think the almighty can't see through such a transparent ploy.

Same nonsense, available, yes. Guaranteed, no. What a great "reward"- ptooie.

I don't know.. if you are in a HABIT of talking, it should not be a big deal. Just say it. But I can see where a lot of TWI nonsense broke down trust between me and former spouse. The former leaders were EXPERTS in treating each spouse in a very different manner. I honestly thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread hit the scene. When she told me some stuff, I found it very hard to believe. She would say "we need to talk" when what she really meant, I now think, was "you need to believe what I am saying". Maybe if she said that, things may have been different- maybe not- I wasn't exactly in a real good state of mind. In a lot of ways, neither was she.. I had no idea what kind of snakes we were dealing with, until long after I left.

Sorry Belle, your choo choos are so much fun, heh heh. If that gave you a headache reading it, think what it did to me writing it..

"Ms (?) Rivenwoof, you are instructed to answer the question" "At no time, never ever, did I not ever refuse to tell the truth to this great court of law..." Prosecuter: "Ms (?) Woof, please answer the question. Rosie: "I object" "I have at all times and in every circumstances in my efforts not given a proper answer, and I do not refuse to not to do so never again. Edited to give nots and nevers there places where they never should have not been to begin with.

May not ever get it to stick though. Probably take two or three days establishing what counsel defines as "debt".. Probably end up being similar to WJ Clinton's definition of "sex".

Thanks Cindy!. Pretty good stuff there. I think for it it to be effective, the mindset can't be "what can I get out of this". Maybe that's why I didn't actively seek this kind of instruction when I was younger- just too immature.

Yep. How low can you go.. I can only imagine. Turned into a finger pointer. "THIS needs done". My ex saw it with the old leadership here. What really got her was when their three year old daughter started doing it too. Bastards. They never showed this kind of treatment to me. Just another way to try to divide people, I guess. I thought she was nuts, until I finally saw it for myself. God, forgive me.. But there Donna sits still, another disqualified finger pointer.. Probably forgot what you even use the little brush for.

Makes sense MO. But I think in Moneyhands case, the "friends" are too AFRAID to say anything.

Don't know about all of them. But I think they are labelled guilty by (ex) association. Even back in the "good old days", not every twig was a cult, either. Can't say that with much certainty now. My opinion is anybody out of that place, who was in leadership capacity, who wants to bring "da verd to da world" so to speak, should recognize that they are going to have to live with a little bit of scrutiny, and I think rightly so. For myself, the first time they claim superiority or some kind, or exclusive ownership of the truth, or even IMPLY it, that would be enough to make my hair stand on end. Even from something like a mission statement. Perhaps for some. Maybe some offshoots are like a spiritual methadone treatment program. "We will abuse you just a LITTLE bit so you will be more comfortable during withdrawl". Myself, I went off of the cult business cold turkey for about a year.. I think that was the best for me. The withdrawl symptoms were not that bad..