bliss

Hi Steve! Yes, I have been studying the ''Orthodox Preterism" view for some time now. Not the heretical, full or ''Hyperpreterist'' belief that Jesus returned to earth and all judgements are final now view. This seems to be the direction you are headed with the belief in a rapture then. Am I right? Do you believe that all is over? No judgments left? I do believe that the destruction of Jeruselem and the Temple in 70ad was a fulfillment of many prophesies.......... and that the whole ''Left Behind'' series has plagued many well meaning Christians, into a sort of gloom-doom life. But I don't believe that Jesus had returned for the judgements. I don't believe in a ''rapture'' or ''gathering together''. I believe when he comes back, judgement time. For those interested in studying this topic, I suggest to check out www.preteristsite.com She has ooodles of info on there. As well as www.tektonics.org Great sites for this kind of study. I was so disappointed in my lack of knowledge concerning religious history and what really befell Isreal in those days. Josephus records many of the horrifying incidents when Nero's gang from Rome destroyed the temple and the people there.

Belle, your hair is so red and pretty! Is that Redken Hot Tamale, or Matrix Cinnabar? You all had fun, so jealous............... I've been sick all week.........

(((New Life))) Bless your heart. I think Everyone here has felt just as you at some point. If you love God and want to continue down that path then the one thing to start with is HIM. PRAY, and ask Him what/where He thinks you should be. Just pray that He guides your feet in the way the He wants you to go. Sometimes we put such emphasis on what WE want, that we miss what God has for us! We just left a couple years ago..............got on my knees (for the first time....) and prayed that He would show me and lead me (for the first time, I'd always liked telling Him what to do)..... The rest is HIStory. :) oh, and it helps to throw out all the bathwater, and sometimes even the baby for a little while........ That is a good way to get rid of Way Brain. John 14:26 - the Holy Spirit shall shall teach you all things..............

Oldies said" the mother was always afraid to have the child walk home alone, so she always met him, and never taught him the correct way to cross the street." In case you missed it :) Then you said: "I do not believe that she transitted her fear through the atmosphere and it killed the boy." But that is what was taught, and what the Way's def of believing is. That is why we are going back and forth here. :blink: This may be how YOU interpreted it, but it is obviously not how most interpreted it, and I am sure is not what VP meant. But, we'll never know.....................

So, why don't we find the ''woman who believed negatively and whos son was killed by the car"? You know, get her take on it. How much fear did she have? Was she ''obsessed" about it? How did VP find out about it? What mother doesn't teach their kid to look both ways before crossing the street? Come on with that excuse, Oldies.... Is there / was there such a woman??????? I am beginning to think he pulled it out of his arse so he could have a really dramatic/horrifying example. <_<

If GOD wasn't mentioned or the bible never taught we NEVER would have gotten involved in The Way, correct? Remember the story of the conterfeit bills??? If a dollar had a picture of howdy doody on it, you would know it was fake. But, make it close enough (talk about God and the bible), but it's not real, it has flaws only a pro could find......(law of believing), then you could get away with making your own doctrine and religion looking pretty real. J.Juedes is not saying GOD was never mentioned or that our hearts were not to God , the One whom all the blessings flow. The class may have even made it loud and clear, and in writing that is was about GOD. If it wasn't we would've left. I am not offended at all Oldies by his comments. My heart was to worship God, but wrong teaching left Him out of the picture. I know this it true, because I have seen a dramatic differerence in my relationship with God now that I have gotten rid of my ol mindset. I know you don't really ''go'' anywhere and have not left the Way in your logic, so I can't expect you to know the other side. You think your side is just fine, and that is ok. I wasn't ok with the side I was on. So, I allowed God to lead me away from PFAL for a bit. Now, , I am more excited and free and in love with my Lord more now than I ever was in the Way. I will never go back to PFAL illogic. That is the trick. WE all thought we were doing it God's way. What is the point here is what was APPLIED! (from the top down) From VPW, Craig, Region, Limb, Branch, Twig, and even the rest of the leaves on the tree............what we did and said about this topic was blasphemous! How many friends of mine died with condemnation and guilt because they kept hearing to ''get their believing up there".....now that is offensive! I thought Jesus said ''faith as small as a mustard seed"? Small, little, just enough......not ''get it up, more, bigger........." They/We taught it as a law, and as such, leaves God out of the picture. Intentional or not, that is what this system of ''believing'' is all about. Heck I'll even say I dont' think VPW knew he was leaving God out. :unsure:

Sorry, Oldies, there are NOT 900 promises of health and wealth. I think you might check your bible again on that one. 3 John comes to mind that was taken totally out of context and everyone made a nice ''name it and claim it'' doctrine out of it. John was talking, and asking ''I hope that you are well and prosperous.'' Kind of like a letter I would write to someone and asking them how they are doing and that I hope they are well. He never says that God wishes that they become/be/are/claim prosperity or health, he said ''I" wish. Can God heal? Yes. Can we prosper? Yes. But, to believe it into being and that it comes to pass because you think God says it's available???? Nah. I love this article. Thanks John Juedes. You will help a lot of people break free from condemnation.

Yes, Dan, I was thinking the same thing concerning ''Christ in you" and what we do with the ''set-up'' if we stick to TWI version. It just doesn't make sense. But to say (small h, s) holy spirit , Christ in you......................then of course gotta add the ''God in Christ in you in manifestation..........................." blah blah..............Can't forget TWI version of holy spirit being an "it'' not a ''he'' ya know...... I don't see how ''a man'' who ascended into heaven can be in us too? He sends the comforter, says he (HS) will guide us in all truth, be our teacher, yet says he(JC) is in us and with us? that is more confusing trying to keep them separate and making this fit, than the trinity itself! good sunesis....:)

Ok. You've mentioned this a few times so I had to give my opinion. You don't mind do you???:) GOD has a PLAN! PERIOD. NO PLAN B! He has a plan, and He sticks to the plan, and gets it accomplished anyway HE needs to. He is using humans to accomplish HIS PLAN, so HE is flexible. Needs to add/change, help, move, shake, rattle and roll different ways....but it is always the same PLAN! To keep saying God goes to plan B is saying that man is in the drivers seat and God is subject to our wills. This is not so. God has a plan (Will) and He allows us to surrender to it to accomplish His goals or we can get out of the way. He'll find someone who will get it done. Either way, God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. God's heart was to have Isreal accept the Messiah, yes, but His plan all along was for everyone to be His kids, not just one group of people. We (the church, Gentiles ) were not Plan B. Thank you, you may continue............................

I don't think He has a problem with it at all. I pray to God in His name also. But that is not the only issue. You are still not in a ''relationship'' with Christ. You are just using His name. I can talk ''about you'' Oldies all day here on GSC. But, I still wouldn't have a relationship with you unless I talked/emailed, PMd, /see you. That is the other problem with PFAL/WAY theology. We knew a lot''about'' Him. But we didn't ''know'' Him. I am talking about ALL THREE too. Not just Jesus Christ.

"The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out." That is the point. If we are discussing the trinity, then, OLDIES, yes, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER, and if they ALL ARE ONE, then it doesn't matter which one we address.............. T-Bone, thanks for all your hard work here. I don't think you answer anyone's questions directly enough Oldies, and you don't really read the scriptures quoted, seems to me. But, I know We aren't going to change your mind. Only God can do that. Just ask Jesus to show you!

Nice posts Dan, Sunesis, and David ( I know you meant Jonah and not Noah>>>>:)) * The one who has MY commandments and keeps them is the one who loves ME.....the one who loves ME will be loved by MY FATHER. I also will love him and REVEAL MYSELF TO HIM* John 14:21 *I want you to know that Christ is the HEAD of every man and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ" * 1 Cor 11:3 So, during our exit from TWI things were really stressful. Mr. Bliss and I were discussing some very important issues. He was very disturbed. I said " talk to Jesus about it". Brought up mini corpse his whole life, he barked immediately " I am not going to talk to Jesus!". I quietly reminded of this verse in 1 Cor, by saying, "why not? honey, you are my head, and I talk with you so we can make decisions together. If Jesus is YOUR HEAD, why are you not communicating with him? How is he your head if he can't ''direct'' you? How can you agree with this verse by ignoring/by/passing him?" That statement changed our lives. It is a matter of submission. As a woman, I am not offended by this arrangement.. It is because Christ himself was willing to submit. Therefore worthy of ours. My hubby was now willing to finally surrender/yeild/ submit to his higher authority. (me too) This is how a ''relationship'' with Christ is built. Is using only ''his name'' at the end of our prayers trully acknowleging His Lorship? As Head of the Church? I think not. * I am the BREAD OF LIFE: he that cometh TO ME shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:35 * ...my sheep hear MY VOICE, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME". I think the biggest ''boo boo'' in the PFAL series was this issue. Without knowing the ''how'' to make Him Lord, how many truly didn't ? It doesn't say to confess that he lived, it says confess Him as LORD. my2scents edited to say I know longer am stuck on 666 posts! yahooooooo!

Simplicity Jesus= NO HUMAN FATHER none, zip, nada What does that make him? It certainly does NOT make him like a regular man. PFAL minimized this fact to make him just like us. Heck, they couldn't even keep Mary a virgin until after the birth. No, he was and is no regular man. Can you imagine yourself in heaven seated down at the right hand of God? New body and all, wouldn't you feel a little , out of place? I dunno. I was trying to write a funny skit about this very thing. I laughed a lot trying to see a "man" Jesus kinda sitting down after the resurection and looking over at God and saying "whoa, that was some suffering. Now what? Hey, I always wondered what the cheribum were.........Oh, send everyone that confesses me as lord, a gift? wow, that will keep me busy. Hey God, you know, I did everything you asked of me, I obeyed every jot and tittle........even unto death.......and since I am the only human up here, and me being the 'second Adam' and all...........you think just maybe, you could make me a 'second eve?'" I am thinking out loud. You don't mind do you?

I have thought about this for a while. I don't believe once you are born again, you can get ''possessed'' by spirits. Is there a scripture reference for one person loaded AFTER they were born again? The ones Jesus healed believed after they were healed if I remember correctly. Definately we can be influenced by spirits, and even quench the spirit inside while we let the lusts of our flesh and our sinful selves take over. Hence Jesus and Pauls admonitions throughout scripture. But, to me, God's spirit and a devil spirit could not reside in the same location. We all sin, and fall short, some more than others....... ........but, the records of ''possessed'' people were obvious and always WAY OUT OF CONTROL. I mean, ''lunatic'' comes to mind. I don't think LCM was possessed. (mind you, he did ACT like a lunatic at times....) But, I believe he was in full control of his mental and physical capacities. He certainly wasn't Christ focused and didn't surrender his lusts and desires to Him. (plus a lot of wrong teaching....) Therefore, sin prevailed. next, LCM used to teach that you can trace the ''seed of the serpent'' from Genesis on.......... well that's BS! If GOD Almighty didn't have ''seed'' available until the day of Pentecost, then how can the devil have it since the beginning of creation? just my 2cents

Just PM him! :)

Ok, I know I am not ignorant. I know that the lungs aren't always fully developed. But, there is a point when they are done ''cooking'' in utero. The lungs are one of the functions that cannot ''practice'' in the womb before birth because of it's environment. I don't think it has anything to do with becoming alive neccessarily. Babies in utero, can blink, suck thumb, heart beats, respond to touch, sound, temperature.........they can practice all those things except breathing. Once we are out of the womb, if you take away our air, all our other functions stop also (obvious). Interesting its the opposite before birth. All those functions are working, and the lungs are ''waiting''. Hey maybe that is the key to underwater living? LOL Oldies, you are straining nats!

Oldiesman said "Interesting thought: those scriptures refer to Jesus and David. Would you proclaim the same verses for Adolph Hitler?" Oldies, What is YOUR problem? That is a ridiculous question. Why not comment on the ''brephos'' words used...........??? I can tell you've never been pregnant. Are you saying we can't apply the Psalms to ourselves? :unsure: "the fetal lungs are nonfunctional" I know, Larry, isn't God so cool? Surpressed breathing. If the lungs were functional in the womb, then the baby would drown! No gills, just lungs for air only. Awesome. Thanks Rascal. I hear ya. I am so sorry for all the women ( and you) who have had to go through the bondage (mental and physical) because of wrong teaching by creeps. God knows what the deal was. Those babies are waiting in His arms.

Here is what I found interesting the other day when studying the word ''babe'' in the New Testament. Not sure if it was mentioned before. The new testament uses the Greek word brephos for both an UNBORN and Newborn infant. When pregnant Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, met Mary, the brephos within her leapt for joy (Luke 1:41). Later, Mary wrapped her brephos (Jesus) in swaddling clothes and laid Him in a manger. (Luke 2:7) hummmmmm????? :blink: Seems it was a baby already in God's eyes. Funny, the Way seemed to miss this important word when they screamed ''appendage'' at us all the time. You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made............. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret.... And in Your book they were all written, The days fashioned for me. Psalm 139:13-16

I stand corrected Danny, I think it was while he was in college. I am only recounting conversations with him, and that it was an issue for them that they never got to use their training on the field. After college, he went right into the Corps, at Gunnison and now work at HQ. But as a Way Corps grad (and couple) they haven't run anything. No matter. Many of the Way big wigs didn't do much field work. I think his parents are the exception.

:my edit: He is on the ''cabinet'' .........sorry and Notawayfer, when they got pregnant right out of residence, it was very scary for them. It could be they got to stay because of family connections, or leaders extended ''grace'' and were in a good mood that day. Who knows? You know the Way is/ was NEVER CONSISTANT! Exceptions/ no exceptions abound! The only thing not going for him, (BM) is that he has never been on the field. Never ran a twig, branch, limb, nothing. <_< .

Being that I am still ''friends'' with B. Moynih@n, I am not surprised at all about this. He has been fighting the establishment since in residence. For the life of me I don't understand how he didn't get kicked out. He has always stood up for the scriptures (at least the way's interp of them) and looks at them as ''people'' and not MOGS! He is on the board of directors. His vision has always been to be the Sec/Treas. He's never taken his eyes off that goal. I guess now, his goal is even higher. October is coming............................ Every innie I talk to is totally ''bored'' with leadership at the root. No ''revelation'' (no yelling) no excitement, no ''new light'', no MOG to follow. It makes them totally frustrated and dull. So, I can see someone young and fresh as a welcomed change. I love him and his wife and kids. They are ''good'' people. They went through tremendous strain and emotions during the ''craig'' thing. But, they wanted to hold fast to the ''Word'' no matter what guy ( or girl) screws it up. He wants to make a change. The doctrinal foundations of the Way is what keeps them there, not neccessarily the leaders. (don't worry, its still a house built on sand............so I won't be living in it).................but, they don't see it that way. They see it as something worth saving. (sigh)

First, I allow God to lead me where I need to go. (right now it's a Baptist church). Dropped all the baby/bathwater and started over. Including whether or not Jesus is God. It is a mistaught doctrine from TWI no matter what the answer is. So, it's a good idea to allow the holy spirit be your teacher, (John 14:26) and not your preconceived or wrongly taught opinions on the subject. Otherwise, you mind as well go back to the Way or an offshoot, since that is the only place you'll be taught these subjects that already agree with your comfort zone. Second, find a place that worships God ABOVE the bible. (in TWI, I worshipped the''Word'' more than the Author). Lastly, I usually check for dirty fingernails. If I am gonna listen to anyone tell (share, teach) me about God and what we should do, I check to see if they get their hands dirty doing what they preach. welcome.

When someone invites ME over for dinner and cooks for ME, I OFFER to do dishes. It's the polite thing to do. You know, act like Jesus. I am sure He would've done the dishes. It's called service.

Concerned Uncle, Welcome here! Are you sure they are still a part of The Way International NOW, at present? There are no family camps in upstate New York that are Way affiliated. All family camps will be in Colorado. There are spin -offs that might be in NY, like Jeaniam stated. The Way is many things, but as of now, they aren't telling people to runaway from family, they are actually trying to get them to ''love'' everyone. Sounds like a bad xway spinoff cult to me. If it is a Way Intl' meeting, then it is completly isolated to that Branch or Limb Coord. But, if they live in Ohio, they wouldn't really be going to a NY Limb meeting. I am sorry you are seeing your loved ones go through this. My heart aches for the younger ones, confused they probably are. No matter what, keep your relationship with them sweet and offer your home as a place to come , ANY TIME they need to. They might take you up on it, to escape.

O M G! Sinners don't pray? Are you serious with that statement? Please tell me you're not serious. I am a sinner. Sorry but I can't go a day without sinning. And, I also PRAY all the time. MY BAD. Perfection is just not in my repitoire like some other folks. I guess its just useless babble to God ..................... NOT! Thank God he loves sinners like me.