Sushi

Cause that would make sense, GT.

(emphasis mine)This goes back to my post about language and how it can affect behavior. This type of language is typically used in business, as opposed to (I think) in a "Christian Ministry". For example, I happen to work for a Tier 1 supplier to General Motors. Now, as to the Tier One prophets. I don't know if Tier One is the highest or lowest level of prophet. For the sake of argument, let's say it's the highest. Wouldn't this then mean, there are other levels, Tier 2, 3.....etc.? Does this mean people are 'working' on getting their prophet 'certification'? What would the test look like? Is it a pass/fail? Or is 90-100 an A, and so on down the line? Someone mentioned the old test (as in the Old Testament) for a prophet was pass/fail. Not only was it pass/fail, the penalty for failure was rather stiff. If memory serves, death was your grade. This was done so you didn't have to bring your report card back to your parents and have them sign off on it.

I always stay home on New Year's eve, Fourth Of July and Labor Day. Those are when all the amateurs are out.

I would post my recipe here, but it's hard enough to get Shell to visit as it is.

Perhaps, more properly, CESI (Christian Educational Services Investigation).

CSI:Indianapolis, maybe?

You say that as if it's a bad thing, Veggie Tale.

Is that there is NO secret.

George Santayana, WB. From Wikipedia: George Santayana (December 16, 1863, Madrid – September 26, 1952, Rome), was a philosopher, essayist, poet, and novelist. A lifelong Spanish citizen, Santayana was raised and educated in the United States, invariably wrote in English, and is considered an American man of letters. He is perhaps best known for the oft-quoted remark, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it," from Reason in Common Sense, the first volume of his The Life of Reason Or within the parameters of how to live your life, just read my signature.

Dangit, George got here before I did.

Abraham Lincoln once stated (perhaps on more than one occasion ): History is agreed upon set of lies. (edited to attribute correctly)

For those who were able to get through the first part, now comes, Part II

Sounds to me, FreeSoul, you could use a laugh. WARNING, WARNING, WILL ROBINSON For those who possess little to no sense of humor, please do NOT watch the posted video. It contains absolutely filthy language, refers to evolution, and why Christians shouldn't interpret the Old Testament. That being said, for your consideration........... HERE! :blink:

Yup, if it don't make you break a sweat, it's not worth it.

POSTED BY ABIGAIL - WHO ONCE AGAIN FORGOT TO LOG SUSHI OUT FIRST Lets take this a step further and examine where the concept of fellowships ala TWI/CES really comes from, are they even biblical? In the Old Testament days, as is still practiced among Jewish people today (and please lets not get into the whole 13th tribe thing, because DNA or no DNA it is what we practice and call ourselves), study was not done in large groups. Study was not even organized around a Rabbi or the temple. Oh sure, those who were training to become Rabbi's studied in large groups, but the general population did not. Study was personal, an individual and/or a family thing. The temple was for ceremony, it was the place rituals were performed. It was also a place to gather, but not for study, for worship. It was also a place to purchase goods needed for rituals and a place to visit with friends. Debate is highly valued among Jews. Today, there are books and books and books filled with Rabbinical debates that are centuries old and there is much that can be learned from them. Ultimately, that is what leads to a very personal relationship with God, the ability to learn through personal study and prayer - not by following leaders, who are merely men. Then comes Jesus' life, death, and ressurection and Christianity is born. In TWI, and I'm betting in CES, we were taught all about how the first century church worshipped in homes. Hence, TWI/CES' version of "fellowship". We were taught that this was God's design, God's plan - for the "called out" to worship and study in homes instead of temples. But does the Bible actually say anywhere that home fellowships were His design or will? Or does it simply tell us that is what the people did. Is it possible the people went the route of home fellowships because they had no other options? Think about it, they were a "new religion", they had no corner churches, no large buildings for large gatherings. Add to that, they were being persecuted, so a large gathering probably would have been a dangerous thing. Just because the Bible tells about how people gathered in small groups, in people's homes for a time, does not necessarily mean that was God's design, plan, or desire for the future. As I said earlier, I don't believe there is such a thing as a healthy fellowship ala TWI/CES style. However, there can be a great deal of personal growth through personal study. There can be a great deal of growth from gathering to discuss what one has learned, a healthy debate (as opposed to fighting). Then, there can be gatherings within the community to worship, to gather necessary things for the needy (as those who sent money and things on to Paul during the famine in Jersalem), to visit with friends, etc. Just some food for thought.

****Posted by Abigail********* Poor choice of words on my part, Foggy. The letter itself isn't the problem and should be discussed. The problem is the fighting back and forth over what was and wasn't said. If it's in the letter, it's not hard to quote it to support the position it was said. If it isn't in the letter, then there's a good chance its off topic and detracting from the bigger picture.

Rochester hardly qualifies as the "Greater NY metropolitan area", coup. <_<

"Been Caught Stealing" by Jane's Addiction? "Existential Blues" by Tom TBone Stankus

Mr. Strange, No, actually, I mean "French's". As to the other part of your post, you obviously didn't grow up in the Greater Noo Yawk metropolitan area. French's mustard was an aberration, as far as I was concerned. The first time I had it, I nearly spat it out. My lips have tasted such an atrocity in VERY limited fashion since. The ONLY time it happens is when, one of our kids decides they've had enough of a sandwich with it (they probably don't realize, their bodies are rejecting the mustard like a donor heart), and I just can't STAND to see food go to waste. Eventually, they'll see the error of their way and come over to the 'dark' side.

If the moderators see fit to move this to the kitchen, I have no problem with it. In the interest of not derailing another thread, I thought I would start this one. There are a number of things I will NOT substitute. As far as Miracle Whip goes (which should really not even make it to the grocery shelves, but who am I?), it is from the pit of hell. In any event, there are a number of things from the pit of hell. Miracle Whip happens to lead the legion. Other things from the pit of hell: Any type of butter substitute Yellow mustard 1% or less milk (esp. in coffee) Whole grain pasta when used in the making of mac and cheese Most store brand coffee

Wow, it took that long?

I went to group therapy for a few times after getting out. The term the psychiatrist who ran the sessions used the term, "High Demand Group". Seems rather apropos. It also 'covers a multitude of sins'. Can be used for any group be it, political, scientific, etc. I hope this helps move the discussion along,

Since it seems things are getting out of hand, thought this might lighten things up (maybe not, but at least I'm trying ) One of the primary signs of impending doom, imnsho, is the loss of one's sense of humor. You can print this out and send it to God's Total Quality Management Questionnaire by Harpreet Sandhu God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, (S)He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions: 1. How did you find out about your deity? __ Newspaper __ Bible __ Torah __ Koran __ Television __ Book of Mormon __ Divine Inspiration __ Dead Sea Scrolls __ My Mama Done Tol' Me __ Near Death Experience __ Near Life Experience __ National Public Radio __ Tabloid __ Burning Shrubbery __ Looked at Someone's "Book of Shadows" __ Other (specify): _____________ 2. Which model deity did you acquire? __ Jehovah __ Jesus __ Krishna __ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak] __ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak] __ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak] __ Allah __ Satan __ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature __ God 1.0a (Hairy Thunderer) __ God 1.0b (Cosmic Muffin) __ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god 3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes? __ Yes __ No If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. Please indicate all that apply: __ Not eternal __ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos __ Not omniscient __ Not omnipotent __ Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to all creations) __ Permits sex outside of marriage __ Prohibits sex outside of marriage __ Makes mistakes __ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people __ Makes or permits good things to happen to bad people __ Looks after life other than that on Earth __ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched __ Requires burnt offerings __ Requires virgin sacrifices 4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity? Please check all that apply. __ Indoctrinated by parents __ Needed a reason to live __ Indoctrinated by society __ Needed focus in whom to despise __ Needed focus in whom to love __ Imaginary friend grew up __ Hate to think for myself __ Wanted to meet girls/boys in church __ Fear of death __ Wanted to .... off parents __ Wanted to please parents __ Needed a day away from school or work __ Desperate need for certainty __ Like organ music __ Need to feel morally superior __ Thought Jerry Falwell was cool __ Thought there had to be something other than Jerry Falwell __ @#%$ was falling out of the sky __ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it 5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? Please check all that apply. __ Baal __ The Almighty Dollar __ Left Wing Liberalism __ The Radical Right __ Amon Ra __ Beelzebub __ Bill Gates __ Barney The Big Purple Dinosaur __ The Great Spirit __ The Great Pumpkin __ The Sun __ The Moon __ The Force __ Cindy Crawford __ Elvis __ A burning shrub __ Psychiatry __ Other: ________________ 6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply. __ Tarot __ Lottery __ Astrology __ Television __ Computers __ Fortune cookies __ Ann Landers __ Psychic Friends Network __ Dianetics __ Palmistry __ Playboy and/or Playgirl __ Self-help books __ Sex, drugs, and rock & roll __ Biorhythms __ Alcohol __ Marijuana __ Bill Clinton __ Tea Leaves __ EST __ Amway __ CompuServe __ MSN __ AOL __ Mantras __ Jimmy Swaggert __ Crystals __ Human sacrifice __ Pyramids __ Wandering around a desert __ Insurance policies __ Burning shrubbery __ Barney T.B.P.D. __ Barney Fife __ Other:_____________________ __ None 7. God reputedly employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve a balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer? Circle one below: a. More Divine Intervention b. Less Divine Intervention c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right d. Don't know. e. What's Divine Intervention? 8. God also reputedly attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5 your opinion of the handling of the following (1 =unsatisfactory, 5 = excellent): a. Disasters: 1 2 3 4 5 flood 1 2 3 4 5 famine 1 2 3 4 5 earthquake 1 2 3 4 5 war & holocausts 1 2 3 4 5 pestilence 1 2 3 4 5 plague 1 2 3 4 5 Spam 1 2 3 4 5 AOL b. Miracles: 1 2 3 4 5 rescues 1 2 3 4 5 spontaneous remissions 1 2 3 4 5 stars hovering over tiny towns & previously unknown hamlets 1 2 3 4 5 crying statues 1 2 3 4 5 water changing to wine 1 2 3 4 5 walking on water 1 2 3 4 5 coincidence of any sort 1 2 3 4 5 getting any sex whatsoever 9. From time to time God reputedly makes available the names and addresses of Her/His followers and devotees to selected reputedly divine personages who provide quality services and perform intercessions in His behalf. Are you interested in a compilation of listed offerings? __ Yes, please deluge me with religious zealots for the benefit of my own mortal soul __ No, I do not wish to be inundated by religious fanatics clamouring for my money 10. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? (Attach an additional sheet if necessary.) Hope this helps.

*****POSTED BY ABIGAIL***** SORRY I have been thinking about some of the differences between your more main stream churches and groups like TWI and CES. Now, I could be wrong on some of this, because I never have spent much time with a main stream church and all I know of CES is what I've read here. One of the draws, for me anyway, to TWI was the notion that they could explain the Bible to me in a way that made sense. That they were basically a research ministry with little doctrinal error and with the meekness to correct doctrinal error when they found it. However, knowing what I know now, I would have to say groups like CES and TWI do have doctrinal error and correcting that error is not so easy. Point being, despite the claims, CES and TWI are not necessarily more "perfected" than the Methodists or Baptists or Catholics when it comes to doctrine, nor are they likely to ever be so. The reason for this is, any way you cut it, you still have people involved, Where there are people there will be mistakes, there will be "private interpretation". Now, the drawback to groups like TWI and CES that does not exist in many (note I did not say all) mainstream churches. The trap. Your average churchgoer respects the minister or priest (the leadership). They expect them to have a better knowledge and understanding of the Bible than the average joe has. Many would even expect to receive good advice or counsel from them, should they be in need of it. BUT, what they do not expect, what they would not likely even tolerate, is for their minister, priest, pastor, to come into their homes and micromanage their lives. They would not tolerate being loudly reproved (read humiliated) if their home was not clean enough, for having a mortgage, if their kids were not quiet and obedient enough, etc. Likewise, they are free to have friends and family from outside the church. They may disagree with some of the things their friends and family believe, or the choices they make, etc., but they love them and spend time with them. In other words, they are not isolated from people with different world views and beliefs. However, with TWI and some of its spinoffs, for some reason, we tolerated the micro management, we allowed ourselves to become isolated and cut off from our families and our friends who were outside the group. [bTW, this is the classic m.o. for an abusive situation be it with a spouse, a family member, a religious organization, etc.]. When this set up takes place, we have placed ourselves in a very vulnerable position. The cherry on the ice-cream is, unlike most mainstream denominations, you are basically not allowed to disagree with your leadership. You are at a serious disadvantage here. If you dare to disagree and speak up, you face the very real possibility of being marked and avoided. [something most mainstream denominations don't practice]. If you are marked and avoided, you are truly on your own, because you have no one left to turn to. Your other option is to disagree silently and pray no one catches on. However, this usually requires you to sell yourself out, to take actions that make it difficult for you to look yourself in the mirror. Or conversely, to not act when you believe you should. Over time, that too takes a huge toll on the individual. It is a trap. It is the trap which has ultimately lead to the pain so many of us at the cafe have endured.