I Love Bagpipes

SunnyFla....I still consider myself new to GSC. I left TWI October, 2005, after 28 years in. I am possibly one of the least confontational posters on GSC. (Still timid about it...) What you wrote in reference to CW's above post being a perfect example of bitterness and being teed off is not the same response I read from CW. I read a heartfelt response to your opinion, a response by someone simply sharing her viewpoint. However your final response seems the example of immature dialogue. Just my opinion. I am not trying to pick a "fight." I really don't like to argue or fight. :blink: Darn it...trying to put this quote with what I just posted..... grrr at my puter skils.

Amazing Grace...I pray for a better solution. However it turns out I pray your toys be resupplied even better than before. :) :) :) MizMarple.....beautiful....beautiful...What a picture you paint!!

Incident (I hope it doesn't freak you out and send you screaming into the night... :blink: There is a purpose behind this madness I share. ;) I appreciate any of you taking time to read this. :) ): It was December, 1995(?). I had suffered 2 bouts of pneumonia since the end of September. The asthma was full blown...nothing was working. The attacks would assault randomly, sometimes 4 times per day. It was midnight. I sat naked on the side of my bed soaked in sweat and chills. My chest felt as if an elephant sat upon it; my lungs were filled with fluid. The epinephrine wasn't working; the alubterol in the nebulizer wasn't working; the steroids hadn't worked; the antibiotics hadn't worked; the other drugs and the foods and homeopathy and vitamins were not working. I could hardly think....the only thoughts were of death...a deep longing to die: "Why GOD??? Why can't I just stop breathing!!!!!!! Why does my body hang on????? Why doesn't my body respond???!!! Am I that detestable???!!!" I felt such deep self hatred and violation. I felt so very trapped. At midnight I called my current medical pratitioner; she was on vacation in Nevada. She answered the phone. I felt some relief; maybe God had not totally deserted me. She gently spoke with me. I refused to go AGAIN to the hospital for the same round of treatments that were not working. On the phone line she sat with me....quietly listening to my gasps for breath life. Then she said, "Carol....quit fighting it. Can you quit fighting it?" I thought, "But then I am giving in....that's not right. How can I give in?" She continued, "Carol...can you embrace the attack? I know that sounds strange...but just try to embrace it. I will be right here if you need me. I am going to pray after we hang up and send as much love your way as I can. Embrace it...don't fight it love." We hung up...and I began to "embrace" (the best I knew how) the assault upon my body. I closed my eyes and in my mind and heart fell in with the heaves and violence taking place in my body. I felt almost as if I were dreaming. I then had a "vision", if you will. I was cradling an infant sized "blob" of black viscous goo. I felt I should let it go, but I had affection for it. I felt it was part of my identity. So I held it debating what to do with it. I decided I couldn't kill it. I placed it in a glass aquarium and watched it ooze around. Then suddenly it wildly attacked the side of the glass. But it couldn't get out. It was like it had suction cups all over it and was violently trying to escape. I got out a pistol and shot it. It lay lifeless on the bottom of the aquarium with the shattered glass around it. I felt sadness...and at the same time a sense of relief. End of "vision." The attack changed at that moment becoming less violent, but didn't end for another hour. I no longer had the deep fear. Was the "blob" a devil spirit? Was it part of the self hatred? I don't know. I continued to suffer with asthma for three more years, but I know that once I embraced it...my "relationship" with this dis-ease that inhabited my body and controlled so much of my life changed. It was no longer a terrorist, though neither was it a friend. My last attack (as stated in an earlier post) was January, 1999. End of incident. So what does this have to do with "How do you change your mind"? It has taken me years, (and I am still on this journey), but I learned/am learning to embrace the dark emotions in my soul....to not view my "dark side" as an enemy. I still cannot put into words exactly what it is that I have learned/am learning in this area. And to some it may sound VERY strange...and even "devilish" or unrenewed. But it has opened my heart and life to much healing...physically and emotionally. The aforementioned incident left a deep impact upon my soul. So...all that to share the following excerpt I read this morning from Cry of the Soul. This excerpt has helped put words to my thoughts/feelings about learning to embrace and not fear the dark emotions with which I (and I assume everyone) grapples. Excerpt from the chapter "The Goodness of God: From Suffering to Glory": "We cautioned earlier against assuming we can directly alter our emotions. It has not been our goal to provide a guide for conquering unwanted emotions. Effort to "change" troubling emotions often involves an effort to "master" God through attempts to escape the heartache of the Fall. The goal of avoiding heartache is both impossible and undesirable. It is impossible because we live in a fallen world and are fundamentally flawed beings--as Genesis 3, one of the foundational passages of the Bible, teaches. Perfection is reserved for heaven; while we live, we will be both the vehicles and the recipients of unrighteous emotions. This is not a warrant to justify our internal ugliness, but it clears the air of any overly optimistic assessment of human ability. The goal to avoid anguish is undesirable because our dark emotions have a redemptive side (although this fact does not make them any less painful). Though tainted in our expression of them, they nonetheless reflect the character of God. They have the power to vocalize our deepest cry--and when that cry is uttered before God, our hearts are exposed and transformed as we glimpse His heart for us." This excerpt may sound contradictory to my previous posts...but to me it compliments this journey of discovery keeping it in perspective. "And that's all I have to say about tha-at," in my best Forrest Gump imitation. At least for now..... :)

dm and tb........

Shed some tears reading this thread. I thought of another thread in the Open Form: "A Shout Out to My Peeps." I have fallen in love with some of the folks here are GSC. People have contacted me individually and have helped me and my husband. They didn't HAVE to do that. To me GSC is a community...in cypber world yes; but a very real community with very real people living very real lives. Some threads I choose not to view....I am not one these days to get into debates. Yet even the threads that have a "nasty" tone have a refreshing side. As Ex10 once stated to me regarding TWI, "The silence has been deafening....no?" I never want to live that "hush" again. It pricks my soul deeply. So I view the "fights" not as fights...but as dialogue...sometimes heated. And I rejoice in that freedom. I posted this poem on the "Shout Out to My Peeps" thread...and want to post it here. I'm thankful for each person that posts on GSC. Every person has a voice...... CYBER FRIENDS If we ever meet face to face along our journey here.. I will embrace you and behold your eyes Your heartbeat I'll take time to hear... Its beauty and its essence. I will relish and I will savor the pleasure of your presence. I will grasp your hand and share with you my treasured places: The woods, The hills, The ripple of the creek; Wild ponies, Rocks and dunes, And dancing in the street.... The welcome breeze upon our faces, Songs of birds and waves... The magnificent majesty And beauty of nature's graces. My friend I trust you, I reverence who you are. Please know full well That you are valued... And at anytime, anyplace, anywhere You hold a special recess and honored seat within my heart. ILBCW

So well stated tbone!! Moi being so fresh out of TWI...this speaks volumes. I so enjoy meeting people and enjoy conversation. It's stimulating..the exchange of ideas and possibilities. To be able to FEEL free to express (and discover) my OWN ideas is something I'm growing into. GSC is a forum for me to grow in that discovery/expression. I avoided How To Win Friends And Influence People for two decades. I finally read it about 8 or so years ago. Read it a couple times actually. My motivation? I wanted to become my own best friend. And actually I loved the book...great bio sketches...one thing I enjoy about Carnegie....all those real life stories. YW! And thank you dear Belle...for being here when I need/ed you! Another big freedom factor upon leaving TWI!! "It's okay to not have all the answers.."

:) That's beautiful Pond Dittos Krys!!! Cool...you play piano and cook? Will you come live with moi? You can play ALL day long!!!! :)

He is a doll Dove!! And my what talent...driving vans and playing ball! What is his name? (Gone out to play now!)

Okay..it is the next month. What you got now? I make music with little people. Red Grammar is one of my favorite children's artists. Puts on a fabulous concert getting all the adults moving too. Even has folks come on stage and sing with him. Though this song is not a birthday song, I sing it as such. Couldn't easily find the lyrics....so excuse any typos. :) THE ABC's OF YOU If I wrote down all my feelings for you I'd probably fill up an ocean or two So in the end I decided to List the ABC's of You. I think you're... A-1, Grade A, beloved and beautiful Capable, caring, delightful, dependable, Enjoyable, excellent, fascinating, fabulous, A gift, a gem, genuinely generous, Honest, highgrade, impressive and interesting, A jewel, a jackpot, kindhearted, and a king, Laudable, likeable, marvelous, magnificent, Naturally nice.... One of a kind, pleasing, priceless, Queenlike in quality, rare in radiance, Scintillating, splendid, superb, sensational, Trustworthy, talented, tender and tasteful, Unique, unprecendented, very, very valuable, Worthy, welcome, Xtraordinary, Xceptional, Yes! Yes! Yes! You! You! You! You're one in a zillion!!!!!!!!

Sure thing Pond..print away. You may want to take a gander at the book as well. It is full of depth and a different perspective on emotions....different from other books I have read. Geez.....I hope I never get bitten by the fire ant.!!!

Get your engines ready!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Freud. Dazed and speechless here. I just left TWI 6 months ago after 28 years in. Very mixed emotions here. Initial response...Has he gotten help? Maybe there is some hope for the man. Many great responses here. Sowap51...thanks.

Recent circumstances in my life have impacted me on how God is unpredictable...and the lengths He will go to grab my heart. I read the following excerpt this morning. I walk away with, "Keep asking the hard questions." I hope one of my dearest GSC friends gives it a read. From Cry of the Soul by Allender & Longman Chapter 16: "The Mystery of God" Subtitle "The Unpredictability of God" God is unpredictable. He will neither permit us to know our own future nor allow us to foresee when the Lord returns. There isn't any moment of life that we can look at and say: "I know what God is going to do here, and how He is going to accomplish His will." But it is possible to observe, participate, and marvel in the mystery of God. A good friend attended one of my (Dan's) sexual abuse seminars. The material provoked a strong reaction in him, and he felt compelled to take a walk around the church struggling with the question, "Where are You, God--why don't You seem to do more for those who have been betrayed and violated?" He was also battlling with loneliness. He wanted God to engage him, comfort him, and draw him into His love. As he sat there, he noticed a small bird only a few feet away. He thought to himself with good humor and slight cynicism, "I wonder---is this bird perhaps an agent of God, sent to encourage my heart?" He recalled Dr. Doolittle talking to the animals. He thought about Elijah being nourished by the birds. He looked away. A moment later he noticed that the bird was moving slowly toward him. To his utter astonishment, it hopped onto his hand. He was stunned. He felt oddly alive, as if he were in the presence of an act of God. In an instant he blinked, and the bird defecated on his hand and then flew away. It left a large splotch of whitish liquid all over his hand. At that very moment, he recalled, he felt as if his other hand suddenly caught on fire. He looked at it and saw that it was coverd by a mass of red ants. In pain, he began wiping away the ants with his free hand. After knocking most of the ants off himself, he noticed that his hand was swollen, his shirt was now covered with bird excrement, and his body was wet with sweat. He sat there on the pylon, stupefied. He had longed for God's comfort, but what he had just experienced felt like an assault of nature orchestrated by God. What gives? he wondered. He sat for a time and then began to laugh. "I laughed less at the event," he later told me, "and more at the irony of how God dealt with my demands. I thought I wanted comfort. What I really wanted, however, was not so much His comfort but His acknowledgment that I am a little boy who needs to be taken care of, not a man who has the courage to face life. Thankfully, God responded to what I deeply desire--to be respected and honored--rather than to what I thought I wanted. In an odd sense, I felt invigorated to move back into life." Part of the mystery of God is His disruptive intrusion to provide us with what we desperately desire, no what we think we require. He does so by the use of paradox: He draws us to darkness and, in the midst of what appears awful, He shows something of His awe-full, bright goodness. God's methods are indeed mysterious. He is the eternal artist who orchestrates horizontal circumstances to provoke us to ask hard questions about Him. And, oddly, those questions invite us to know and trust Him with a depth unavailable without asking those questions.

I've been reading you posts on this subject and have had it in my thoughts and prayers. I had a neighbor who was diagnosed with Lymes too late. Sadly he lost his life. My heart goes out to you guys. I also had a doctor who helped turned the course for my health. Different circumstances, but he was in a 10-year court battle. He continued to practice through that time...and he won. Patients wrote letters, set up a fund, and testified. Not only did he win, but that victory had an impact on our entire state for integrative doctors. He partially retired after that 10 years and moved to a different state. It wore him out. But he still comes back to our state 2 times a month to see his patients. It sounds like your doc is in good hands. I am confident he will win...and it won't take a freaking 10 years! Keep up the GREAT work Shaz! And never quit dreaming.

Where to post? I default to the TWI forum. Yesterday talking with a friend who also recently left TWI, we discussed free will and love. I thought of this poem. I wrote it years and years ago, probably about 25 years ago. Whew!!!! The Willing Heart My entire soul vibrates with the life of Christ within, Life.... All powerful, All vivacious, All emcompassing, with every vibrant hue. Like a precious gem sparkling and glowing with Light's reflection, I am the reflection of the Giver of Light, The Giver of Life, The Giver of Love. Within every cell of my being He fills. Within every cell He is always eager to teach me; Ever ready and waiting for my heart to be willing. To Him the willing heart is without price; For within that heart He is able to give and from that heart receive. In His great love He gave me freedom of will and the liberty to choose. He doesn't force or coerece; but rather, He coaxes with a tender embrace, Encourages with a loving hand; He entreats and patietly awaits my decison. What great joy must fill the Father's heart when His man believes by the free choosing of his will. What love beyond must be within Him.... and thus within me. I simply need to choose to believe. For within me is the precious gem sparkling and glowing with the Giver of Light's reflection.

Thanks Partiot and Ex10. Thanks for your prayers and practical help for our whole family. (Tears of joy.) Want the meeting in the sky be grand!?!

Seeing I was in 28 years and so recently left this subject is still raw for me. The household teaching is a real gripper that keeps folks who sincerely want to do the right thing bound and entrapped....so deeply entrapped. The last 4 years I was in I had concluded in my own heart that the household teaching wasn't quite right, but could not see the clear and manipulative evil of it until a couple months out. As folks here can relate, it was so scarey to leave. And looking back, it seems "silly," but it is not silly. Folks lives are manipulated and people loose touch with their own core. WD, thanks for the POP post. I have always avoided reading that piece of garbage...but maybe now...I MIGHT take the time to read it. I've never been a CG fan. :blink: :)

Hmmmm...not quite sure what your trying to tell me CM. "Trying the reigns".... But perhaps your next post (after the one quoted)...is what you are trying to tell me. You stated "whatever was good I figure it would stick with me." That is a good one for me to chew on. :) Tbone.... I enjoyed the excerpts. I did a tiny etymology work on the word "emotion" some time ago....all I recall now is that it meant "movement out." Thanks for the reminder. "The Bible has many instructions that help persons to cognitively structure their emotional life." That is put so well. I have a journaling exercise that helped change my emotional responses through cognitive work. But I did not necessarily use scripture...because many scriptures (at the time I was working diligently to change by self talk) brought up undesirable feelings and bodily responses. Maybe I will post the exercise at some point. When I read these excerpts I thought of a change I had to make in my self talk. I have suffered with bipolar disorder and thus very intense emotional states. In TWI, when I would hear people talk about "controlling your emotions" I would get VERY uptight, due to my emotional intensity. So..I changed the wording in my head to "regulate my emotions"; that I could do. My psychologist pointed out that I may not be able to "control" my emotions, but I do control my behaviour. That too helped, because I did not act out my moods. Now I have grown more. The bipolar is not an issue. And I have learned I actually can control some of my emotions....but other times I can't. And that is okay. I can listen. I can monitor. I can adjust. And scripture has been a MAJOR player in that. Can we have time to study before the pop quiz??

Here is the poem dearest Shellon... :) (with a note for dear Dooj :) ) I really used to not like email; it was another interruption in my life. Plus my computer was very slow. Folks would get irritated at me (understandably). So I penned a poem. And yes I used to only check my email every two weeks. Faster computer now...so I actually check almost every day. Ode to Email There was a middle-aged lady who lived in a house. Her functions were many, and she wasn't a souse. She was secretary, cook, and cab driver too, Activities coordinator, home maintenance guru, Doctor and nurse and janitorial clerk, Counselor, teacher, and overseer of work, To name a few of the functions for which she stayed perk. Then to add to her list.. Computers popped up like a pimple. "Upgrade! Upgrade! It makes your life simple!" "But beware of virusues...you need that program too!" "And identity theft...so your name is who?" "You have too much spam? Pay more and it's through!" First there was junk mail to take up my time.. And now more info to boggle my mind. So this middle-aged woman stepped back and breathed deep, "It is time to make simple this communication heap." She decide yes her email to keep.. But she made her list smaller.... And checked it only once every two weeks. So if her attention you immediately need.. Please call her by phone to get sooner heed. Hey Dooj...should we make a book out of this one? heee

Oh my! :blink: An hour or so after posting I realized some may take the following quote with my italicized inserts the wrong way. I am not meaning that TWI is Israel or that GSCers are Palestinians! (After all I have been/am both.) If my memory serves me correctly, the context of this sentence is after the Israeli's had massacred some Palestinians, Israel promoted their enlightened occupation (based on murder) and tried to shut the mouths of the Palestinians. So that is the comparison.... Apologies if I offended anyone in this regard. :unsure:

Like you stated Patriot...it was a process...one thing and then another. Really for me it was at the least a 10 year process, intensifying after 5 years, and finally manifesting in another 5. Specifically there was a point where I was pricked to my soul. It was when I read the following excerpt from the book From Beirut to Jerusalem. The context is in light of how modern day Israel dealt with the Holocaust until the Holocaust was resurrected in 1961 at the trial of the Nazi war criminal Adolf Otto Eichmann. "..In those day we barely learned about the Holocaust in school. The feeling, the whole atmosphere, was that the future must triumph over the past. All of us, parents & kids, tried to cover up what had happened." Another quote from the same book: "And so...the play went on...Israeli's (TWI) talking to the world about their 'enlightened' occupation, and then doing anything they had to do, behind closed doors, to keep the Palestinians (GSCers) quiet." OMG, did those words hurt me. What was in my mind? "How can I face my children later when they find out the facts/truth about TWI?" That got me on the road to very serious and real life changes regarding TWI. And yet I stayed in TWI about 2 more years after that soul pierce. Geez..now my mind is rolling with other incidents....but I'll stop here.

chuckle.... Beautiful Rascal...absolutely beautiful. And the picture you painted for us...beautiful too: "...they were talking so sweetly..." Brought to mind Monty Robert's story, The Man Who Listens to Horses. Big congrats to all the family at the home of dear Rascal.

It's hard for me to figure the forum for this. For now, when I am not sure what forum to use to start a thread, I default to "About the Way." I'm sure this is due to the continued decompression process. Decompress means "to decrease the pressure on, esp. gradually; to return (a diver, etc.) to a condition of normal atmospheric pressure." What an apt word (decompress) someone used in a thread to describe the exit process from TWI. Anyway....this is a long post. Below is an excerpt from a book I have been reading. This excerpt has ministered to me over an over the past 8 days. I've read and reread it. Self hatred and shame ran deep in me for DECADES. What freedom to learn to love myself..in God's tremendous and undying love and mercy. The friends (new and renewed) here at GSC and elsewhere since leaving TWI, have ministered to my soul...to the very depths. The exposing of who I am has been healing and cleansing...and I know there is more to come. Thank you. Because I love you, I desire to share this with you. BTW, Ex10 recommended this book to me. :wub: Thank you dear Ex... From the book The Cry of the Soul: How Our Emotions Reveal Our Deepest Questions About God, by Dr. Dan B. Alexander & Dr. Tremper Longman III. Chapter 15: "The Redemptive Power of Shame" .....Subtitle: "Freedom in Gratitude: The Wonder of Worship": "'Remember, O Lord, your great mercy and love, for they are from of old. Remember not the sins of my youth and my rebellious ways; according to your love remember me, for you are good, O Lord. '(Psalm 25:6 -7 ) As sorrow opens our hearts to redemptive desire, it halts our long fall into destructive self-absorption. Hope in our Advocate opens hearts to confidence, and confidence stops the fearful flight of shame. Gratitude softens the self-hatred of shame. The violence of shame prefers to annihilate the self rather than allow it to live in hellish loneliness. It is a soul suicide that defends the last thread of dignity behind a roar of rage. Hatred is like a huge, muscle-bound bully that refuses to allow anyone to get near the stricken, bloodied soul. The bully is cruel, offensive, and antagonistic. He compels others to flee or fight. Either response works to justify more hatred. It is a vicious defense that refuses to cry out for an advocate who will redeem. The only path through this ferocious defense is a goodness that neither attacks the bully nor fears him. Instead, it offers the bully what he really desires: forgiveness and reconciliation. This is how gratitude softens the self-hatred of shame. Nearly three decades ago, Tremper offered a bully a taste of redemption. Tremper and I first met in a music class in eighth grade. I was a bully. A number of years of sexual abuse at the hands of a Scout master and by camp counselors at a boys' camp had strengthened a deep vein of rage and hatred in me. During the music class, Tremper tapped me on the shoulder to ask if he could borrow a comb. I was a mean kid. I grabbed him by the shirt and hauled him out of his desk. Tremper's response was to laugh. Never in my young life had I experienced something so disconcerting. I was a large, aggressive football player with a bad reputation who used intimidation to hide a deep hatred for myself and an utter terror about relating to others. But Tremper laughed--a guileless, kind, contempt-free laugh. It melted me instantaneously. As far as I was concerned, from that point on we were best friends. Our friendship became the means by which God cornered me long enough for me to hear and respond to the gospel. Gratitude arises in a heart that is stunned by the lover's pursuit in spite of countless reasons to attack or withdraw in disgust. As Paul said, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance (Romans 2:4). Gratitude arises the instant that grace is received; it is a praise of thanksgiving that is full of wonder and irony. How could someone choose me when my heart is so ugly and hard? It makes no sense. It violates my expectations, yet it arouses the deepest chords of desire. Shame has no power in a heart that is full of thanksgiving. Hatred stands no chance in a heart that sings with innocent desire, humble sorrow, solid hope, and grateful praise to God's goodness. David, the writer of so many psalms, gives us a wild picture of worship that is free from shame. As David returned the Ark of the Covenant -- a symbol of the presence of God -- to its proper place among the people of God, he danced, praised, and worshiped God with a heart that was flooded with joy in being chosen to be in the presence of God: 'David wearing a linen ephod, danced before the Lord with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets. As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw king David leaping and dancing befere the Lord, she despised him in her heart... When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any bulgar fellow would!" David said to Michal, "It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord's people Israel--I will celebrate before the Lord. I will become even more undiginified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor. "' (2 Samuel 6:14-16, 20-22) Michal tried to shame David by pointing out that even the poorest and least of all the people--slave girls--saw his nakedness and passionate worship. He responded by recalling the honor of being chosen by God to rule, to celebrate. He faced the likelihood of even bearing greater shame, but the spectre of shame was not a terror in a heart that rejoiced in worship. Grateful worship begins with our acknowledgment of God's untold goodness in pouring out His mercy and remembering us in His kindness, not in our sin. A grateful heart has no need to engage in self-destruction through violent self-hatred. Self-hatred tries to annihilate what it assumes is the cause of shame -- the self. Worship acknowledges that the cause of shame--idolatry--has been forgiven. Why would we turn on ourselves (or others) in vicious hatred when God's goodness reigns over us like a glorious rainbow? As worship confirms for us that we are forgiven, we are freed from the fear of exposure. Worship, therefore, leads to freedom. It also leads to service, as we become free to join God in putting evil to shame." End of excerpt

And WD...remember me too! Thank ee!

I am rambling some here. These are thoughts and questions more than answers. And there is more behind what I am posting here...but I don't want to drag the post too long. I have contemplated this for a couple years...and am still not settled. I have been learning to trust my heart...endeavoring to break thru TWI conditioning. Then I think maybe it is not so much as trust my heart, as to listen to my heart to know what is going on inside. My heart can be deceived, but at the same time, somehow I can learn to hear and know what to trust. Rambling I know...please excuse me. I'd appreciate any thoughts...if you are so led. Hope this isn't deemed too much off topic. If so....apologies. Okay...here are some thoughts on the deceitful heart, Jer.17:9. (All scriptures are from the Amplified or KJV (I think).) Jer. 17:9-10 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]? I the Lord search the mind, I try the heart, even to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings." another translation is: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can undersatnd it?" In Strong's the word deceitful is not the typical word used for deceitful (deception, dishonesty, treachary). Deceitful from Jer. 17 :9 is translated crooked and polluted other places and is defined: "deceitful; rough, bumpy; footprint". These two places are the two other usages of "deceitful" from Jer. 17:9. Hos. 6:8: "Gilead is a city of evildoers: it is tracked with bloody [footprints]" Is. 40:4: "...the crooked and uneven shall be made straight and level, and the rough places a plain." "Beyond cure" is used when David's child by Bathsheba was sick and died. (II Sam, 12:15) If the heart is deceitful how is it that that deceitful heart believes unto righteousness? (Rom 10:10) If it is beyond cure, what is the key to our wholeness? (Prov. 17:22: "a merry heart worketh an excellent cure", Ps. 51:10: "Create in my a clean heart oh God, and renew a right, persevering, and steadfast spirit within me.") Now for the really "odd" thoughts about this. PLEASE these are simply thoughts. And I am going to simply copy them from a journal entry. "The Word doesn't say believe in thy mind. It says believe in thy heart. What is the difference between mind and soul and heart? I think of layers. The heart is like the innermost point, the core of the layers. The soul of the flesh is in the blood. The blood carries all that cellular information..and the blood goes through the heart. What is the connection between the physical heart, the blood, the brain, the mind, the thoughts? I wonder if that connection is beyond our comprehension...like quarks and strings....like the vastness of the universe. The more we learn about how cells work the more we see a universe within that cell. Maybe the word "deceitful" in Jer. 17:9 alludes more to "complexity, depth". The heart is more complex above all else...the universe, the cellular make up of living things, etc. Another thought: Blood is rejuvenated in the heart. The blood of Jesus Christ washes us clean...he had pure blood. The natural heart is beyond cure, but the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses that heart..creates a new heart." Okay..so this may just be a bunch of bs....if so...well that's what it is!!