I Love Bagpipes

As of one year ago, Jim was in Charlotte and Paula in eastern NC. Jim was still in TWI and Paula was out. I'm 90% sure they are divorced. They separated probably sometime around 2004(?).

Next post continued: Another journal excerpt a couple weeks later: "...I've thought back 25 years ago about what I wanted then. At that time I wanted to serve God by serving people. ..... Has TWI become self serving? What does that mean, self-serving? ...The Synonym Finder lists 'self indulgence, egotism, self interests, self aggrandizement, self seeking' and more. ....Purpose.... defines it "Serve to get others to like us or to be admired, or to achieve our own goals. That is manipulation, not ministry. The whole time we're really thinking about ourselves and how noble and wonderful we are.' Anyway, at one time I followed my heart. ...... Geez, can I go back that far to find my heart again? To continue to abide with TWI because of duty will not last for me. Am I being self serving by thinking about leaving? Am I being too critical? Can I start being myself not to please others? Do I even know who I am anymore? I DON'T KNOW MY PLACE GOD!!! I feel like I will be stuck here forever. .....Follow my passion? Yet I no longer have passion. Think and listen. What do I have passion about?......" End journal excerpts. Since officially leaving 11 months ago, I am finding authenticity again, passion again, my heart again. Is life easy? No. But it is rich; there is substance again. There is joy again. Has there been heartache? Yes; but I no longer have to hide it. I can honestly and openly share it...and it is tenderly cared for. I am alive again...as T-bone wrote in the thread about "Emotional Outbursts." If your lurking and pondering what to do, take heed to your heart. Hmmm...that old song by Brian Bliss (?) comes to mind: "Somewhere along the line you lost your heart. Together we will find it and give it a brand new start. Somewhere along the way your heart slipped away like a thief in the night. We will find it. Bring it back to life. Love will make it right." (Or something like that.)

Dmiller you write a great story! I'm looking forward to the rest of it! Keep a going! BTW: I first spoke in tongues at Luthern Catholic Charismatic Church. What a combo!!

I've been perusing one of my journals the last couple days. I ran across a couple entries that brought this thread to mind. The following are excerpts from entries written 4 months before my official leave from TWI. It's been good to read and remember. So much has changed in my life the past 11 months, since leaving TWI. It humbles me greatly. I write these excerpts unedited, so I am making myself vulnerable here. Please be gentle if anyone decides to comment. I understand that some never experienced heartfelt love in TWI. I write these excerpts for anyone still involved with TWI who might be lurking and pondering what to do. God hears your heart; He wants your joy full. LISTEN to what He is working inside of you, and then take some steps. He will never leave you nor forsake you. One journal excerpt: "I've been very empty. .... Father, where has my joy gone? ... I remain so empty.... Father, PLEASE pull me up and out. I am beginning to feel desparate. My joy is not full. Is it because I continue to fellowship with TWI where my heart is not? I have no joy God. Where has it gone?...." A second entry excerpt a few days later: "I write tonight because of a chapter I just read in A Purpose Driven Life....... Father, I think this is my problem (or at least part of it). I don't have a body with which to fellowship. ..... TWI is no longer the new dynamic church. What turned me on at my first fellowship? It was the love of God. I felt so loved. I felt the presence of God. There was a chewy caramel center of God's heart. It was real. It was genuine. It was the life and pulse of that home fellowship. Remember those relationships? I could be myself. I could be honest. I could let down. I have not experienced that in years. It has been years and years and years and years. No wonder I feel lost. ..Purpose... states: 'In real fellowship people experience authenticity. ....genuine, heart-to-heart, sometimes gut-level sharing. ... They share their hurts, reveal their feelings, confess their failures, disclose their doubts, admit their fears, acknowledge their weaknesses, and ask for help and prayer. ...in some churches instead of an atmosphere of honesty and humility, there is pretending, role-playing, politicking, and superficial politeness between shallow conversation. People wear masks, keep their guard up, and act as if everything is rosey in their lives. These attitudes are the death of real fellowship.' This describes what I am experiencing. .... I have a gaping hole inside. ... No wonder I grieve. No wonder I feel like someone has died. I have died. My root is withered; but there is still a root. Father, there has to be an answer. But where do I look? God I desperately need your help to know what to do." Continued on next post......

It's a done deal.... Got my tickets!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be happy even if all we eat is borscht. Or we could do sack lunches and trade our goodies. But I prefer cheesecake.....especially with fresh blueberries.

Gosh T-bone....thanks for the poem. An apt description....and appropriate title. It made me think of the emotional rape and soul murder (suicide) stated on Ala's thread.

Heck no...it ain't selfish! It's probably what God wanted you to do all along! :) The hole.... I'm so familiar with that hole. I have vowed not to enter it...too deeply....again. God grant me the wisdom and power to keep that promise to myself. I still find myself going there from time to time, but at least I recognize it and can talk with a few trusted friends about it. The times this past year when I found myself lurking in that hole I'd get a mind pic: I'm in a deep, red dirt hole...like a well with no sides. But I'm not deep in the hole; I'm near the top. And there is this foot in a boot trying to push me down. The boot is on my head pushing. And I dig my fingers in the side of the dirt and say, "No damnit. I'm not going down. You can't push me down!!!" As long as I can stay near the top, I know I'll get out...and that effing boot has to effing leave!!!! As long as I'm near the top I can see the light. As long as I can see the light, I have hope. It's a comfort to know that we aren't alone...

What an apt description Grocho!!!

"Emotional rape" is a shocking term and one I have never thought of. I've had to sit with that term since reading it. It is hard to grasp. Yet as I've sat with it, it seems an apt description..with date rape being the analogy. Certain TWI practices/doctrines violated one's heart and essence, one's core as stated. This violation was allowed due to trust. When I read your term Ala, I was reminded of a term I ran across in recent months...."soul murder," where one's desire is killed, where one no longer has access to that which is deep within. In TWI, I was taught to cover up the deep crevices in my soul (that needed loving exposure), and often times that cover was with scripture. Is not that handling the word of God deceitfully?!? GRRRRRRR... and then I'd blame myself...time after time after time...over and over and over and over. After all I was the problem!!!! And I gladly accepted the full blame. It just plain old ticks me off!! As I stated on another thread: CURSE THAT DAMNABLE TWI PRACTICE/DOCTRINE OF NOT LISTENING TO OUR OWN HEARTS!!!

I'm sure glad God is God and has all this figured out. :) I'm enjoying reading folks insights/thoughts/examples/etc. T-bone, if it crosses your mind, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Cry of the Soul. Ex10 suggested that book to me. I guess eventually I'll get my fill of it, but I'm not satiated yet. I found the quote about photographic negatives I mentioned in an earlier post. Tom brought the quote to my mind when he stated, "Perhaps our emotions are mere shadows of God's realities." The following excerpt is written in the context of "The Surprising Glory of Anger" from Cry of the Soul. Excerpt: "Our dark emotions are stained emblems of the sure, solid image of God. Our ugliest, most destructive emotions reflect something of the glory of God; consequently, they reflect, however poorly and darkly, the glory and honor of our humanity. They're like a photographic negative. A negative is an inversion of what really exists. Everything that is black is a reflection of what will be light." Hmmm....IF this is a true, then the same would hold for our most beautiful and creative emotions...an inversion of what really exisits. We only have a glimpse...and a fallen glimpse at that. Yet that glimpse at times is rich and deep and powerful. This depth and dimension of God's ways (including emotions) higher than mine...so much that I cannot attain to it... reminds me of a song by Todd Agnew about eternity. In the song Todd states God will show us colors that we never knew existed. Maybe, maybe not....but He could. In a poetic sense, emotions give color to life. Since God is all light and in Him is no darkness at all...what we term God's dark emotions (God's jealousy and God's anger) are all light. Light crystallizes and makes images clear, defined, and distinct. God's anger and jealously help define and distinguish right from wrong, idolatry from true worship....yes?? Ramble, ramble, ramble......Why is it hard for me to grasp that God's nature includes jealousy and vengence and judgement? Is this concept foggy to me due to TWI's murky definition of sin, and (for that matter) culture's definition? Or is it foggy simply because of my finite human capacity and the way my own intellect gets in the way of simplicity? Is it foggy because of my experience with human jealously and anger and my experiential defintion of these terms? I'm sure my fogginess is a combination effect. Is this concept (God's "darker" side, which is really all light) more clear to other people outside TWI indoctrination? Pipes sits with that pondering look on her face...and then thinks.... "Oh, what the hell!! Don't make it so damn complicated!!!"

It dawned on me yesterday... I officially left TWI on 10/28/05. What a GREAT 1-year anniversary celebration for moi!! To be with old and new friends just a little over one year out. Hmm...and that one year ago...I was so scared and felt all alone. BIG THANKS all around. YEE HAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Likeaneagle... If you are inquiring about Abigail's 1 thru 10 list, it looks like it is from the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen.

T-bone... I so look forward to meeting you and Tonto in Texas! Gosh we could just sit around and peruse/exchange all these books we post/converse about. (Just kidding..:) ) Kit Sober stated: "'Figure of speech' is not a throwaway word, but an emphasis. Duh!" Big DUH on me!! Thanks for the reminder Kit. (A few other posts on this thread helped remind me of that too...FOS is truer than true.) As all this is being discussed, my initial question seems idiotic. I know it's not, because it was/is a genuine question that I was/still am some grappling with. It was just so far outside my concept of thinking. (Boy I really sound stupid now. :blink: ) The Way brain alarms sounded loudly as I dealved into that book. But I just keep reading...over and over....to see different angles. Read and ponder...and then decided to post. This fresh air sure feels nice.

I found info here and saved it under my favorites for study as time allows. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=4279&st=40

Another thought here....the questions posed below I would ponder. Was I willing/ready to meet this challenge? That's where understanding support comes in BIG TIME! Books were/have been some of my support...along with trusted people and professionals. From New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder: "Can we who are afflicted...with mental illness..accept our own frailty and imperfections? Are we prepared to meet rejection from others who don't understand our dilemma? Can we assume responsiblity for our disorder without using it as an excuse for our actions?..." For me these questions sort of hit both sides of the coin. There will be stigma and some rejection. Am I prepared for that without judging those who don't understand this tormenting hell that I would live through? At the same time, can I recognize if and when I use the illness as an excuse for my actions? For this...my psychologist was a great help. I'd journal and read it to him and he could help me ferret stuff out....recognize distorted thoughts....misperceptions...and patterns. And then I could implement strategies to help those. Anyway....for me...somehow this relates to the stigma.

((((Cool)))) Keep at it and stick with it. You know a little of where I've been. I'm cheering for you. Boy could I go on about this topic! And I could get on a soapbox....depending on my mood. (lol) (I haven't read all the posts on this thread.) A few years back I was talking with a husband about his wife's depression. He was angry with her because she just wouldn't "change" her mind. I told him, "Take off your glasses." He did. I said, "Now...see clearly." He looked at me puzzled....he just couldn't change his mind to see clearly!!! He got the point...sort of. As some of you know, I'm well acquainted with mental illness...as others on this forum. I'm well acquainted with chronic physical illness as well (as others on this forum) ..and it too can carry a stigma. For you readers out there: Pawtucket....I concur on Burn's book. (I worked every exercise in that handbook...and still apply them 4 years later. They help.) Tbone...haven't read that book, but I'm sure it adds to Amen's and Burn's. Right along side Burn's book I'd suggest Amen's Change Your Brain, Change Your Life and Childres's The Heartmath Soulution. Belle....another great book. As you know, I'm a Pert fan!!! :) Anyone with bipolar: I HIGHLY suggests Fawcett's New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder. This book was a mainstay for me for a couple years. I'd refer to it for self help and reminders often. And for women (and interested men): Women's Moods by Sichel and Driscoll. Something I have written on a 3 X 5 card (in light of living with any illness): "There will be days that my mood and energy are off kilter. On those days I can't expect as much from myself. This is not about my flawed character; it is about my biology. It is not an excuse to do less but it is loving myself with empathy, understanding, and wisdom."

From the book Cry of the Soul. The authors list 4 core convictions that structure their approach to the book. I'm only listing #4 with a few quotes. (The bold is mine for emphasis.) "(4) All emotions, including the darker ones, give us a glimpse of the character of God." This is the heart of this book. Far more important than the way in which emotions reveal the movement of the heart is the way in which our most dificult emotions -- anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame -- uniquely reveal something about the heart of God. Our positive emotions, of course --joy, peace, pleasure, and others -- have equal potential to teach us about the nature of God. But the darker struggles with emotion can point us to priceless glimpses of God's character through scriptural revelation of God's own emotions..... .....(God) reveals His heart through the multifaceted images in His Word that draw from our life experience..... ...Why such an apparently negative focus in this book on anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame? In part, it is an attempt to show these emotions as far more positive and necessary to life than we normally assume. But even more important, it is an effort to open our vision to perceive the unusual heart of God. God feels anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame-- and all these emotions reveal something about His character. Most gloriously, each one points to the scandalous wonder of the Cross." end of excerpt When I first read this last paragraph my TWI brain sounded off alarms...big time. Now, my hopefully new and improved brain, is considering this aspect of God's nature....in light of godly fear, godly jealousy, godly despair, godly contempt, and godly shame. Just chewing here...chewing. Stepping out into what before would have been "forbidden" territory.

Thanks for these meaty responses, all of them are thought provoking. I guess I'm endeavoring to come to terms with/understand stuff I suppressed to accomodate TWI "accuracy." Why do I even pose the question? Is it for the tickling of my ears? Is it to better understand my relationship with God and His relationship with His creation? I hope it is to better understand the relationship. I've thought about the question for months. Reading Hebrews the past few weeks I decided that whether or not GOD feels, I KNOW Jesus Christ felt and feels. Therefore whatever God is, He understands and must in one sense FEEL these things too. Perhaps the usage of emotions applied to God is literal and figurative? Literal in that His emotions are on a different plane than we can comprehend. Figurative in that it is a way he can relate to us on our plane of existance. (If that makes any sense at all.. :blink:.) Wordwolf, I love that modern day parable. You sure do a good job at arousing my tears....time and time again....with your responses. That ain't a bad thing...btw. :) I think emotions are more than physical responses. Yes there are physical responses and I am very aware regarding the knowledge of the "molecules of emotions." I don't think science will ever discover/uncover all that lies within the realm of soul. Our emotions as "shadows of God's realities". Wow, way cool. I recently read somewhere (if I find the quote I'll post it), that our emotions are like the negatives (in photography) of God's emtional make up.

Happy belated wishes Mr. Rum. Glad to hear you had an awesome day! :)

Thanks George and thanks Krys for clarifying. Like I said I ain't no scientist...but I know that Krys is. :) I read the article George but it still doesn't explain the leap from a wing to an arm. My usage of "crossover speices" is not from the lectures I've heard. It is my words from my limited scientific appalachain vocabulary. :) The lectures are presented by passionate evoluntionists professors....one from Duke and the other Cornell? And they had fascinating information and presentations regarding the primodial soup. Krys..I didn't know piffle stated that evolution could be in the first heaven and earth. Duh on me. I thought I had had an "orginal" thought with that. I guess at the time I thunk it, it had been so long from piffle that I'd forgotten. Funny thing is...when I shared that thought with Corps they responded that would not have been the case...that God doesn't think that way. Oh well!!!! I guess if it came to an "either - or", I'd choose evolution (from one kind/species/whatever into another) in the first earth........but evolution only within species/kind/whatever in the 2nd earth. I have no prob with adaptation within the same kind. I guess time will tell!!!! Thank ee. (I do look foward to "evolving" into my new bod. :) )

Thanks dmiller!!! :) I think of that song...hmm..."Eye of the Tiger"? Yay-aa T bone!!!

Congratulations Brian and fam!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not a scientist, just a science dabbler. Last year I took a couple home lecture science courses from The Teaching Company. (Great place...for lifelong learners. They search US universities/colleges for professors that are PASSIONATE about their subjects. Not expensive either...if you buy their stuff on sale.) My mind changed regarding the word "theory" and is as LG defines....its is not JUST a theory. In watching one of these series (biology) I was trying to understand evoluntionist's reasons for believing in cross species evolution(correct me if I am wrong on that). I followed much of the logic/experiments that have been performed; they were fascinating and my kids and I had interesting discussions. The breakdown for me came with the jump that because a bird's wing is similar in shape to a man's arm structure (as well as other living creatures' structures), that that "proves" we all evolved into different species. At that point the theory crashed...for my logic. God can use the same structure for different stuff because it works well. I also remember that the theory incorporated two theories for evolution. Again I don't recall the names of these theories (and am too lazy to look it up). One theory was that evolution can happen slowly over a long time and the other is that a jolt (so to speak) can cause evolution. Another thought I had some 10 years ago when reading on this subject.....folks can have all the cross-species evolution they want in the first heaven and earth. We know nothing about it and in the last 6000 years, ain't no species crossed over. :) BTW: Love the joke.

That's only like 30 minutes from us Suda!! Iffin we are in town....we will definitely make the time one of those evenings. (These days we sometimes don't know our T-giving plans until a week before.)

A thought about friends. I cannot tell you the number of times I'd get phone calls/letters/"infomation" about someone who left the "household." After too many of these and the years ticked by I'd think, "Well, there goes someone else I can't talk to." My heart would sink....one more time. PRAISE GOD, He is making sure I'm renewing some of those lost friendships!!! And, one reason I wouldn't bring "unbeliever" friends to fellowship during M & A is because I would think, "What if they decide not to stand? Then we can't be friends anymore." I'd start to question this logic but I'd been well trained to turn down the volume of love/reason and turn up the volume of justification. Finally the caged tiger couldn't stand it anymore. Great mind pic SkipC. Anyone hear..can you post a tiger pic? GRRRRRR GRRRRRRRRRRRR GRRRRRRRRRR GRRRRRRRRRRRR Great thread dancing. I won't hoard the posts. I'm just thinking about folks still in who might read this ... and as you stated: "I know it's not for everyone....yet." I understand that; I lurked for 1-1/2 to 2 years before the growl awoke the tiger to action.