allan w.

As for me, as I have posted before I walk the walk the best way I can and over the years can PERSONALLY testify of signs, miracles, wonders (big and small). They have ALWAYS been an enhancement of the 'written Word' as I understand it. Never at cross purposes with it. Helping my wifes 8 year old niece instantaneously awaken out of a DEEP coma she had been induced in because of meningococal meningitis is 'spiritual' enough for me. Unless you've got something similar to testify of Todd in your own 'spirit-filled' walk keep your self serving ramblings to yourself. And I'll bet 10 bucks to a hundred even if you are walking the ministering walk of CHRISTianity, for every carpark in front of a store story you've got , me and others I associate with have got half a dozen stories that would make you and Clay pee your pants with New Age envy. I am a simple kind of a guy (and always hope to be) with 'flashes' of sublime vernacular expressions at time. 'Esotric ramblings of wuthering heights similitude' just don't do a lot for me..o.k.

If any of Dr. Wierwilles family (immediate or remote) look at any of these posts I just want them to know that I for one remain very thankful for his ministry. He may have had some personal short-comings, but spiritually he set me and my family on the 'right track'. In fact, as I have posted before, some of my childrens lives were spared as a direct result of what I learnt through his ministry. For that I will remain ever thankful. I'm sure he was tempted at times to make his doctrine a 'bit closer' to mainstream churches way of thinking in order to 'get more Christians', which is a very common thing for churches to do, but he 'stuck to his guns', so to speak. If I were any of his family I would feel more pride than shame.

"If all truth is relevant, there is relatively no truth"- VP (still stands me in good stead)

Thanks for your input Jung...Freud too !!

I posted my take on it...'asleep in Christ' (dead) ties in with 'many are sickly and weak and many sleep' (dead). I also took CM's abuse as directed at me as well, along with Todds threats. A real 'holistic' thread me thinks. My take on the threads original question stands as read above.

Geesh...hit a raw nerve there. I myself tend to not so much look at the posts themselves as much as the 'whole intent' behind them. And basically, when I look at Todd and Clays posts (especially as of late) I would have to say you two are into some 'heavy ....' and unfortunately I don't mean the good kind. The way you two are so quick to spew that vitriolic threatening cr*p out, leads me to believe that we're working for two differn't Lords. To think that either of you could humiliate me more than my bro-in-law and other twi leadership did after I left is wishful thinking on your part.

O.k. heres me in my (strident, a*sehole, belligerent self)...Clay..question for ya. Are you and Todd trying to head up some sort of 'spiritual' club; ?.. it's just the vibes I get from your posts.

Clay....one doesn't need chapter headings or divisions for 'remote' or 'near' context. Them which are 'asleep' also ties in with 1 Corinthians 11: 30 " For this cause many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep" - Paul.

Are you stalking me ??

Actually Laleo...the 'current tone' here on GS was formed by peoples responses to Sogwaps posting, Freuds posting, Jungs posting, Paws posting. None of which I posted on (except for Paws). I'm sorry but I won't be used as a scapegoat for them who 'presumed', 'postulated', 'speculated', 'flamed', 'insulted' on those threads. As I said to Tom, I believe that those posts indicate where the root of the real problem lies. Just look at the last couple of 'stone throwing' posts !

That is precisely why I don't 'personally' name call, or get abusive Socks, I leave that up to others, however a couple of other points from those scriptures I can take something from...thanks !

Naw...I 'suspect' your *itch comes out when you don't get your own way (like another foot stompin, chest beatin' poster here) !! Hey...no names mentioned here o.k. ..If anyone mentions a name they would have to associate that name with what I just said...so don't assume o.k. !!

Well said Johno, they did for me as well. In fact, it was a whole bunch of miracles that got my family and I to Rome city so that we could undertake 'leadership training', etcc... and whilst in there we got to see some 'real' revelation happenin too. Well, o.k. not a lot, but stuff that was 'right on' for me and my family. Also, I've found 'believin' = receivin' might have some 'flaws' but try tellin' that to an 8 year old girl who was awakened out of a deep coma instantaneously whilst being ministered to, or a middle aged lady with a fractured wrist who 'felt' the bones come back into place in the middle of a teaching, or my Mom who waited at some lights after they tuned green (even with cars behind her honking) because she audibly heard God tell her to wait, then to see a van run a red light and hurtle through the intersection that she would have just entered, or...my God I could go on and on, but like they say these are MY testimonies and I don't expect anyone else to necessarily believe them. Like I said..maybe some 'superfluous flaws', but the 'nuts and bolts' I believe to be correct.

pps..and as I've stated before, the signs, miracles, wonders I have witnessed and been involved with even after leaving twi 'attests' TO ME that there is ample fruit in my life in my work for Jesus Christ. I'm not interested in being a 'lard- ar*e' pseudo- Christian for HIM, that's probably where myself and other posters part our own ways.

And on this thread I posted on, I 'deliberately' did not mention any names or org. Abi was the first to bring it up. Why ? I don't know..maybe she was in one of her (in her own words) female dog moods or *itch moods. And (in her own words again), she is not ashamed of acting that way. So why try to shame other people for (supposedly) being a male dog, or an *ss-hole (as Belle so eloquently puts it) ...yeah, real classy Belle. Tom..to get back to your question...come on, the way Sogwap, Freud and Jung, CKmckeon not to mention a number of other first time and 'new' posters get 'jumped on' here....who REALLY has the problem ?? Hell, EVEN Paw got jumped on when he brought this up !! So, I ask again...who REALLY has the problem with 'mind-set', 'reading into things', 'suspicion '(evil or otherwise), 'stone throwing' etc... I believe this is what is frustrating for Paw. Who really displays these symptoms Tom ?? Thats me off this thread (probably) p.s. and I don't know why you would be confused about me...I've probably got one of the most transparent curriculum vitaes here on GS, I post what I believe, I hardly ever 'flame' or 'abuse' posters, i don't hide behind a made up GS 'handle'...??!!

Why not go back to near and remote context, what it is NOT saying, scripture build-up etc...?? These are after all 'good' keys to the words' interpretation ( if one believes the authority of the written Word ) ?? If however, one does not, may I ask, "why bother discussing it in the first place" ??

Thanks for getting honest Abi. I don't mind being called names at all, if that's yer penchant, I never complained about being called names. (note : you called yerself a 'stone thrower, *itch etc..) something I would never do.. I've never complained about Belle jumping in either to 'valiantly defend her fellow sistahood' and thump her chest and again offer to be a moderator (God help GS if that ever happened) I defend my beliefs here against all-comers whether they be 'new-ager', 'wiccan', 'jw', 'agnostic', 'lsd's' whatever....as many of my posts attest to. And I believe that is my right on this forum, no matter what some of you 'thought police' think. If Paw only wants VP, PFAL mockers and haters posting here, then I guess he will 'moderate' me. But I can at least put my hand on my heart and say that I have never spewed out venom towards a fellow poster the way a few of you have.

Sorry Abi... but if you are now trying to 'weasel out' by saying you did not call me names on this thread, then i will have to call you a darn liar..simple. My point was made in what I said. No names or org. mentioned by me, yet you and a couple of others 'read into it'. You assumed, (another point brought up on another thread). DO YOU GET IT ?? NO names or org. mentioned, just an example given by me of what I thought 'throwing stones' is ( ON TOPIC) DO YOU GET IT ?? NO names or org. mentioned by me, names and insults fired by you...HAVE YOU GOT IT ??!! You see, Belle has stated a number of times here she has people like me on ignore..but then jumps right on in, with excuses like "I just couldn't let this go by" or "when I see someone I care about being lambasted" etc.. Belle, either mean what you say or don't grandstand and make untrue statements, it tends to make your posts a bit 'hard to believe'. Now, can someone please get the thread back to 'throwing stones' ??

Jim...if a subject is open for discussion and a persons beliefs have no relevance to the subject involved, then there really is no such thing as 'throwing stones'. And therefore, the discussion is nothing more than...discussion ! 'banter', 'gossip', 'intellectual stimulation' call it whatever one will !! Is that all GS is, in it's least common denominator ? A 'time filler'...fill in the blanks. In response to Abi's question about me. Some of you know...I am involved in ministry, fellowship with an awesome bunch of belivers, have a secular job with a company car, am paid $45,000 a year for 15 hours of work per week, have a gorgeous wife of 23 years marriage, have six terrific kids and four beautiful grandkids, am living in a beautiful country, have wonderful health, am a 'little bit' over my weight for height and age ratio, believe that God is GOOD always and the devil is BAD always, have personally been involved in 'miraculous' healings (including an 8 year old girl INSTANTANEOUSLY awoken out of a coma), are FIRMLY grounded in my beliefs and am SO, SO, SO, blessed beyond words. I have one pet peeve...people in 'glass house throwing stones' !!

p.s. Abi..why throw out insulting, abusive names...to me, you are counteracting the EXACT messages brought up in the posts about 'where is the love', throwing stones', etc.. ? Can anyone bring up ONE post where I 'flamed', 'abused', 'insulted' Mo ?? And yet, you and a couple of others cannot refrain from pouring abuse at those who 'stick to their guns' when it comes from VP's teachings !! Maybe the disruption and negative feelings on posts really don't come from our corner ? In fact, when looking at certain posts, the first tirade of abuse tends to emanate from your ilk.

Hey Abi...no names or organizations were mentioned by me...is this an example of someone 'reading into' a post ? I think that happens a lot here at GS and has been acknowledged by you. Raf...a piano really has 88 keys ?? Many notes are nice but...most of the posts on GS are about the same song. The song remains the same !

except that the asleep (dead) in Christ mentioned in Thessalonians also 'ties in' with majority of scriptures in O/T and N/T concerning the 'mortality' of the soul. Which also 'ties in' with the fact that no-one hears from the dead in this life, whether that dead soul was a saint or sinner.

To me an example of 'throwing stones' would be someone involved in , lets say, a church with wacky, weird, hypocritical beliefs, criticizing VP's teachings as being weird, wacky, and hypocritical. What say you.....?

It took Selina and I about 2 years to catch up on all the lost sleep; bless patrol, studies, set-ups etc..!!

Paw...I know you and I have our running battles pm'ing each other but thanks (genuinely) for what you do here. I think a 'balanced' forum is what we should all be helping you to achieve.TWI never got the 'balance' quite right and look what happened.