Twinky

Roy ... what exactly is an Atheist Christian???

They could try teaching about the generosity and lovingness of God. They could try reading and teaching from the gospels, about the exemplary life of Jesus. They could try teaching humility, respect, generosity, not esteeming others greater than oneself, making themselves servants (ie really serving) others. They could try teaching "love" as being tender, and being like a nursing mother with their flock - instead of practicing "tough love" and bullying their flock. They could try teaching hospitality, and opening their doors to all, including the homeless and filthy off the street (think: what might be in Plurality Palace), those with addiction problems; those who need a break from the hardness of their lives. By "teaching" of course that would be by example, not by the mere words of their mouths. Waysider...really...there is sooo much more that they can teach. As to the things you mention in your opening post - can't say they've ever helped me in my relationship and walk with my Father. Worse, they've been a hindrance.

Rascal, I remember all of those statements. Wasn't there also something ... A request from a leader is just as much the Word of God as a command in the Bible ...? If a leader tells you to get a bucket of [water - or some such], you need to obey that just as you would a command from God. Maybe that was something from LCM's VP-worship book.

Johniam, as that's not about an outrageous statement in a TWI meeting, you might want to carry it on in your own personal soapbox. Johniam's personal soapbox

bump Hi Johniam, do carry on here...!

Not an option, though, for Internationals...we were expected to attend. The mighty US calls. For such reasons, the US is not seen favorably by overseas countries. However, if compelled (as TWI did) - well ... you just did it. I don't know how many US believers ever managed to visit Gartmore - was hardly running long enough. It really would have been much better to build up local expertise, dealing with the local culture, country by country... but TWI never operated that way. "Our way or no way." And it really didn't work in other countries. All that happened is that people were totally put off. And I agree with you, BA: I really don't think US believers would willingly make the trek regularly, year after year, to such an event. To ... such an event. Even if they did feel obliged to trek long distances across the US to such an event in Ohio. So what are we seeing here? It's wicked (good word, that, "wicked") to withhold lawful taxes. Does the IRS, or other countries' governments, lawfully require residents to pay taxes (tribute)? Yep, they sure do. Therefore, should one pay taxes? Yep. 'Fraid so. I don't see wiggle room here to maintain two sets of books. I'm sure God can cope with only having his share and not a part of Caesar's share also. The choice is : give Caesar (the government) what is rightly due to it; give to God what is rightly due to God. The rest is one's own. This account appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Three times: complete!! So in keeping two sets of books : who was TWI serving? (Like verses appear in Matthew and Luke) But of course - if you discourage (or worse, disallow) the Gospels and looking at the life of Jesus ... hey, what does his example matter, anyway? We live under grace now. Yeah, right.

Hmm, I thought it was Michael Jackson who copied AoS? Wasn't the "moon walk" devised by someone in TWI? And then, there was "His-story" which was some name devised by TWI. For all this "MJ copied TWI" - one day my Corps was told to watch a video of MJ dancing. Because even if he was so possessed, we could still learn from his skill in dancing. Or something like that. Too long ago to remember, really. Or maybe not "off topic" - they're certainly outrageous statements. Just not the most outrageous.

Wow, GSG, there was a real doctor in the house! And yes, as a chemist, you would be a Ph.D-type doctor not a MD-type doctor, but you're a highly qualified man nonetheless and justly entitled to the accolade. Bet DocVic never called you "Doctor" though.

GSG, were you a doctor at the time you were in TWI? And did anybody call you "doctor"? We could call you "DocG" here if you like. Or even just "doctor" - tarnished though that title is.

Double sets of books ... I've heard this before - perhaps from you, DWBH, perhaps from others. TWI's outstanding honesty and integrity is beyond compare. /sarcasm/ Love the way they set the standard and follow that principle, "Render unto Caesar [or the IRS] what is Caesar's..." This is that same organization, yes?, that said that ABS must be "donated" from gross income - not that income left after tax - because otherwise one was putting "man" before God, hmm? Thing is, they could have offset the charitable expenditure against tax anyway. That's if there'd been any charitable expenditure. Makes me wonder how much any actual charitable expenditure may have been pumped up.

Waysider, I'm bringing brown sauce, none of that tomato ketchup stuff for me. I'll bring some of that good old West Country Zomerzet cider too. Slurp, lovely,

Striking the difference in presentation in the two pictures. The first, they look nice, casual, a bit hippyish, naive kids. The second, they look seriously "Way-ized" in formal "casual" poses - already in the mold.

What Geer did was decide to institute an annual European get-together. He wanted that to become the venue for (at least) European believers. I went to such an event, in Amsterdam. It was a really great time, marred only by the presence of Geer. Then of course Gartmore was ready and events started happening up there. And that is a really good idea. Saves unnecessary expense and trekking across the world, and European travel is easy and can be done in many ways to suit time and budget. Enables people with a non-US outlook to meet and deal with the issues they face in a more acceptable manner. Or could have been. Geer's festival/get-together wouldn't be in midsummer, but was to be in winter (December/Jan). But that's not how it worked out. It was a power-grab. And even if it weren't a power grab, it could so easily have become a burden on European believers - all have to go to the European event, and then all have to go to the US event. It still doesn't address transport issues for other overseas believers - in Australia, New Zealand, India, Zaire (who were in fact supported by TWI, yes they were), even Scandinavia, who still have to get over an ocean somewhere. But it did give (or would have given) a choice and perhaps a cheaper option.

For sure a cash cow if you can make people come to it by laying on them a guilt trip if they don't make a Rock trip. For believers who lived overseas, it was a really big expense, what with air fares and all. Even if a discounted air fare to somewhere frequently visited was available, there were add-on costs to more local airports and the cost of getting from the airport to HQ. To not be able to make it to the Rock was to recognize that the transport expenses were huge, when coming from countries where wages are not at US levels and disposable income may not be much. One year, some attempt was made in the country where I was living to cater for faithful believers who couldn't afford all that expense. LCM's response: "F*** 'em, if they can't be bothered to get here, they can take care of themselves back at home." (Maybe that was part of a general response more aimed at US believers - but that's how it came down to us, overseas.) Some years, there were offers to pick up Internationals from Dayton or Columbus. But not every year. And sometimes it was just the kindness of staff who recognized the additional difficulties posed for Internationals, and went and collected them anyway. Out of all the money coming in...wouldn't it have been kind to share a little with the overseas people by covering the small expense of collecting them from an accessible airport? (After all, what was the motor coach for? - not that that was around in my time - but coaches and buses can be hired for a day or a week.) There wasn't even any help for International Corps whose only means of transportation was flying. So after my WoW year (so part-time wages) I still had to find full air fare back to the Rock. My WoW family clubbed together to give me something towards my expenses, bless 'em. HQ did give me the entrance ticket free and vouchers for food. Big deal. I didn't think of it at the time, just accepted it. International outreach? International grab, more like.

My Corps sis spent her interim year as Mrs W's housekeeper. She didn't enjoy it, for so many reasons. Always on call, on duty. Skivvy for everything, everyone. Never able to share any time with other interim Corps who were also working on campus. Worn out with - nothing. Yeah, Sky. Which of 'em hazarded their lives for the gospel? Which of them was there to serve? And which was there to be served? Back to topic now: does anyone know who was in the Zero Corps? And what has happened to them since that time? Have any gone on to train and serve as real ministers?

Dunno when you were in, sky, but LCM was the same, perhaps worse, denigrated whoever WC0 was - or no, perhaps that was WC1 - absolutely disgusted. Used his disgust at their lack of commitment to reinforce the unswerving commitment that we in rez were supposed to be developing. [Huh, do you reckon he ever knew any of them - ever?]. I was there when all those old-timers were announced as the "real First Corps" - Mrs Owens, Howard (I suppose), etc - I can't remember who was honored thus. But thinking about it now - I can't remember that Dorothea Wierwille was a part of the honorary "real First Corps". Even if she was "First Lady." Poor woman. Passed over...again. (Ugh, the ego of it all. :( )

Thomas, where do you get this information from? That's 6 allegations, of which I don't have too much difficulty with (2), but the other allegations? (BTW - "dilemma").

Hmm, Ham...you know you isn't really a Doctor, don't you? But is you really a Master? Is you even a squirrel? Hey, man,,, congratulations. It was a long hard slog, lotsa work. Well done. Time now to enjoy ...

Very pretty, Paw, but what does it do? I can't post a "hi!" on it.

I love camping. But when I got to RoA, it was as Corps and I slept in a huge tent with who knows how many other Corps women. And one year I was in a hut thing - were they called Corps-tels? Too many bodies, too hot, too sticky. Ugh. Give me the fresh air of a tent any time. I quite liked what I saw of the Rock but then I didn't have anything to compare it with. Hard work. Not too much time to explore and find out what was going on. This might be my venue for this year: Greenbelt Thousands of people. From a huge variety of Christian backgrounds. Or maybe no Christian background at all - they just want to be there. Loads of events, performances, teachings, presentations, stuff going on. Some noisy. Some quieter, more contemplative. There's a camping area for those who want; there's other accommodation ranging from cheap B&B to posh hotels. I might volunteer...they need stewards on the camp site. Edited: double post. (Why does it do that??)

Y'know, Waysider, it was all a part of his big joke at our expense. Here's a common colloquial definition for the verb "to doctor" - see definition 3 below doctor 1. Informal To give medical treatment to: "[He] does more than practice medicine. He doctors people. There's a difference" (Charles Kuralt).2. To repair, especially in a makeshift manner; rig.3. a. To falsify or change in such a way as to make favorable to oneself: doctored the evidence.b. To add ingredients so as to improve or conceal the taste, appearance, or quality of: doctor the soup with a dash of sherry. See Synonyms at adulterate.c. To alter or modify for a specific end: doctored my standard speech for the small-town audience.d. Baseball To deface or apply a substance to (the ball): was ejected because he doctored the ball with a piece of sandpaper. Free Dictionary You'll find similar definitions of this colloquial meaning in other dictionaries. So every time he was called "Doctor" - it was an acknowledgment of his fraud - that he had "doctored" the Bible that he taught. So despite your "he wasn't a real doctor" bit that you put in frequently - that's exactly what he was! But in a different sense. After all, it doesn't have quite the same positive vibes, to say, "Well, Fraudster said..."

Hard to "stand on your own" when your legs have been cut out from under you. Don't you remember in PFAL that VP said a believer will never have to stand alone again? Of course, that wouldn't be those who have been M&A'd and other believers have been forbidden on pain of their own "excommunication" from speaking with them.

No, no, Chockfull. It does stand on its own. Its own people, that is. Tramples all over 'em, in fact.

When were these photos taken, OldSkool? (Year) What would be attractive about her? To another of her persuasion, I mean...like her best friend, naming no names, but when last seen had a similar hairstyle. Is the attraction being the "power behind the throne"? (Though to be fair, perhaps some of us here aren't exactly the finest specimens of humankind, either.)

It's a good question, Roy.