Twinky

I Am the Sheep Gate – Fr Joseph Pellegrino So...standing in the gap is for defence and protection of the weak, and of what is valuable (sheep being "money on legs").

It sounds mean and belittling. "You got stabbed in the back. I got a paper cut on my finger. We've both been hurt. Now let's be brave and make like neither happened." Or maybe: "My dad's bigger than your dad." Sad that someone could write that, but you could ask if they meant it differently from how it comes across. If you care that much. Or you could just put them on Ignore and not open any more PMs from them unless they have a header "Apology." Chockfull - what came to my mind also.

I've heard this man Dietrich Bonhoeffer referred to by a number of church ministers and in Christian contexts. I know something of his history. Has anyone hear read any of his books, in particular the one of the thread title? Is it good? (s it readable? Worth getting? Or is it some heavy thing that takes some getting the head around because it's very theological? I think Geisha might have some knowledge; don't know about others of you. Extract: "Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace...is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him."

All praise to Him Who reigns above In majesty supreme, Who gave His farm for man to lie, That he might man redeem! Refrain Blessèd be the Name! Blessèd be the Name! Blessèd be the Name of Doc Vic! Blessèd be the Name! Blessèd be the Name! Blessèd be the Name of Doc Vic! His Name above all names shall stand, Exalted more and more, At God the Father’s own right hand, Where angel hosts adore. Refrain Redeemer, Teacher, Friend of none Once ruined by the fall, Thou hast devised enslavement’s plan, For Thou hast lied for all. Refrain ====and here's a verse that didn't appear in On the Way==== His Name shall be the Counselor, The mighty Prince of Peace, Of all earth’s kingdoms Conqueror, Whose reign shall never cease. Refrain

Exodus 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. In OT times, if a man took another wife, he had exactly the same duty to support all of them completely. Not permitted to favor the new wife above the wife of his youth (no sporting the new trophy wife over the wife who's now old and wrinkled). And still has to treat the new wife/wives properly too. I believe that in countries where polygamy is practiced, that's till the case. Can't show any favoritism. Must treat them all the same - generously. Feed them, clothe them, treat them lovingly. Well, Dotsie was fed and clothed...don't know about the duty of marriage (sexual intercourse). If a "spiritual" marriage, he has exactly the same duties to all his other "wives". (Sorry, Excathedra). Man, no wodner he needed so much ABS coming in...to support all those "wives".

Yes, Socrates. We all know now it's "saved a wretch" but in TWI speak, it was "saved a soul" for me and to others appears to have been "saved someone." Can you imagine St Vic calling himself "a wretch"? LOL.

I always knew this as: "saved a soul like me" - and so it states in the Blue songbook - song no 11. Why change from "someone" to "a soul"? Some sort of mind/body/spirit theology? Liked the sound better? Who knows?? Only the dead man. Yes, BA, it was that verse. I was surprised to hear it. Specially since it mentions "the way" in it.

They changed the lyrics "because they don't fit with the accuracy of the Word," so I was told - even as a new Wayfer. I accepted it then, sort of. There are some decent modern songs around - but there seem to be to be a lot more that aren't good. Mixed theology. Like this one: Here I Am To Worship ------Chris Tomlin Light of the world / You stepped down into darkness. Opened my eyes, let me see. Beauty that made this heart adore You Hope of a life spent with You Here I am to worship, / Here I am to bow down, Here I am to say that You're my God You're altogether lovely / Altogether worthy, Altogether wonderful to me King of all days / oh, so highly exalted Glorious in heaven above / Humbly You came To the earth You created / All for love's sake became poor Here I am to worship, Here I am to bow down, Here I am to say that You're my God You're altogether lovely / All together worthy, Altogether wonderful to me I'll never know how much it cost To see my sin upon that cross (x3) Here I am to worship, Here I am to bow down, Here I am to say that You're my God You're altogether lovely Altogether worthy, / Altogether wonderful to me (repeat) I'll never know how much it cost to see my sins upon that cross-- And there are many others like it that just leave me cold and wanting to run out of the building. There's this old song, Holy Holy Holy by Reginald Heber Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty! Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee; Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty! God in Three Persons, blessèd Trinity! And my church likes to sing this "variant" of the above song by Gilberto Barreto: Holy, Holy, Holy / Is the Lord God Almighty Holy, Holy, Holy / Is the Lord God Almighty Who was, and is, and is to come. Holy, Holy, Holy Is the Lord God Almighty Is the Lord God Almighty. which is fine words, but then, as the next verse< the church "worship leader" likes to sing: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus / Is the Lord God Almighty Jesus, Jesus, Jesus / Is the Lord God Almighty Who was, and is, and is to come. Holy, Holy, Holy Is the Lord God Almighty Is the Lord God Almighty. The worship leader hasn't got quite as far as: Ho-ly Spi-rit, Spirit / Is the Lord God Almighty So I don't mind that some lyrics of some songs have been changed. It just takes me by surprise when I hear different lyrics and sometimes new verses that I never heard in TWI. There seem to be several verses to Amazing Grace that TWI never sang - or maybe some mainstream churches are doing their own add-a-bit.

I didn't know Hank Williams wrote that song. And there's an extra verse of it too that I've never heard before.

Essence of the soap box is to keep John from derailing other threads with his butterfly mind that refuses to focus on the thread in hand. I for one am much more interested to read John's views on this thread than be so annoyed by his derailing activities on other threads that I want to tie him to a chair and make him write "I will pay attention" 1000 times. How he chooses to use his soap box is up to him. Certainly a very wide range of VP-related topics as well as other topics, have come up. Carry on here, John!

Does "truth" change? Or is it simply our understanding that changes? The "truth" was that the heavens revolved round the earth. Then Copernicus and other astronomers and thinkers showed othewise. Copernicus was persecuted by the church for his heretical belief. (In fact, he's only recently been "forgiven"!) Did the truth change? No. But human understanding did. Likewise other things that appear to be in conflict as "truths" may not conflict at all, when we have a bigger picture, more information. But we will never have all information. Therefore, our understanding is always going to be imperfect. Wasn't it Bride of JC who used to have a tagline, "Truth is not a 'what' but a 'who'"?

T-Bone, after all these years, are you still asking the waiter for Corps sponsorship?

Thanks for your long post, Socks. Funny what you forget. I remember this : that man needs a point of reference outside himself for learning - and that - truth needs a center of reference which is not the man seeking - and - But not this: the revelation of the Bible is necessary to the senses man to be complete. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ. The Holy Spirit takes the place of Christ in the Word in us. Perhaps that "absent Christ" stuff simply got "mislaid" because I heard so many times, "Christ in you, the hope of glory" so I never formed a sense of "absent Chjrist." I would imagine Jesus sitting beside me or walking beside me at times of difficulty. Explaining a better way to do things. You also said this: This from a "research" ministry that claimed it would change if Bible research showed errors in what they taught. We all know that didn't happen. No meekness - despite demanding that of others. There are aspects here that I am still confused about but I don't find much help from Church theology. But when it all gets too complicated, I just think, God looks on the heart, and as long as I keep it simple and try to do the best I can and try not to disappear into flights of "head knowledge" - God'll cover for where I'm wrong and will show me sooner or later where I'm wrong. I heard something startling recently. Might start a topic in Doctrinal about it.

Now this is a bit of a digression, but not really "off topic" as this thread currently stands. Hmm...I really don't remember this "absent Christ" stuff. To the best of my recollection, I heard it here. But no doubt a heap of you will tell me what session it appeared in, or some such. Was I actually asleep in class every time that bit came past? Was it more of a VPW thing than an LCM thing? But...I do remember feeling I'd lost all "awareness" of Christ - of Jesus - of gospel stories. There surely was an "absence of Christ" within TWI. At some point I came to a realization that I knew very little about him...about his earthly life...as a coherent thing. Just the odd sliver like sending out two-by-two, or harvest is plenteous. I'm ashamed to say, I emerged from the Way Corps having almost completely forgotten about him in any real kind of sense. God-conscious, yes; Christ-conscious - no. Because the gospels were a bit of a no-go area, really, with the greatness of the epistles to be studied and expanded.... (yawn).

Cool, T-Bone! :)

I don't know about the Way article, but the other guys, the Processeans, sound reeaally weird. :wacko:

Socks, I don't think it's anything to do with change - just with control. And busy-work. And more opportunities for them to put a downer on people. Which comes back to control. Not even self-control. Heck, wouldn't you just love to see one of Jessu's days marked out in 15 minute segments? His days were marked by sponteneity and response to the needs he saw around him and where he was asked to help.

Waysider, "they" don't want you to know who "they" are.

Oh boy, Old Skool, you really missed a treat with LCM's "spiritual anger." Two years of being in rez with that to cope with...was a real treat. But you get me thinking. He'd go on about being "spiritually angry" and he was "spiritually suspicious" of various people (usually accusing them of being homosexuals, homo fantasisers or homo sympathisers). I have no recollection of emotions of "spiritual joy" or "spiritual excitement" or "spiritual delight" or anything that might be associated with "positive" emotions. Funny, that. I do remember being quite excited about some event - Adv Class?? - and skipping down the corridor in joyful expectation. My Corps Coord at the time was really down on me and told me to stop being so emotional. By the time he'd finished lecturing me, I couldn't care less about the event.

Thomas, don't you realize that LCM was spiritually angry? Not sure anger management classes can cope with spiritual ... truths trash. His version of it, anyway.

Welcoming someone isn't "love bombing," Johniam - it's just saying hello. I liked it when I first started posting here and people welcomed me. Didn't feel like "love bombing" then - just that I'd been noticed and was welcome. Didn't you like that? When you first joined GSC or one of its predecessors? New posters can say what they like. So can you. But do try to stick to the topic sometimes. And don't keep playing the same old record.

That doesn't sound like Joyce Meyer. Are you really quite sure about that, Geisha?

I don't recall any interest in SIT or any other things like that when I was growing up in the church. In fact, church was so boring that I left. No Pentecostals near where I lived. I wanted to see exciting things like those recorded in the book of Acts. I met a WoW and he showed me that that was still available. Now had I met someone else from any church that SIT or was convinced that the power demonstrated in Acts was still around, I'd have gone with them. Now, there seems to have been a revival. Lots of churches where I live expect SIT and other demonstrations of the spirit. They all say that this has become much more common since about the 70s. It's the new normal. This is nothing to do with TWI influence. It's probably my generation and younger, seeking something other than meaningless ritual and wanting to know God better. As regards the other manifestations of the spirit - I don't know that TWI got TIP correct, nor WoK or WoW, nor anything else. A person who looks to God and tries to do as would please Him probably operates WoK and WoW much more than they realize.How many times have you "just known" about something, or "just done" something that was exactly right - visited a friend in despair because you were passing the door, or rang just as someone needed an answer to prayer, or such like? You can't legislate for such things. You can't teach them. The advanced class should probably have laid out specific examples from OT and NT, but made it much more plain that quiet time with God may well be the most important. Just quiet time, so that you could learn to hear that still small voice even more clearly. Not "fellowship" time with others - but space to think and reflect. Alas, as with most stuff at TWI, space to think and reflect was in short supply.

Hello Tony. You're a late arrival at the cafe - unless you posted here under another name - but nonetheless welcome. There are quite a lot of threads here in About The Way and in Open about the special phrases and terminology used in TWI.