Twinky

Oh for crying out loud. Johniam, why do you hijack every thread? Why is it always about YOU? You hide behind VPW and you distract every thread. Now you have parsed a sentence of a few words to make it fit your doctrine (which is nothing to do with this thread anyway). You understand the WORDS and you understand (you think) the GRAMMAR but you DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MEANING and that pretty much applies to everything you say. Johniam, please START YOUR OWN THREADS if you want to argue. Others ARE trying to stick to the point. Hey, I'll help you, then others can get on with the matter in hand.

Oh, T-Bone, I do enjoy your posts! Those excepts you posted are rather chilling. There's a balance somewhere. Not fundy refer it all back to the Bible stuff; and not touchy-feely secular stuff either. Both can end up as "head knowledge" without the wisdom of proper application.

Some have started their own "rogue twigs" - but they just meet together without demanding money. A few meet together and do want money. I know of one that did...it never thrived and is now defunct. The leader just seemed to want money even though he was adequately provided for financially by other means.

Johnia, it's not CFFM's money. It's given to them in trust to use it to help those in need. Like money was given to the apostles to redistribute to those in need. Not to be used for their own personal ends. Sure, some of those ends will include salaries for paid staff (not begrudging that) but it's not to be held in a bank account gathering interest when there are people with genuine needs out there. It's like the manna that was received in the desert. Use it straight away or it will go bad. Manna only kept two days over the Sabbath. Likewise a heap of ABS that's kept "turns bad" and makes those who "guard" it think of it as their personal property. But it isn't. In effect, they're stealing it off those who do have needs. Back to the topic, johniam. Do please stop being so distracting. Go start your own thread. Stop hijacking other people's. All you do, in fact, johniam, is make me think that CFFM is doing good. Because the model you keep holding up,VP, is so clearly bad, and you are obviously unable to say that about CFFM. Thanks!

Anyway, this thread has been derailed and is going further off track, thanks to Johniam. This thread is NOT about TWI or VPW or any such. What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it, or the believers who at least put the money in the coffers. A few of you have suggested that, yes, it does. It does seem more open to giving away the money to those in need. I'm pleased to hear that. Any more comments about CFFM?

johniam said: mmm - What happened to "freely you have received - freely give"? Or is it, then, because you charged me for a Bible class, that gives me the right to charge someone else? I don't think so! Who did Jesus "charge"? Who did his disciples "charge"? Who did Paul, Apollos, other early gospel-spreaders, charge? But Simon the magician wanted to know - so that he could charge. And he was briskly dealt with. There is much condemnation of those "who think themselves to be something." That is, those who self-promote. Christians have no business "marketing" themselves. They are to reckon the old man dead. They die to self, live to Christ. Therefore, johniam, shouldn't they be marketing their "new man" - their Christ - shouldn't they be "marketing" Christ? (Except that if they announced the price - who'd pay? It only costs you - yourself!) The god of this world wants people to idolize people, bands, groups, events. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has a rather different perspective. He makes blessings fall on the rich and the poor, the saint and the sinner. Without charge. Just because he likes to give.

And does this instruction in counselling also go as far as saying, go and help that person with their "physicals"? Does it suggest, when you're round at their house inspecting for cleanliness, that you haul out the vac, wash the pots, help with the laundry, etc etc? Because if you could help them live in a physically cleaner tidier place, you just might find their depression might lift a little. Heck, there were enough higher-ups who expected twiggies to go help clean their houses and yards. And they (the BCs etc) were perfectly capable of doing their own housework (except of course they didn't have the time because they were "moving the Word"). How about helping someone who for a while couldn't help themself? Oh...no...that wouldn't work. That would stop the counsellor from "moving the Word" elsewhere. Gotta keep reaching out, hey.

I never thought it particularly introduced doubt. Well, no more doubt than you can have about any future. I've always looked forward to the next life to come. which I don't expect to be like this life that I have now. But in the life that I have now, I'd like it to be the best that it can be. And I think that happens by living a Christian lifestyle as well as is possible. It opens the eyes and heart to the abundance that's available in a relationship - with God, with friends. Heart-sharing, caring, supportiveness...love. Not necessarily abundance in physical wealth.

To be able to counsel someone requires both detachment and empathy. Empathy, to try to understand where the counsellee is coming from. Detachment, to be able to see the overall situation and to guide the counsellee out or through. From a careers advice website: At every level in this very basic list, TWI failed at "corporate" level. There were some people who were "good listeners" and those with difficulties genuinely warmed to them and sought their advice. But generally, "counselling" sessions were a sort of excuse for asking intrusive and irrelevant personal questions. And for spying on individuals - maybe the counsellee, maybe people associated with the counsellee. To think that LCM had fancied himself as a psychologist. Isn't that, supposedly, the degree he took? (That's what he told my Corps, anyway - before dissing all psychologists as charlatans.)

Okay, this one isn't about TWI. It's about a TWI "offshoot". TWI sits on a big pot of money comprising the value of the land it owns (in various locations) and a shedload of money held in the bank in various forms. I have no idea about what CFFM might own, or not. I'm not bothered about that. It's the hang-over of TWI-thinking that's worth a look. I'm just wondering what CFFM does with the "ABS" or whatever they call it. And class costs and materials. What use that gets. Clearly there are salaries for people on staff. Clearly members of staff travel to teach in locations other than the home base. Clearly there is upkeep on buildings that they own or lease. These are legitimate expenses. I know from what I did with the leadership in another country that event costs were carefully worked out so that they didn't cause too much difficulty for the believers - in fact, costs for some events were slightly subsidized from funds held by that country. I doubt that could be true of all CFFM events. But perhaps it is. But apart from (possibly) funding their own events - does anyone know of what CFFM might do with its funds to help the wider community? Do they contribute to local initiatives for homeless, to provide meals at the soup kitchen, to help fellow non-CFFM Christians? Do they support locals who have had emergencies - support in case some local carpenter was injured and unable to work; a woman whose husband had deserted her and the kids; a family where a child had been hospitalized a long way away? Do they use the funds to help at the local hospital, at the night shelter, kids' club, or anything else? Do they support their own members who might have trouble? A sudden emergency - a vital piece of household equipment breaks down - a tree crashes through the roof - a family member overseas is in desperate trouble - or even just - an individual simply cannot make ends meet despite all reasonable budgeting? Does CFFM share funds out - does it have it all "in common" or it is - you share with me, and I'll guard it from everyone? There may be publicly-accessible accounts somewhere that are available. And there will be some here who have experience with CFFM.

Here you are, OldSkool.

God expects us to forgive, out of thankfulness for what we have been forgiven for. But at human level - we can't demand forgiveness from anyone. We can ask for it, expect it... but demand it? No. That would be like tearing the wings off a butterfly and wondering why it didn't flutter round any more. "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" means, I think, that the perpetrators of heinous acts don't understand the big picture, they don't understand God's plan, they have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Sure, they know what their physical actions are. But they don't understand what their actions mean, or the repercussions from their actions. Again, like a little kid pulling the wings off a butterfly - knows he's doing it, but doesn't understand what the purpose of the wings is, how they work. Now why don't perpetrators have the proper understanding? One reason might be simply lack of willingness at purely physical level to understand what they're doing. Lack of empathy. Lack of consideration. Or misguidedness based on wrong information. Another reason might be that their minds are so spiritually blinded (aka, possession) that the necessary part of their brain really doesn't function correctly. They genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the best in whatever part of their brain is still "thinking." So they have to be forgiven for [allowing themselves to be] being spiritually deceived. I always thought that those words at the crucial time of the crucifixion were JC's acknowledgment of the spiritual forces in play at the time. This was the great battle of good and evil, and the human actors were just bit players and as dispensible as the clothes they wore. That was why he sought forgiveness for them - for their very human frailty.

Pawtucket - why indeed? You don't suppose the BC was a part of it in some way? Or condoned it by not speaking out earlier? It seems a very strange response on the part of TWI.

I think this quote from one of the scammed investors explains a lot: But the idiots went ahead and handed over their retirement fund to Hirschfield anyway. Hadn't they heard - if it sounds too good to be true - it probably isn't true. I'm not excusing Hirschfeld. But his victims were drawn into it by their own lust (greed) which opened the door to Hirschfeld taking the opportunity. If any remaining innies had any sense - they'd see the discrepancy between smokin' out all those horrendous spiritual suspects early on (the homo and debt purges) - few if any of whom were guilty as alleged - and the failure to smoke out the real suspects - the Hirschfeld fraudster(s). Perhaps you just have to say TWI can't see their "own" type of filth - they can't spot a scammer - and they can't spot practicing homosexuals either.

NY,it's not Juedes who set up this forum! But he has posted here, and some of his articles have been posted at length. Say thanks to Pawtucket! His is the hard work. Many others have contributed to the predecessors of TWI and others are carrying on the work elsewhere. There's a group on Facebook, if you're interested, and another forum elsewhere - Exwayvision.

Hap, I knew some great folks in Denver, long ago. I wonder how many of them are still around? Or, were, maybe. Other places in Colorado, too. Sad.

I have to disagree with you. I think there is a lot to be learned about spiritual maturity from TWI. And especially from the programs it ran. Chief of those, the Corps program. The important thing to know, however, is that the spiritual maturity begins AFTER you have done these AND GOT OUT, and really start to THINK about what happened, what you saw, what you did, what others did. When you start to think about how those things line up with Biblical principle, and learn "What it is" and "What it is not." When you understand what you did not get "taught;" how you learned not to engage with those you were supposed to help; when you should rejoice with those who rejoice, and when you should weep with those who weep. When you realize our multi-faceted God has more than the facet shown by TWI. When you grasp those things, then you start to gain spiritual maturity. And it's as fast-track as you can learn to think again.

I never heard it in that context. I heard of this in the context that you simply don't share everything with your spouse. You might be "working" with someone - counselling - and you don't go telling other people's confidences. But then again, knowing now what I do about some of the "counselling" that went on...that "working" with someone might mean you wouldn't dare share with your spouse what you'd done. Not unless you wanted a frying pan upside the head or at least an almighty row...no, that would require a spouse with "normal" reactions to infidelity. Lockbox.... There is a time and place for keeping things quiet, not blabbing about. But not quite in the context taught by TWI.

Who, what, where??? News, please, OldSkool. Maybe they're running people off so that they have fewer people overall to [have to] share that pot of money with.

Very funny, T-Bone. You know, though, that a fundamental thing that escapees need to know, to really know, that's absolutely completely completely know - is that : GOD LOVES THEM - STILL - wherever they are and GOD IS NOT DISPLEASED WITH THEM. GOD IS NOT ASHAMED OF THEM, and THEY ARE NOT A DISGRACE TO HIS FAMILY. GOD DELIGHTS IN THEM ONLY LEGALISTS REJECT THEM That maybe has to be understood before "what's available" can really clip in.

Outandabout, do I take it you're a fan of Red Hot Chili Poopers?

"There's no such thing as bad publicity!" Got 'em noticed. But I don't know that I'd want to drink anything there (shudder).

When I was in rez (early 90s) it was kelp with everything. Mealtime shakers on the table: salt, pepper, kelp. Everything had to have a sprinkle of kelp. Oh. And fertile eggs. There was a craze for fertile eggs - because they had "life" in them. Gruesome. You also had to have water with a meal - never tea or coffee which "interfered with digestion" (also costs more than plain tap water). But sometimes (some months) you didn't have to have water with a meal or within 1/2 hour of a meal - because that interfered with digestion. Never heard of half the things mentioned on this thread. Postum? Figpep? Wheat berries? Chicory was put in coffee to stretch the coffee. Wartime remedy when it was hard to get coffee.

I get on just fine with other Christians...because I concentrate on what we have in common, not what doctrinal differences cause division. I don't find the need to spout off about things that I might believe differently, if they don't seem receptive. Who am I to condemn another's servant? Who am I to condemn my brother in Christ? I never thought about what profit there might be on the teaching tapes. But you're right. A nice little moneyspinner. Even if you only made $1 on each. Can't remember how much the Way mag was but that also must have made a healthy profit. No costs really. Staff articles already paid for (in staff salaries) or from occasional field staff. Photos from staff photographer. In house production. Printing costs not huge. I think they said it was the price it was because there was no advertising to defray the costs. But actually...all the costs were pretty much all paid anyway. Ridiculous as well when they expected everyone to have their own sub, not just share within families etc. Huh. BTW there are any number of good-quality church mags available FREE on a two- or three-monthly basis. Good thoughtful articles, too.

We seem to have moved quite a long way from whether or not VPW had a stroke whilst teaching at the Rock. Though it does seem established that he suffered a stroke whilst teaching at WIB.