Twinky

WG, you have no sense of fun. You don't like snowmen, snowballs, skiing? Where were they doing the skiing anyway? On that hill that's covered by sage brush, behind the camp? I remember standing out first thing in the morning on the top of the steps of one of those two storey log cabins - looking out over the length of the camp to some snow capped mountains on the horizon, and thinking, this is bliss. For some reason, there were hardly any other WC there - younger Corps arrived a couple of days later. But for a while - it was my private bliss. It was release from my prison of HQ. Sorry you didn't like your time there, OS, and that you found it like a prison.

That was, I think, from an "open concert" to which locals were invited. If they were hoping to win people by the brilliance of the performances, they'd probably have been rather disappointed. They'd most likely have left thinking, what was that? Loosen up! WG, you could explore their website direct...heh heh.

I posted something else too. Gunnison really does look superb. I never saw it in winter, only in spring for Family Camps. It was lovely then, too. I enjoyed my stay there, even though it was very busy and hard (fun) work. Lotsa happy memories.

Here are two songs from the TWI Fall Concert 2009. What you might notice is the absolutely rigidity of the singers' bodies. No hand movements, no swaying to the side - absolutely perfectly still. Their physical demeanor is so at odds with the jolly bouciness of the songs. As also is the jolly bounciness of whoever is conducting the singers. Perhaps the singers are so still so as not to distract from his "dancing." It struck me that it must be very hard - and joyless - to stay so very still - whilst maintaining a big smile on the face. Rejoice This is our Joy And it also struck me that this is Biblical rejoicing: And Michal was struck with barrenness, because she despised those who wholeheartedly rejoiced in God. Perhaps there's a lesson there. TWI, loosen up! Allow people to enjoy rejoicing!!! Don't choreograph so rigidly, either in making everyone stand still, or to "dance" in a very structured way. How long before TWI insists this link gets removed?

Thought some of you might enjoy this. Lovely location. This looks like fun - if a lot of work for Snow Patrol.

Broken Arrow, I find that a very entertaining thought.

Debt...what they say we "not members" owe them. Well, we owe God, but as he has no hands but our hands ... we can jolly well hand over the money to TWI. But what about their debt to us? We "owe" them money because of the "increase" we have acquired. As TWI might have it - we have that increase because of the Word they've taught us. I'm wondering if we paid in advance. Aren't they in debt to us? Isn't it about time TWI started teaching some honest "Word"? Then, maybe, everyone would benefit.

I think back on the time I was in. And the "lost years" - the time after I'd been kicked out and was in deep depression and incapable of sustaining anything. Incapable of returning to my pre-TWI career, making any decision or anything. The burden of guilt laid on me in TWI-2 was vile. I've missed out in marriage, in opportunities to bear children, financially, professionally. I was ... quite a nice person before. I became difficult; and after getting tossed out like a used diaper, became even more difficult to be around. Meltdown. Now I think of what I have gained. A deeper understanding of reaching out to others; of being compassionate, non-judgmental, of seeing the other side, and of a richer relationship with God, who has always been there for me, even when I was at my utmost lowest - a state of mind I would not wish on the person I hated most. I think I've been into parts of my mind that I wouldn't have ventured into before. And I think I'm a better, nicer, more caring person than I was before. TWI is, without doubt, a cost. But having paid the price (and we all have!) what to do with what you got? Make something positive out of it. !!! If nothing else - it shows you how NOT to live life; what to be wary of; how easily you could become like that bully in TWI. It gives you something to fight against and something to fight for. And I stilll say: some of the most awesomely wonderful people I've ever met have been ex-Way people, because of their genuine passion for the things of God and their efforts to live life in a Godly way.

Kicked themselves out?? That fits really well with "mark and avoid."

Beep beep beep! Escape, avoid, get away. Warning warning warning!!! This is what's a snare, a debt. In God's eyes, anyway. Puts someone at enormous risk - because the surety has no control over the actions of the person he is surety for - and whether the assured will fulfil his obligations. However, to take out a like debt in one's own name - leaves one with control and the responsibility to fulfil one's obligations. Of course, TWI could fudge this one by saying - it's not a debt for a "friend" but for a relative, and different things come into play. Ah no. No, no!! Alternatively, in TWI-think, maybe this could be extended - to cover not being surety for anyone at all. That'd be more TWI's style. Going further than the written words. But note this: See? We're not to be guarantors, or sureties. So all those leaders who got people (even family) to guarantee loans were inciting others to go against God's plan. It's so shirking of personal responsibility - to shove the real burden, the risk, of a debt off onto someone else. Who would do that to someone they loved? Especially if it might put the surety's own home at risk!! And don't think these debts aren't called in - nor that the assured always meets the payments. Too often, the beneficiary (the assured one) does default. And the guarantor faces serious problems. It happens.

Famous last words, perhaps? (I did wonder if this should be in Just Plain Silly)

I don't think Kristin would agree with you about it being a novel.

Let's not forget that "Easter" comes from Astarte, a pagan goddess. That's a name they didn't try to change. "Wonderful" would be okay because "Signs, miracles and wonders" are supposed to follow believers. Sonday Nissiday (Jehovah-nissi, =banner) Jirahday (Jehovah-jireh, =provider) Veepday (VPW -day - in celebration of Corps teachings usually being on Wednesday) Timday (named after Timothy, Paul's great follower Rohiday (rohi=shepherd, Ps 23) Shalomday (peace and something equating a day off) Of which I've just found 42, yes 42 Jehovah-names (where TWI has taught the spiritual perfection of 7). Ah well. 7x6=42, spiritual perfection on man?? Absolutely certain this was the reason. Help you to keep your mind going along the same track, way of thinking. Keep your hind legs trackin' with your front legs, as that man said. It just might not be PFAL if you "put it into your own words" by adding a word, subtracting a word...or daringly substituting a word...pretty soon you don't have the word of PFAL at all. And it's lazy. So very lazy, to be unable to give anything a fresh look. To draw something new out of a familiar passage in the Bible. To make you really think beyond what you already know. Because that way, you know that you now that you know just what the Bible says.

Or actually it could be :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: real laughable

heh heh heh heh heh oir maybe that should be :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: and then some.

You can be sure it'll be the faithful household's fault when she does die. Now if only one of the faithful household would push her off the OSC or baptize her for half an hour in the "Jordan".... (Just joking around, WayGB)

"No debt" policy was in earlier than you say, Oak. I know in the mid-80s people who wouldn't use a credit card unless they could pay it off immediately (next day) - because of the "owe no man anything" teaching. No debt came in very heavy about 1992, latest 1993. Probably fulminations before that. As to home mortgages, VPW started it off, really. There was a mortgage over ?Emporia? and he didn't like it, said it was wasteful of ABS and it was always something that money had to be found for first and foremost because of the threat of foreclosure if the mortgage wasn't paid. When the mortgage was paid off, the mortgage deed was (I understand) cut up into tiny pieces and given out to Wayfers. (I know someone who had a fragment taped inside his Bible, to remind him not to get into debt.) However, at that particular time, "debt" and the ban on it didn't extend to home mortgages, or at least, not with the viciousness that LCM managed to attach to it. LCM managed to make the whole thing go completely mad. He might have thought a lot different if he'd had to pay a commercial rent on that Chalet.

I'd say Paul is exhorting people to live peaceably in their environment. Put up with whatever governmental organization there is. Behave decently to all - always, everything within the concept of behaving decently. What would be the flip side? If everyone rejected their civil governments, there would be anarchy, chaos, people fighting people, every man for himself. And that certainly isn't Godly. Education, health services, roads, safety of food supplies, water supplies, sewerage, and heaps of other things probably wouldn't get done, or done so efficiently. You only have to look at countries where civil government is very poor or has broken down to see the result. Somalia, for example, hasn't had a government for over 20 years. A fine culture has broken down to piracy. Somalia Countries might not be able to wage war against other countries ... but then, they couldn't defend themselves easily either. So on balance, even a not-very-good government is better than no government at all.

Oak, there are enough debt threads already Perhaps you might like to revive one of those - give a bigger history, including from some who no longer post here. ClayJay, didn't realize it was so long ago. Unfortunately I was in rez in the early 90s. It was horrible. I mean, LCM and his tirades were horrible. And the atmosphere was oppressive. But I met some fine God-hearted people, most of whom got kicked out or crushed. When I got out, I did do my best but I also know I was too hard on some people, not intending to be mean, but "tough love" - even though that really cut across the grain for me. Because "tough love" was how I'd learned "to receive." I'm still looking for some people, to apologize.

One of the "stashed away" is the head of the BOD, ennit? Rosie doesn't seem to have included either retirement or dying on her schedule. Nor does she look like scheduling either of these in, in the near future.

Interesting to read this section in different versions. NASB treats verse 4ff For it [authority] is a minister of God... Holman puts it this way, as "government": A Christian's Duties to the State 1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the [authorities] are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. 7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor. Amplified starts "Let every person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities...those who resist will bring down judgment upon themselves [receiving the penalty due to them]. For civil authorities aer not a terror to [people of good conduct]." Definitely worth remarking that this is all in context of CIVIL AUTHORITY and not authority in the church, where these same verses are often used to beat congregations into submission. We have become so used to church hierarchies that this can be overlooked. These verses were written way before church and state became entangled and Christianity became the "state religion" some centuries later. And don't forget to consider 13:1ff in light of 12:21 - "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" - for, as 13:3 reminds us, rulers are not a terror to good works" (KJV) "not a cause of fear for good behavior (NASB) "Not a terror to [people of] good conduct, but to [those of] bad behavior." (Amp) Jesus lived under a regime that was considered vile and brutal by most of the oppressed inhabitants. He did everything without arguing and complaining. There's nothing to indicate that he opposed the regime as such; in fact, his behavior caused him to be held in respect by (eg) the centurion who sought help; and even by Pilate himself. We can also see passive resistance among the early Israelite women Puah and Shiprah who, whilst not protesting the order to kill male babies, just quietly ignored the order (Ex 1)...because they were subject to a higher moral law (of God). But Moses, who opposed with violence, was forced to flee.

Credit card???? So lemme get this right...it's okay to have debt for some things? Like entertaining each other? You're saying it was issued on TWI's own bank account? Not just from the toy bank that TWI operated? Not even a debit card - oh, no, that would mean that the holder had direct access to the bank TWI account. But - a credit card would allow TWI to maintain some control over the spending... "Oh, we didn't think that was a legit expense - so you can pay for it - not us." (edited for clarity)

I do hope that you & your family had a splendid "burn the chaff" bonfire with them thar goalposts.

Don't think spirits have "bodies" as such, though they can assume a form that looks solid and behaves like a human being's body. And spirits are discrete (Michael is not Gabriel; Elisha was surrounded by horses and chariots (and by implcation, riders and charioteers) that were identifiable but invisible to human eyes, 2 Kgs 6). Don't be misled by the word "body" in the text above. We have "bodies" of individuals, "responsible bodies" = statutory authorities and agencies, etc. We are the body of Christ...that same Christ who is seated in the heavenlies. But we are not all clones of an ancient Judean male. In our time, the word "entity" might sum it up better.

Okay, so I've been a bit busy and unable to review my thread for a while...talk quietly amongst yourselves...oh you have been doing. Interesting discussion, huh? Now this Bible college is teaching this: I am a spirit; I have a soul; I live in a body. Have always accepted that I have "holy spirit" or "spirit." And it's a temporary thing - because at some stage I will shed this rather wonderful body of mine and will become...something else. As the seed sown in the ground becomes something else. I have a (holy) spirit is rather different from I am a (holy) spirit Still pondering that one. Somehow it feels a thing that's completely different.