Twinky

Ah, got it. A cheese and ham pasty. Right. Is there anything else on the menu in this Cafe?

What's calzone?

Wah, those parting gifts, thank you gifts, and whatever. Give, give, give. Give your money, give your time. On reflection, I think I did go there. Early on, maybe my first few weeks in-rez, a large chunk of my in-rez corps went to empty and clean out a place prior to its sale and auctioning of contents. We went there with Jacque Horney. It was busy, hard work, and filthy with dirt and neglect and lots of spider webs, but actually it was a very enjoyable and relaxed time. Jacque was quite good fun. Even then, it was nice to be away from the strictness of HQ. I could see it had once been a beautiful place, but outside was beginning to look very tatty from lack of care and attention, and inside was scruffy and looked to be falling apart from damp in places. Not much time to explore or get a feel for what was there. I remember doing some work in the library. Gail had come from HQ to select any books she wanted back in Ohio. I must have been helping her by marking said books, or similar. She estimated the number of books in the library there as xxx thousand. When the books were all counted and boxed up into non-Ohio disposals and Ohio retention books, her estimate was very accurate. Impressive.

Yes, the boundaries got pushed and shoved all over the place. I recall from PFAL (and I've rarely heard anyone here discuss it) a bit about moving boundaries. Deut 27:17 ‘Cursed is he who moves his neighbor’s boundary mark.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ (NASB) And yet, that is precisely what PFAL and all other TWI materials proceeded to do. They removed the boundary marks in our minds - for some, perhaps a good thing but for many others, a very, very bad thing - the boundaries of common decency, honesty, integrity, physical contact, sexual contact, and moving through other aspects of self-preservation. Everything. It started before PFAL, actually; the first twig probably saw everyone getting hugs and maybe kisses, regardless of whether or not the newbie liked being hugged by strangers. It wasn't "loving encouragement" to grow and "be enlarged" by moving our own boundaries. No, in some cases it was a full-scale assault on decent, appropriately established boundaries. My boundaries got very blurred, very confused. I think they are back now in the places where I'm comfortable with them being. It took years, like Rocky, like most of us. God CURSES them, for moving boundaries. God is not the author of confusion.

Here's the same, but without the interjecting woman's comments (who does she think she is, it's not her story!)

Proverbs 2:6 New International Version For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. Maybe TWI has run out of other ways to make "the Word" incomprehensible?

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Let's not go that way, OldSkool. No policy regarding covid on their website, unless they have one well hidden. But you know what? We're all outa there, and what they think doesn't matter to anyone here. Unless you want to know, so that you can take the opposite view. Yeah, right.

Never went there; looks a seriously ugly place. And unkempt now, though doubtless it was immaculate when TWI owned it. Thanks for sharing.

By all means, drink mullein tea in reasonable (not excessive) quantities. I doubt it's effective against covid. Do get a vaccine as well. As for that daft bunch in Ohio: do they want to "believe God" to keep them safe? I think they'd recommend a vaccine course. And I'm certain the head honchos would get vaccinated. But either way: I just don't care what they say, think or do. Their opinion on anything is completely irrelevant to me.

D'yall want me to start a thread on this?

Oh, and while I was leading this team, the overall coordinator visited the team, spent time with each family, and then spent time with me to discuss team activities etc. He used to stay with my family to begin with, but later rented a nearby motel room. Asked me to visit him there, as my household was so busy. He did this two or three times. It seems he was after a different sort of teamwork, the sort that needs only two people and a bed. Tough. Unlucky in that.

I can't imagine how awful and completely bewildering that was for you all. I hope you all didn't get blamed for your lack of believing, that left him vulnerable.

Thanks, T-Bone. That "Corps Nazi" wasn't "me" at all, I've never been that sort of person. Not the way I was brought up; not the way I ever was before. Which shows you how badly bullied I was in WC training, that I should turn out like that. How my head had been screwed around with. Thankfully, I'm now with a truly outstanding, caring, church that really reaches out to the poorer part of our community. There's a strong, loving Christian presence in this city, and there are truly awesome people to look up to. I look on that WoW year and how I handled some aspects of it as my "What Not To Do" manual. And I have so much more compassion now than I had before going in the WC. We did see some awesome things, though, in that year. We saw deliverance in many people's lives (and in our own). Our twig was thriving, and people stuck around - one was so enthusiastic that we could hardly get him to leave our house (he was one of the two who went WoW the next year). We prayed, and lots of things came to pass. Once, one of our twig members went missing for some weeks. No idea where he was or why not responding. In a city of 1 million, we thought a bit, narrowed it down to a likely area, then went there as a WoW family, walked up some random street, knocked on the first door, and there he was. Bit like Acts 9:11.

Your daughter is a freak of nature to precisely the same extent that all of us are. And just like the rest of us, she is fearfully and wonderfully made. Made a little differently, perhaps, but still wonderfully. She's probably kind, loving, compassionate, and is clearly able to give joy to you, Tonto and many others. Which is unlike that aberration of nature, LCM, whose ability to be all those things is sadly impaired, and who left a trail of destruction rippling through many people's lives. T-Bone, have you read works by Henri Nouwen, in particular "Adam: Life of the Beloved"?

I can only say that I led a WOW team, we set goals at the beginning (I had to scale back on what some of my team wanted, they were so enthusiastic) we worked really hard and in fact I drove the team hard. Because in Corps training I had myself been driven really hard and had somehow lost my kindness and compassion. We had some good times, very good times, during the WoW year; we ran a couple of classes, and a couple of lads to whom we'd witnessed went out WOW the following year. Some amazing things, miraculous things, happened at various times. As a WoW family, we were successful. The other family in the team, led by my Corps bro, totally unsuccessful. But I made it unnecessarily hard for some in particular of my family, despite that I dearly loved them. I knowingly set a wrong example on many occasions (even a couple of times is too many). I wasn't the example of Jesus Christ that I should have been; I was the example of VPW and LCM and their thuggishness. Yes, I was the Corps Nazi that you all hated. Confession time: I made it hard for my WOW family and for my team (we were two families). If I could find any of them, I would most abjectly and humbly beg their forgiveness for giving them such a hard time. I am very sorry. I pray their hurt has healed.

I've felt inclined, at several points during this thread, to ask: "What do you think God is?" (note, that's a What, not a Who). It's not really the subject of this thread, so if you have any thoughts, just hold them for the time being.

Maybe in heaven - we'll all be autistic. Maybe "neuro-typicals" are in fact the oddities in the long scheme of things? Maybe that's why neuro-typicals make such a mess of things, are disobedient, and don't follow clear rules; whereas autistic people take things more literally and don't argue with themselves and their imaginations all the time?

Okay, you guys have considered whether an atheist can truly become a (Christian) believer, or vice versa. Now what of the (let's say) atheist, who converts to Christianity, then reconverts to (let's say) Islam. Or Buddhism. Or some Indian religion requiring worship of multiple gods. Has that person changed his/her mind? Had a true conversion experience? Still exploring, but never been truly convinced of anything?

My very first RoA (and first time at HQ) was spent as apprentice corps skivvying in the dishroom and in the meal tent. I had looked forward to a RoA and all the things it supposedly brought, and saw little to none of it. I also saw very, very few of my home twig, which was just a bit unkind since they'd flown from the other side of the world (as had I). And so proceeded all future RoAs that I was at. I often got lumbered with cleaning the portaloos, which I was glad to do because everyone likes a clean toilet; but it would have been nice to have enjoyed some of what was on offer. Funny story: one year I was scrubbing out toilets and a "roving minstrel" came to find me and sing me a song. The people who had asked this person to do so was a lovely family that I'd met at Family Camp a little earlier in the year, and they'd sought me out with great diligence because their little boy had really taken a shine to me. I was seriously surprised at this minstrel's visit, came out to see the family, we had a brief chat and I returned to duties. Soon after, that set of toilets blocked up. I'd been so surprised that I'd dropped the toilet brush down the portaloo...! A less funny story: my home twig were at my last RoA (diligent lot; very big airfares involved) and wanted to spend a little time with me. I was kept too busy and on the very last day was begrudgingly given 1/2hr to spend with them. It was a very cold day and one of them gave me a winter sweater (!) and I gave them a load of materials to take back to the home country, all my Corps notes etc, because I would be leaving myself in a couple of weeks after cleanup. How mean-spirited, though. Here I am, away from my twig, in the US; my twig from another country come to visit, and I'm not allowed (kept too busy) to see them... three years running. You'd think, half an hour or even an hour, over a week, wouldn't have been too much - but it was, apparently.

Nah, T-Bone, I knew you'd write a lot.

OldSkool's post on another thread encapsulates that "evaluation" I referred to above:

(I'm sure T-Bone is going to weigh in bigtime on this thread.)

It befits us all to gain new information, check facts as best we can, and evaluate the information and facts with the best critical thinking skills we can manage. That can lead us to change our mind on many issues. It's wise to gain further information from as many reputable sources as possible, not just stick to, say, only one or two news channels, only one or two authors/publishers/etc. Read widely, read divergent viewpoints, look at other cultures and their history etc. There are things that can be "taken for granted" because we have to have a starting point in this mass of information, but be prepared to evaluate those things taken for granted as well. Some "for granteds" aren't quite the firm foundation that they appear to be. We also need to separate "religion" or "belief" from rites, rituals and dogma of any particular church denomination; perhaps from any particular religion at all. The biggest thing to remember is that God cannot be contained in a box, and certainly not in the box of the human mind or imagination. Have a review of Jeremiah 29, and in particular consider the context of this: For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope This is part of a letter to people in exile, in Babylon. "Settle down and be happy," says God. "I'll come and get you later." The promise was to be fulfilled decades later. Some of those in exile died there. Some were able to return. But there was still the admonition to settle down in the land of exile. Perhaps some of those who have walked away from the faith will return to it. Perhaps they will die in their exile from the faith. God is not a vengeful God but will, I believe, still do what is possible to prosper those people and not allow harm. After all, "...your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Mt 5:45) We can all have times of doubt in the wilderness of our minds (however well organised our thoughts may appear to be). Some do walk away; they might return. Some enter a different sort of spirituality; who are we to judge? It's God who is the searcher of hearts. In western culture, which is primarily a Judeo-Christian based culture, it may be harder to really walk away, since very ancient tenets underlie our cultural norms. Is the walker-away then rejecting the "tat" surrounding religion, or is that person rejecting God? Upon what, then, does that person subsequently base his/her values? It may be easier to turn one's back on Christianity completely if raised in a different culture altogether - say, in China (no gods, or Confuscianism) or India (plethora of gods), an Arab-speaking country (Muslim) or an animist culture such as Amazonian tribes or in Borneo (animist), or in an African country that wasn't overrun with missionaries. If one returns to these backgrounds, a rejection of Christianity is more easily to be seen. For people with those backgrounds, they might be said (perhaps) not to have fully believed in the first place: but then, they have huge obstacles (social propriety - including risk to life and family) to overcome that unless they were serious in the first place, they wouldn't have claimed to be Christians.

Seems to me it's not only possible but happens, and has since the beginning of Christianity (as distinct from Judaism). 1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. There's no indication here that the "abandoners" "didn't really believe" - but rather, they did have belief - which they abandoned - because they were "deceived." And isn't deceit the first sin we learn about, in the Bible? There's no news but old news.